2021 NON AFL Thread - finance, ratings, participation etc.

Remove this Banner Ad

Status
Not open for further replies.
The Dolphins are running into problems over the name from some of their backers NOW - fair dinkum its a very basic issue that surely was discussed.


'The Dolphins have become embroiled in a naming scandal after local leaders threatened to pull millions in funding and slammed the NRL expansion club over the snubbing of Moreton Bay.
News Corp can reveal Moreton Bay Mayor Peter Flannery called a crisis meeting with Dolphins chiefs and accused the team of having an attitude that “stinks” after the club was named simply “The Dolphins”.
Queensland legend Petero Civoniceva and influential federal minister Peter Dutton are among a chorus of voices demanding Brisbane’s second NRL club be named the Moreton Bay Dolphins.

But in the space of a week the Dolphins have sensationally found an enemy in the council ally that provided $10 million in funding for their successful bid.'
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Got a point though.

Hard to see any sporting club succeeding in Australia without an identity.
NRL teams though are very commonly referred to by their nicknames, moreso than AFL clubs. For instance basically everyone refers to 'the roosters' rather than 'Sydney'.
 
Hi folks, only just discovered this thread, so apologies if this has already been extensively covered (though on a quick search I couldn't find much reference to it):

I just finished Hunter Fujak's book "Code Wars - The Battle for Fans, Dollars and Survival". This is a topic that fascinates me. It's amazing, considering Australia's unique status as the only nation with four major professional football codes, that a lot more has not been written about this distinctive feature of our identity.

Anyway, Fujak's book is terrific, and is an excellent start to redressing that bizarre oversight. He strives to take an agnostic view of the four codes, and outlines their respective strengths and weaknesses very fairly and convincingly I think. (If you're into pissing contests, his verdict is that commercially speaking, AFL is far ahead of the pack, but still hasn't achieved nationwide dominance, the NRL is in a strong second but well behind, the A-League a distant third, and Rugby Union an even more distant fourth and in danger of slipping out of contention altogether.)

His assessment is that though the AFL is far from perfect, its dominance is down to a mix of Australian football's missionary zeal, and not putting too many feet wrong. Rugby league, soccer and union, on the other hand, have all shown an extraordinary ability to shoot themselves in the foot numerous times.

Anyway, just wondering if anyone else has read it and what they think of it? If nothing else, I think it provides a valuable resource as a snapshot at this point in time that will be a reference text for years to come.

 
Yeh, been meaning to get it. Maybe I'll put it on my Xmas stocking list for my family.

There appears to be a common view, often held the fans of rival codes, that the AFL's dominance is down to being better managed, making better decisions, planning ahead, etc. And there is a lot of truth in that, but I think it's a mistake to put it down entirely to that.

At the time that the old VFL started expanding, in 1987, there existed three very strong state competitions, and in combination, just those three alone had more supporters nationally than anything else. In other words, the AFL kick starts in 1990 already well, well ahead, and as the old saying goes: gold begets gold.

Back in 1987, soccer had already had a national league for 10 years. It made an early jump, but the truth is, the support for the top tier of soccer in this country was never big to begin with, and that's where it stayed, and in truth, still stays.
 
Yeh, been meaning to get it. Maybe I'll put it on my Xmas stocking list for my family.

There appears to be a common view, often held the fans of rival codes, that the AFL's dominance is down to being better managed, making better decisions, planning ahead, etc. And there is a lot of truth in that, but I think it's a mistake to put it down entirely to that.

At the time that the old VFL started expanding, in 1987, there existed three very strong state competitions, and in combination, just those three alone had more supporters nationally than anything else. In other words, the AFL kick starts in 1990 already well, well ahead, and as the old saying goes: gold begets gold.

Back in 1987, soccer had already had a national league for 10 years. It made an early jump, but the truth is, the support for the top tier of soccer in this country was never big to begin with, and that's where it stayed, and in truth, still stays.
Fujak address the matter of historical headstarts in great detail, even down to providing several "sliding doors" moments where the makeup of the current landscape sometimes hinged on the most trivial events at the time.

As to soccer, his assessment is unsursprisingly that soccer's greatest strength - its international presence - is also the single biggest headache that the A-League faces. And IIRC, although he states several times that things can change quite quickly in unimagined ways, he can't really see how that particular problem for Australian soccer is going to go away.
 
