Bumped Random Chat - I want BBQ

[Proper Gander]

K. Let’s talk about Striker while he’s not here.

 

[Toump Ass]

I fully recognise the issue around Australia Day, but I also believe that no day is going to be appropriate. Any day celebrating post-colonial Australia will be protested by the Aboriginal population for similar reasons.

Fair point. But if we are going to have a day for "post-colonial Australia" why not choose a day that's not the most offensive event possible to the indigenous population?
Surely the day the Australia Act (1986) was passed or the day Bunnings was founded would be a tad more sensitive. I'd like to see the meaning and significance of Australia Day changed to be something more inclusive, but that's not possible on 26th of Jan.

Edit: And Merry Christmas to you too Striker!

 

[Cannon82]

Fair point. But if we are going to have a day for "post-colonial Australia" why not choose a day that's not the most offensive event possible to the indigenous population?
Surely the day the Australia Act (1986) was passed or the day Bunnings was founded would be a tad more sensitive. I'd like to see the meaning and significance of Australia Day changed to be something more inclusive, but that's not possible on 26th of Jan.

And why not leave it as it is? You can't control people's sensitivity, the date itself is insignificant and it doesn't change the past. Say the holiday gets changed to another date; there'll be another ten things waiting to get offended about.

 

[Toump Ass]

And why not leave it as it is? You can't control people's sensitivity, the date itself is insignificant and it doesn't change the past.

We can't change the past, but do we need a national day of celebration on the date many consider a day of mourning?

FWIW I disagree the date is insignificant. Australia Day is ostensibly about celebrating inclusiveness and diversity, but that feels impossible on the anniversary of colonisation.

Having said that, if you do feel the date insignificant, you won't be offended if we move it, right?

Say the holiday gets changed to another date; there'll be another ten things waiting to get offended about.

Yeah I'd say as far as indigenous issues goes, there's a fair bit of work of still.

This seems like a fairly significant step though.

 

[LeverPuller]

K. Let’s talk about Striker while he’s not here.

Just because I'm not here doesn't mean I won't see it

 

[Cannon82]

We can't change the past, but do we need a national day celebration on the date many consider a day of mourning?

FWIW I disagree the date is insignificant. Australia Day is ostensibly about celebrating inclusiveness and diversity, but that feels impossible on the anniversary of colonisation.

Having said that, if you do feel the date insignificant, you won't be offended if we move it, right?

I'm not going to play the "who cares more" game because that'll end up being death by a thousand cuts, which is where I see this saga going. None of the people who caused or were affected during colonization are around anymore, and this idea that people alive today have a grievance over it that requires some symbolic gesture to alleviate seems more like demanding change for change's sake. Tending much more towards grumpiness these days, if I was deciding whether to move the date, I would want a better reason than 200 year old ancestral bone tingling.

Since when has Australia Day been about celebrating inclusiveness and diversity? The "nuance" on both those terms is very, very recent.

Yeah I'd say as far as indigenous issues goes, there's a fair bit of work of still.

This seems like a fairly significant step though.

Good luck to anyone who thinks they have some idea on how to fix or properly deal with indigenous issues. The government pissing money up the wall isn't working, and if people think we need to return the land back to the native inhabitants then that should be on a volunteer basis (ie bequeath their house to the Wiradjuri tribe etc). If what I've seen done to houses, cars, etc that were gifted to some aboriginal people is any indication, that'll end poorly.

 

[Toump Ass]

As Striker said- people with have grievances with any day we celebrate post-colonial Australia. So why don't we try and find a way to celebrate the 40,000+ years of Aboriginal history as well as the 200-odd years since the Europeans arrived?

None of the people who caused or were affected during colonization are around anymore

Wrong.

Tending much more towards grumpiness these days, if I was deciding whether to move the date, I would want a better reason than 200 year old ancestral bone tingling.

..."Ancestral bone tingling"? Really?

The reasons are well documented, if you'd prefer to stay ignorant that's up to you.

Since when has Australia Day been about celebrating inclusiveness and diversity? The "nuance" on both those terms is very, very recent.

Pinched those words from the National Australia Day Council website; they're the government organisation whose job it is to promote Australia Day

Australia Day itself was only formally recognised as a national event in 1994 (?). Very, very recent

Good luck to anyone who thinks they have some idea on how to fix or properly deal with indigenous issues. The government pissing money up the wall isn't working, and if people think we need to return the land back to the native inhabitants then that should be on a volunteer basis (ie bequeath their house to the Wiradjuri tribe etc). If what I've seen done to houses, cars, etc that were gifted to some aboriginal people is any indication, that'll end poorly.

 

[Cannon82]

As Striker said- people with have grievances with any day we celebrate post-colonial Australia. So why don't we try and find a way to celebrate the 40,000+ years of Aboriginal history as well as the 200-odd years since the Europeans arrived?

You've lost me there. You're agreeing that people will have grievances with any Australia Day date, but we need to find a way to celebrate aboriginal history and European colonial history. That's not shifting the date, it's more angling towards removing it in its existing form altogether.

Wrong.

Who are these miraculously long-lived folk that have managed to fly under the radar for hundreds of years?

..."Ancestral bone tingling"? Really?

The reasons are well documented, if you'd prefer to stay ignorant that's up to you.

Yes, really. Being a descendant of someone who suffered some wrong in the past doesn't somehow transmit their pain. You want to open up the can of worms that is being responsible for your ancestors actions or being owed for their plight? Where does that end? Any murderers in your family tree?

Cheers for calling me ignorant. Just because there are reasons doesn't mean its not perfectly acceptable to say "no". Bless your cultural sensitivity though.

Pinched those words from the National Australia Day Council website; they're the government organisation whose job it is to promote Australia Day

Australia Day itself was only formally recognised as a national event in 1994 (?). Very, very recent

25 odd years ago is "very, very recent"? Well, if the government website says that's the way it is, it must be true. I'm sure it must also be retroactively true when looking at past events. To my mind, the push for diversity and inclusiveness has been in the last handful of years; the nuance I'm talking about is diversity for diversity's sake, ie quotas in the workplace, Parliament etc. That hasn't been happening for 25 years, or at least certainly not to the degree it is currently.

 

[Russian Demon]

Im not a fan of the attitude that indigenous issues cant be fixed. Ill kick in a 1% bump to all taxable income to be given in the form of aid, land, basic income (or indeed whstever is asked for) to indigenous communities in exchange for a statute of limitations on national guilt. Say 100 more years? 200? Whats fair?

Im all for helping. But its not what we seem to be doing as a nation. So either start looking for real solutions that dont use peoples feelings as the primary goal, or own the fact we ****ed them as collective and move on. But this halfway guilt assuaging track is just pointless.
EDIT: but to be on topic, change the day, if it will help. Chuck in ANZAC day too, to a day we defended our borders rather than violated someone elses.

 

[ABray10]

Indigenous issues are tough to tackle for any nation, how do you right the wrongs your ancestors committed hundreds of years earlier?

The only places that I have seen that seem to have been successful are in Europe, where said transgressions have generally taken place much longer ago, and generally all parties are looking forward at how to work together in the future rather than looking towards the past. Don't see this ever happening in Australia because we are so fixated on what happened hundreds of years ago.

 

[ABray10]

Chuck in ANZAC day too, to a day we defended our borders rather than violated someone elses.

Not sure I agree with this, we may have been an attacking force at Gallipoli, but we weren't starting a war, we were already at war with the Ottoman empire and its allies. Wouldn't consider it a border violation.

 

[Crimson Azure]

Man the world is so black and white today, where is the gray? It seems like:

Differing opinion = Ignorant
Disagree with any minority viewpoint = Intolorent
Honest about you beliefs/views = Bigot

It is almost impossible to have an open discussion with anyone who's opinion differs to yours without being branded as one of the above.

Inb4 I'm called all of the above.

 

[schmuttt]

Merry Christmas to all the board. It has been a frustrating season on field, but despite my need to debate everything that doesn’t fit my MFC view I reckon we’ve held up pretty well on here

Hope everyone has a safe and happy couple weeks

 

[Toump Ass]

You've lost me there. You're agreeing that people will have grievances with any Australia Day date, but we need to find a way to celebrate aboriginal history and European colonial history. That's not shifting the date, it's more angling towards removing it in its existing form altogether.