NRL is not mandating that players be vaxxed.
This is surprising- the NRL is exposing themselves to much disruption etc., & criticism, in their "relaxed " policy.
Will NSW & Qld. pokie palaces (machine areas enclosed, & no outdoor ventilation; & attracts a much older demographic) have a "No jab, no entry" policy? Inconsistent messaging?

Covid will, tragically & inevitably, become endemic throughout all Aust. - & most will not wish to contract covid.

On 15.10.21, Pennsylvania University's Ass. Prof. P. Ssentongo, & other medical experts, claimed in a detailed Study that c. 50% of persons contracting covid will have some form of "Long Covid" for at least 6 months, or longer. Long term implications?

And long term fears in the general populace?



Anyway, Fujak's book is terrific [Yes, generally. Easily the most detailed examination ever of the 4 codes in Aust.]
Fujak's book is very good.
I was, however, disappointed, since he had an academic approach, he did not include the crucial & fundamental "primary sources", re participation
ie he did not scrutinise & analyse the 4 codes' Official Regd. (not a survey!) GR nos.; & what aspects of each code's GR Official regd. nos. & formats they specifically included.

He preferred to use & cite the very misleading Ausplay GR nos. (where, in a survey of only 25k people, one is included as a "participant" even if one answers in the survey that they played the game only once in the last 12 months!).

Ausplay nos. particularly favour soccer (since soccer is a very safe & "easy" game to pay, cf the 3 other contact codes. One can easily play soccer as a "fill-in", & be safe, &, often, competitive; soccer, futsal, & school phys ed. etc.- soccer-themed programs are played c. 10.5 months pa. Other codes c. 5 months. comp.; & it is easy & common for soccer players to play various indoor & outdoor formats of soccer- & thus be much more likely to be included as a participant, cf the 3 contact codes).

The Official, regd. nos of the AFL & FA reveal that AF has more regd. Club player nos. (inc. Auskick club nos.) than soccer (inc. soccer club Miniroos- where kids are enrolled at 4 years old!) in Aust. The good Dr Fujak, embarassingly, failed to mention this important fact of AF primacy in Aust. He chose to perpetuate the "sleeping giant" myth- unforgiveable for an academic tome.

Soccer Officials, also, prefer to quote Ausplay nos., due to its loose "participation" criteria- since it benefits their "Manifest Destiny" narrative; & disadvantages AF. Dr Fujak obliged, & went with Ausplay & the FA.


I understand he is a soccer & RL fan, of Polish background, who was raised in Sydney . His book was published by Fairplay publishing- which, until his book, only published soccer books & magazines, & soccer websites/podcasts. They are unabashed soccer evangelists. He has claimed that, in Aust., soccer games have the "best atmosphere".
[/QUOTE]


Anyway, just wondering if anyone else has read it and what they think of it?
Fujak's was book was discussed in the Industry Threads "What are the chances of AFL overtaking RL in Qld. & NSW" (from post nos. #1117,1188, &1197 etc.); & Thread "A 3rd Team in Sydney, it's only a a matter of time" (from post nos.# 3644,3666, & 4032 etc.).

NoobPie, in particular, provided many illuminating references & graphs etc. from Fujak's book, & other information. Search under "Fujak" & "NoobPie" in BF Search function.



Hard to see any sporting club succeeding in Australia without an identity.
The Dolphins have angered, publicly, the local Moreton Bay Council, & many sponsors (both of whom provided financial support etc.) by their decision to only call the team "The Dolphins".


Even Federal Minister (& local MP) P. Dutton is rebuking the NRL, & Dolphins-only name.




I assume that since Redcliffe is located c. 40kms from the CBD & Suncorp, it wants to be a NRL team that attracts fans from the whole Greater Brisbane area, not just the "isolated" Moreton Bay peninsula- a big majority of its home games will be at Suncorp, very close to the CBD. I understand, for persons who live in Redcliffe, the trip would be c. 1 hour of travelling.

It is very rare for a club in a football code, based in Australia, not to have a geographic name - for reasons of tribalism etc.
 
Last edited:
I understand he is a soccer & RL fan, who was raised in Sydney . His book was published by Fairplay publishing- which, until his book, only published soccer books & magazines. He has claimed that, in Aust., soccer games have the best atmosphere.
I think his own passion is RL. I personally think he does a great job of staying impartial and giving credit where credit's due. Certainly doesn't hold back on criticism of the NRL.