Exactly as I said in my first post: "I'd like to see the meaning and significance of Australia Day changed to be something more inclusive, but that's not possible on 26th of Jan".

But now that you mention it I'm ok with removing it all together too

Cheers for calling me ignorant. Just because there are reasons doesn't mean its not perfectly acceptable to say "no". Bless your cultural sensitivity though.

You said you wanted a better reason than "200 year old ancestral bone tingling". I'm sure you're aware of the arguments for changing the date, and yes it's perfectly acceptable to say "no", but I think those arguments amount to more than whatever "200 year old ancestral bone tingling" is supposed to mean (I'm still not sure about that one by the way).

I don't think you're ignorant and I'm sorry I choose those words- sorry mate. Not my intention there.

Well, if the government website says that's the way it is, it must be true.

It's the National Australia Day Council; from what I can gather it's their function to coordinate Australia Day so I'd assume they get some say in what it's about.

change the day, if it will help.

******* hell, perfect summary. If it's going to make a few people feel less s**t, why not.

 

[stretcharmstrong]

Man the world is so black and white today, where is the gray? It seems like:

Differing opinion = Ignorant
Disagree with any minority viewpoint = Intolorent
Honest about you’re bigoted beliefs/views = Bigot

It is almost impossible to have an open discussion with anyone who's opinion differs to yours without being branded as one of the above.

Inb4 I'm called all of the above.

 

[Cannon82]

'

Edit required.

 

[Cannon82]

Exactly as I said in my first post: "I'd like to see the meaning and significance of Australia Day changed to be something more inclusive, but that's not possible on 26th of Jan".

But now that you mention it I'm ok with removing it all together too

And the people who are quite happy leaving Australia Day how and where it is? You say you want to move it to make "a few people feel less s**t", but do you care that you may be upsetting more people by moving it and/or changing it to some Festivus lite version? Because I'd imagine - and not talking about you here - that the argument from the pro move / change Australia Day side is that those people are racists / bigots / culturally insensitive and therefore their opinions don't matter and it doesn't matter if they're upset. Its a kind of moral bullying that seems fairly prevalent nowadays and reminds me of the booing Goodes fiasco and all the bullshit arguments / guilt by association judgment that came with it ("if you boo Goodes, you're either a racist or providing cover for racists!" etc).

You said you wanted a better reason than "200 year old ancestral bone tingling". I'm sure you're aware of the arguments for changing the date, and yes it's perfectly acceptable to say "no", but I think those arguments amount to more than whatever "200 year old ancestral bone tingling" is supposed to mean (I'm still not sure about that one by the way).

If having a public holiday on the date the first fleet landed is offensive, I'd like to know how this actually affects anyone living today because I can't see how it does. I'm not talking about the impact, which is what resulted in a lot of Europeans ending up here, so how does changing the date of a public holiday resolve any issues with the invasion of Australia?

It's the National Australia Day Council; from what I can gather it's their function to coordinate Australia Day so I'd assume they get some say in what it's about.

That's fine, but I have zero interest in the government's attempts at social tinkering. I don't care what it says on the website and I don't imagine there'll be many who look to a government website for guidance on celebrating public holidays.

******* hell, perfect summary. If it's going to make a few people feel less s**t, why not.

I don't see how it does help. It's lipstick on a pig.

 

[Toump Ass]

And the people who are quite happy leaving Australia Day how and where it is? You say you want to move it to make "a few people feel less s**t", but do you care that you may be upsetting more people by moving it and/or changing it to some Festivus lite version?

A survey from February this year found less than 50% of people polled even knew what event Australia Day was commemorating. Clearly the date isn't significant to most, so I can't see why these people would be upset if it was changed.

And I don't believe being more inclusive of the indigenous population is making it a "festivus lite" version.

Because I'd imagine - and not talking about you here - that the argument from the pro move / change Australia Day side is that those people are racists / bigots / culturally insensitive and therefore their opinions don't matter and it doesn't matter if they're upset. Its a kind of moral bullying that seems fairly prevalent nowadays and reminds me of the booing Goodes fiasco and all the bullshit arguments / guilt by association judgment that came with it ("if you boo Goodes, you're either a racist or providing cover for racists!" etc).

Who cares.

One person gets called a racist/bigot/moron, the other a sjw/leftard/bully.