I would agree that soccer games have the best atmosphere. In the stands. But I think what's happening out on the actual paddock is all that matters.

Fujak's was book was discussed in the Threads "What are the chances of AFL overtaking RL in Qld. & NSW" (from post nos. #1117,1188, &1197 etc.); & Thread "A 3rd Team in Sydney, it's only a a matter of time" (from post nos.# 3644,3666, & 4032).

NoobPie, in particular, provided many graphs etc. from Fujak's book, & other information.
Great, thanks for that, will check it out. Looking forward to some stimulating discussions.
 
NRL teams though are very commonly referred to by their nicknames, moreso than AFL clubs. For instance basically everyone refers to 'the roosters' rather than 'Sydney'.

Not the point. They're still a Sydney team, and everyone knows they're still a Sydney team. In the most part, their identity evolved as Eastern Suburbs.

I can only assume the Dolphins are trying to play their Redcliffe history as ell as saying "We represent all of you, not just Redcliffe". The problem with that is that no-one gives a stuff about their Redcliffe history at the moment as they draw about 2 men and a dog to their games. So they're probably not going to be overly successful attracting more Redcliffe people, and outside of that it's really just the "anyone but the Broncos" crowd that's going to get on board. What I don't know is how big that crowd is - maybe it's huge. Someone from Brisbane can probably shed more light on that.
 
Not the point. They're still a Sydney team, and everyone knows they're still a Sydney team. In the most part, their identity evolved as Eastern Suburbs.

I can only assume the Dolphins are trying to play their Redcliffe history as ell as saying "We represent all of you, not just Redcliffe". The problem with that is that no-one gives a stuff about their Redcliffe history at the moment as they draw about 2 men and a dog to their games. So they're probably not going to be overly successful attracting more Redcliffe people, and outside of that it's really just the "anyone but the Broncos" crowd that's going to get on board. What I don't know is how big that crowd is - maybe it's huge. Someone from Brisbane can probably shed more light on that.
The anti-Kevin Muscat club wasn't that successful. Not sure how any solely anti-club anywhere can be.

Perhaps Adelaide Crows but that would be a huge stretch to call them Anti Port Adelaide club

Hate teams with no location names. The Super Rugby was a big turnoff when it was the Cheetahs v Crusaders. Those names mean nothing to me and I have no idea why I should care.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

1.
The problem with that is that no-one gives a stuff about their Redcliffe history at the moment as they draw about 2 men and a dog to their games. So they're probably not going to be overly successful attracting more Redcliffe people
Do you have any recent information on Redcliffe's Qld. Cup pre 2020 (non-covid) home game crowd nos.; & for Finals?


2. I have added above (ie not in this post) to my post #685 on Fujak's book, further information & links.


This new link also relates to the issue of the new NRL team, The Dolphins, deciding not to have any geographic name.
From Wookie's sportsindustry twitter 23.10

"Good luck to the Dolphins, the newest franchise in the NRL. But what a pity they have started their life in the big time with such a crazy decision to lose their local identity of the Redcliffe Dolphins.

theage.com.au
Rich history, poor form: The shame about the name of NRL’s newest club
The Redcliffe Dolphins’ decision to callously throw away their history in the pursuit of national prominence is a tragic waste of a proud past.
 
Last edited:
1.
Do you have any recent information on Redcliffe's Qld. Cup pre 2020 (non-covid) home game crowd nos.; & for Finals?

Only grand finals - which were poorly attended. Other games don't have reported crowds, so I'm limited to highlights videos of games which pretty much always show no evidence of more than a few hundred in attendance.
 
Fujak address the matter of historical headstarts in great detail, even down to providing several "sliding doors" moments where the makeup of the current landscape sometimes hinged on the most trivial events at the time.

As to soccer, his assessment is unsursprisingly that soccer's greatest strength - its international presence - is also the single biggest headache that the A-League faces. And IIRC, although he states several times that things can change quite quickly in unimagined ways, he can't really see how that particular problem for Australian soccer is going to go away.