The arguments for changing the date are strong, no need for identity politics or "moral bullying" as you put it.

If having a public holiday on the date the first fleet landed is offensive, I'd like to know how this actually affects anyone living today because I can't see how it does. I'm not talking about the impact, which is what resulted in a lot of Europeans ending up here, so how does changing the date of a public holiday resolve any issues with the invasion of Australia?

Why does changing the date have to resolve issues with the invasion of Australia?

It would be seen as an important gesture to many. I'd see it as a huge step forward.

That's fine, but I have zero interest in the government's attempts at social tinkering. I don't care what it says on the website and I don't imagine there'll be many who look to a government website for guidance on celebrating public holidays.

So you don't care what the government say Australia Day is about. And you don't think there'll be anyone who does care what the government says they should be celebrating, but you don't want the government to actually change what Australia Day is about because... ?

From what I can tell, your best argument is "say the holiday gets changed to another date; there'll be another ten things waiting to get offended about".

I wasn't impressed when Jacqui Lambie said it either.

I don't see how it does help. It's lipstick on a pig.

Yeah I don't see indigenous issues as being a "pig" but anyway.

Enough politicing/SJW-ing for me now.

Have a safe Christmas everyone!

 

[Cannon82]

A survey from February this year found less than 50% of people polled even knew what event Australia Day was commemorating. Clearly the date isn't significant to most, so I can't see why these people would be upset if it was changed.

And the Indigenous / Torres Strait Islander population of Australia is what, 2 or 3%? If even a meager percentage of the balance don't want to move it, then you'd be upsetting more people by moving it than you'd appease. If this isn't a popularity issue, then it's more and you clearly think the justification lies with one side.

And I don't believe being more inclusive of the indigenous population is making it a "festivus lite" version.

Finding a non-offensive, inclusive of everyone substitute for Australia Day would be exactly a "lite" Festivus for-the-rest-of-us version. Do you think the date itself for Australia Day is the issue, or the fact that there are 23 or 24 million foreign invaders on their homeland?

Who cares.

One person gets called a racist/bigot/moron, the other a sjw/leftard/bully.

The arguments for changing the date are strong, no need for identity politics or "moral bullying" as you put it.

I don't see how those arguments are so "strong" unless you already have a slanted view of the subject. As I said above, ~3% indigenous population plus all those who enjoy getting offended on their behalf. If more people want to maintain the status quo, then what of it? Identity politics and this type of s**t go hand-in-hand; it's how people justify why "my reasons" trump "your reasons"... which seems to be the basis and sole argument here.

Why does changing the date have to resolve issues with the invasion of Australia?

It would be seen as an important gesture to many. I'd see it as a huge step forward.

How can you hold the position that its important to move the date of Australia Day from the date of the first fleet's landing and say it has nothing to do with the invasion of Australia? Why are we discussing this if its simultaneously not an issue and important to many?

So you don't care what the government say Australia Day is about. And you don't think there'll be anyone who does care what the government says they should be celebrating, but you don't want the government to actually change what Australia Day is about because... ?

From what I can tell, your best argument is "say the holiday gets changed to another date; there'll be another ten things waiting to get offended about".

I wasn't impressed when Jacqui Lambie said it either.

I do not care what the government says, or the next government, or the next one. They'll flip flop wherever they feel the safe option with the voters lies. You care if you want, just don't be surprised if they do an about face every 3 or 4 years.

You want the status quo to be changed; fine. Come up with a decent argument with either numbers and figures to back it up or reasoning that puts the matter to bed. Haven't seen it yet.

Yeah I don't see indigenous issues as being a "pig" but anyway.

Enough politicing/SJW-ing for me now.

Have a safe Christmas everyone!

Given indigenous issues are and have been a conundrum for the country for a long time, why mince words about calling it a metaphorical ugly pig. You're sitting here exchanging BF posts with me so you clearly don't think its trivial. Changing the date for Australia Day does precisely nothing towards fixing any of those issues. It's a gesture with just about zero meaning other than changing for the sake of change. From my point of view, we should be doing things for a reason, and nothing I've seen so far justifies changing things up for the sake of it.

Anyway, a merry Christmas to you too, you miserable campaigner!