I generally thought Code Wars was excellent. It really is top shelf in the comparisons it makes and insights it draws where it is rooted in data. I don't know whether it is because (as BringBackTorps pointed out) the publisher is set up specifically for soccer and so there was pressure to thread through the soccer persecution myth or whether Hunter Fujak buys into it but the book includes several references validating this idea the AFL and its media have set out to suppress soccer.

I just had a quick flick and found this line

Of the competing codes, the AFL both as an organisation as well and its media advocates, are undoubtedly the strongest aggressors against soccer. This is true both in historical terms and contemporary times.

In support of this, Fujak mentions the world cup bid (and, based on the understanding he revealed elsewhere in his book, i just can't accept that Fujak honestly thinks the AFL wasn't fully in its rights and obligations to stand its ground and expect adequate compensation) and later on a grahame cornes quote and a quote from harmesy 37 from Bigfooty.

A few pages later there are references to soccer pitches getting damaged in Adelaide in the 50s and a quote from the Melbourne Argus from 1951 of a "people who come to this country should play aussie rules" nature.

These anecdotes are followed up with this doozy

Such examples certainly speak to why Australian rules football would become compared to a religious cult

Cringeworthy sub-intellectual stuff in an otherwise excellent book
 
This thread got too sucky. Let's get it back to something a bit more on topic. I read 2 things this week that I found really interesting.

The first is the IPL franchise auction. 2 new franchises, necessarily based in the cities of Lucknow and Ahmedabad, went for a shade over $2 billion combined. My immediate reaction was what the hell given the IPL goes for about 7 weeks. But after I thought about it, I reckon this could be really bad news for international cricket everywhere. The IPL can only expand - money will demand it. People aren't paying a billion dollars to run a team for 7 weeks. Surely the expectation in the medium to long term is for the IPL to become like pretty much every other sporting league in the world, and if that happens, then how are we going to get anyone playing tests, or even any international match when the IPL is going on? They're going to be paid millions to play, far in excess of anything a local board of cricket can offer. If it goes for 6 months, that's half the year when the majority of the world's best cricketers will be out of action (for international purposes).

The other thing - which is along similar lines although a fraction of the size - was the reports of the A-League selling a 30% stake to a US private equity firm. It's one thing to be selling franchises (of which you could theoretically do an unlimited number of times), an entirely different situation to be selling the league itself. Mainly because you can only do that once. Once it's gone, it's gone forever. Which brings me to the question of what they are planning to get out of it? Investors get involved in sport for 3 main reasons:
- Ego (i.e they want to own a sports team because it's cool)
- Sportswashing (i.e to gain credibility for their dubious regime/business)
- To simply make money.

A US private equity firm would not fall under the first 2, so they clearly expect to be pulling more out of the league than they're paying for it. Where's the money coming from? Do they get a 30% share of TV rights income or some other profit based amount of cash? In any case, this is money that would otherwise be going back to the clubs, but is now going to the US?

The whole thing just doesn't make sense to me unless the league itself (or possibly the team owners given I believe it's the same thing) just want to partly cash out. Where is the $130m going? Split 12 ways it's not insignificant, but presumably it's going to cost all of them a lot more over the next 10 or 20 years, unless the league completely tanks and the owners are screwed then anyway.
 
This thread got too sucky. Let's get it back to something a bit more on topic. I read 2 things this week that I found really interesting.

The first is the IPL franchise auction. 2 new franchises, necessarily based in the cities of Lucknow and Ahmedabad, went for a shade over $2 billion combined. My immediate reaction was what the hell given the IPL goes for about 7 weeks. But after I thought about it, I reckon this could be really bad news for international cricket everywhere. The IPL can only expand - money will demand it. People aren't paying a billion dollars to run a team for 7 weeks. Surely the expectation in the medium to long term is for the IPL to become like pretty much every other sporting league in the world, and if that happens, then how are we going to get anyone playing tests, or even any international match when the IPL is going on? They're going to be paid millions to play, far in excess of anything a local board of cricket can offer. If it goes for 6 months, that's half the year when the majority of the world's best cricketers will be out of action (for international purposes).

Don't think it will go for anywhere near 6 months but there certainly could be pressure to extend the season.


The other thing - which is along similar lines although a fraction of the size - was the reports of the A-League selling a 30% stake to a US private equity firm. It's one thing to be selling franchises (of which you could theoretically do an unlimited number of times), an entirely different situation to be selling the league itself. Mainly because you can only do that once. Once it's gone, it's gone forever. Which brings me to the question of what they are planning to get out of it? Investors get involved in sport for 3 main reasons:
- Ego (i.e they want to own a sports team because it's cool)
- Sportswashing (i.e to gain credibility for their dubious regime/business)
- To simply make money.

A US private equity firm would not fall under the first 2, so they clearly expect to be pulling more out of the league than they're paying for it. Where's the money coming from? Do they get a 30% share of TV rights income or some other profit based amount of cash? In any case, this is money that would otherwise be going back to the clubs, but is now going to the US?

The whole thing just doesn't make sense to me unless the league itself (or possibly the team owners given I believe it's the same thing) just want to partly cash out. Where is the $130m going? Split 12 ways it's not insignificant, but presumably it's going to cost all of them a lot more over the next 10 or 20 years, unless the league completely tanks and the owners are screwed then anyway.

It certainly seems like part of it is to cover some of the costs of the covid period.

I'm guessing they also think they need to spend quite a bit upfront in make this reset work.

With the APL franchise owners, the downside of their exposure is really limited to walking-away. They wouldn't be obligated to stick around and continue to cover the costs of a tanking professional league. So there is a bit of moral hazard here with no doubt ultimately the taxpayer carrying the can (remembering the AUstralian taxpayer spent 10s of millions seed funding this franchise league in the first place)

What Australian soccer seems to have on its side is the "sleeping giant" myth always seems to con enough groups with buckets of money that there is some huge upside on offer if only they get things right
 
This US equity firm actually owns a stake in City Group (whether that's the reason why they've come in, I don't know) - so not only do they now own about a third of the whole comp, indirectly they are a part owner of one of the clubs.
They have tens of billions of dollars in investments swishing around, so this $130 mill looks like petty cash in comparison.
Maybe the attraction is simply being able to take control of a whole league, probably not that many opportunities to do something like that, the price might have looked cheap.
It's such a small amount for them, it probably sat below the threshold of when they bother doing their due diligence!
 
Private equity is on the move in cricket:
'The BCCI, with its ever-expanding T20 money-spinner, is now effectively in competition with the global body, of which it is the largest member, for talent, dates, television and sponsorship monies.

The tighter squeeze, however, will be suffered by bilateral cricket, and especially Test cricket, which apart from a couple of marquee series effectively runs at a loss.

Now comes venture capitalists such as CVC who embody the transfiguration of sport into business. Their new franchise will be in the heart of the capitalist playground of Gujarat. They have invested heavily in international rugby union and association football, including, controversially, La Liga.

CVC’s sports investments, moreover, coexist cosily with extensive gaming and betting activities [dash] which makes it a … errr ….colourful new addition to a league that has had its probity problems in a country where gambling is effectively illegal.

CVC also have an outpost in Sydney, and will be among those scouting Australian sporting assets. Rival Silver Lake is already making its presence felt, being reportedly on the brink of investment in the A-League.'



At the same time here in Australia we have the sale of what was V8 Supercars with the private equity owner (Archer Capital) booking a loss on its investment.
 
Last edited:
abc 7.30 Report 23.9.21

Although this relates to 2020 (& is based on the Annual Reports of the various pro codes, some of which were only released in early 2021), it provides a very good snapshot of the deleterious financial effects of covid on the various pro codes. There is also info. on the covid effects on GR participation.

Pro RU suffered the biggest, on a pro rata basis, financial losses in 2020.

Whist it shows that the NRL lost 25% of its total revenues, cf to 15% for the AFL, it is my understanding the NRL Annual Report for 2020 (cut-off date 31.10.21) did not include the 2020 SOO Series (all 3 matches played in November). The very lucrative financial returns of the 2020 SOO Series will appear in the 2021 NRL Annual Report.



This article also examines how covid effected GR participation in kids' "organised out of school physical activity" in 2020, cf 2019.
These misleading AusPlay figures claim that there were only c. 4% less participants (72% cf 76%) in kids' "organised out of school physical activity" in 2020, cf 2019!

"Participation in organised out of school physical activity has dropped 5 per cent [actually 4% from their graph- my words] in the last year, with the impact of COVID-19 clear.

Competitions all across Australia have been postponed, paused, compressed and cancelled at times since the pandemic started.

This is also shown in the biggest drops in participation, namely the football codes, basketball and swimming".

AusPlay states that adults increased their physical activity in 2020, by c. 1%- 4%


"COVID has increased individual fitness activity
Percent of adult population participating in the top 5 sport/fitness activities, 2019 and 2020.


2019-top figure
2020- bottom figure

Walking (Recreational)
43.3%
47.0%
Fitness/Gym
36.7%
37.4%
Running/Athletics
16.4%
19.8%
Swimming
15.6%
17.1%
Cycling
11.5%
14.3% ".
Chart: ABC Source: AusPlay Get the data Download image


This Ausplay claim for kids is very misleading, since kids' GR organised sport was very heavily & negatively impacted by covid in 2020 cf 2019, especially in Vic.- less so in Greater Sydney. The other areas of Australia had a much smaller impact on GR organised sport due to covid in 2020. Kids, therefore, were often playing significantly less organised sport in 2020.

The claim for adults is also misleading, as a brief, occasional walk or run etc. cannot be compared to the more strenuous weekly club training, & playing in comp. matches.
Furthermore, in 2020 covid times & lockdowns, it would have been very reasonably assumed there would have been massive increases in adults' walking & running in the lockdown "permitted exercise times"- but AusPlay only records these increased by c. 3% in 2020! Totally absurd!

Because AusPlay is only a survey of 25k people in Australia, & because it counts a person as a "participant" in organised sport or activity, even if that person says they played a particular sport or activity only once in the last 12 months, their survey nos. are very misleading.
 
Last edited:
abc 7.30 Report 23.9.21

Although this relates to 2020 (& is based on the Annual Reports of the various pro codes, some of which were only released in early 2021), it provides a very good snapshot of the deleterious financial effects of covid on the various pro codes. There is also info. on the covid effects on GR participation.

Pro RU suffered the biggest, on a pro rata basis, financial losses in 2020.

Whist it shows that the NRL lost 25% of its total revenues, cf to 15% for the AFL, it is my understanding the NRL Annual Report for 2020 (cut-off date 31.10.21) did not include the 2020 SOO Series (all 3 matches played in November). The very lucrative financial returns of the 2020 SOO Series will appear in the 2021 NRL Annual Report.



This article also examines how covid effected GR participation in kids' "organised out of school physical activity" in 2020, cf 2019.
These misleading AusPlay figures claim that there were only c. 4% less participants (72% cf 76%) in kids' "organised out of school physical activity" in 2020, cf 2019!

"Participation in organised out of school physical activity has dropped 5 per cent [actually 4% from their graph- my words] in the last year, with the impact of COVID-19 clear.

Competitions all across Australia have been postponed, paused, compressed and cancelled at times since the pandemic started.

This is also shown in the biggest drops in participation, namely the football codes, basketball and swimming".

AusPlay states that adults increased their physical activity in 2020, by c. 1%- 4%


"COVID has increased individual fitness activity
Percent of adult population participating in the top 5 sport/fitness activities, 2019 and 2020.
(Top figure is 2019, bottom figure 2020)

2019-top figure
2020- bottom figure

Walking (Recreational)
43.3%
47.0%
Fitness/Gym
36.7%
37.4%
Running/Athletics
16.4%
19.8%
Swimming
15.6%
17.1%
Cycling
11.5%
14.3% ".
Chart: ABC Source: AusPlay Get the data Download image


This Ausplay claim for kids is very misleading, since kids' GR organised sport was very heavily & negatively impacted by covid in 2020 cf 2019, especially in Vic.- less so in Greater Sydney. The other areas of Australia had a much smaller impact on GR organised sport due to covid in 2020. Kids, therefore, were often playing significantly less organised sport in 2020.

The claim for adults is also misleading, as a brief, occasional walk or run etc. cannot be compared to the more strenuous weekly club training, & playing in comp. matches.

Because AusPlay is only a survey of 25k people in Australia, & because it counts a person as a "participant" in organised sport even if that person says they played a particular sport only once in the last 12 months, their survey nos. are very misleading.

A lot of people dont trust official sport released data unfortunately - and some sports dont release proper participation data at all, so they'll turn to the independent sources instead. The guys who wrote this are ex ABS employees who probably prefer it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Remove this Banner Ad

Back
Top