 

[Toump Ass]

And the Indigenous / Torres Strait Islander population of Australia is what, 2 or 3%? If even a meager percentage of the balance don't want to move it, then you'd be upsetting more people by moving it than you'd appease. If this isn't a popularity issue, then it's more and you clearly think the justification lies with one side.

I don't believe more people would be upset by moving it (for the
majority Australia Day is about nothing more sausages and beer), but I do believe their is adequate justification for moving it.

If more people want to maintain the status quo, then what of it?

Most people don't know what Australia Day commemorates, so I fail to see how they'd understand the issues around the day.

But, you make a good point: thankfully awareness around this issue is growing, and with that I'm sure the status quo will change.

Come up with a decent argument with either numbers and figured to back it up or reasoning that puts the matter to bed. Haven't seen it yet.

There's already enough holidays in January and I'd like another one in the later part of the year instead..?

Seriously though: January 26th is an incredibly disrespectful day to our indigenous population, and therefore not inclusive of all Australians (which it should be). It's an important step towards reconciliation. There's 360-odd better days in the year (and more significant historical events) to choose from. The public debate/noise/protests overshadows Australia Day.

I think these are all adequate justification to move Australia Day. If you don't think those statements are true, or you don't think they're decent arguments, fair enough.

Changing the date for Australia Day does precisely nothing towards fixing any of those issues. It's a gesture with just about zero meaning other than changing for the sake of change.

Nope. Agree to disagree on this one!

Anyway, a merry Christmas to you too, you miserable campaigner!

Miserable- yes. Not looking forward to a day with the family at all

Hope yours will be a little more tolerable than mine!

 

[PerfectFooty]

Merry Christmas to my Bigfooty family for tomorrow

 

[Bazza97]

Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[Proper Gander]

WAKE UP BOARD.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

 

[Cannon82]

I don't believe more people would be upset by moving it (for the
majority Australia Day is about nothing more sausages and beer), but I do believe their is adequate justification for moving it.

It would only require a small percentage of the majority of the population to care and you would have more people upset, whether you believe it or not. 1 in 25 from the balance would do it even if 100% of the indigenous population cared, which I doubt they do (I'm not including those who choose to get offended on behalf of others). You say Australia Day doesn't mean anything to the majority of Australians - I would think that statement would hold equally true for your side of the equation.

Do you think there are people around today who can trace their family history back to the first fleet? Its a significant event for the aboriginal people because Europeans arrived, and its a significant event to European Australians because Europeans arrived. If the date isn't important, why are you looking to change the date? If it's more than just the date, then you don't think Australians should be celebrating the day the colony was founded. Seems more like a step towards whitewashing to me.

Its disingenuous to keep using the word "move" when you really mean "change". If you want to change Australia Day, what would you like it changed to? I'm sure there are plenty of inoffensive, inclusive options on the table, but would the majority of people vote to swap Australia Day for National Pavlova Day? I would hope not.

There are two holidays in January... not sure how that is "too many". Guess there are too many around Christmas and Easter as well? If you're not happy about the number of holidays in the second half of the year, you silly buggers give up the October long weekend to watch a horse race. Holidays are clearly wasted on Victorians...

 

[Proper Gander]

It would only require a small percentage of the majority of the population to care and you would have more people upset, whether you believe it or not. 1 in 25 from the balance would do it even if 100% of the indigenous population cared, which I doubt they do (I'm not including those who choose to get offended on behalf of others). You say Australia Day doesn't mean anything to the majority of Australians - I would think that statement would hold equally true for your side of the equation.

Do you think there are people around today who can trace their family history back to the first fleet? Its a significant event for the aboriginal people because Europeans arrived, and its a significant event to European Australians because Europeans arrived. If the date isn't important, why are you looking to change the date? If it's more than just the date, then you don't think Australians should be celebrating the day the colony was founded. Seems more like a step towards whitewashing to me.

Its disingenuous to keep using the word "move" when you really mean "change". If you want to change Australia Day, what would you like it changed to? I'm sure there are plenty of inoffensive, inclusive options on the table, but would the majority of people vote to swap Australia Day for National Pavlova Day? I would hope not.

There are two holidays in January... not sure how that is "too many". Guess there are too many around Christmas and Easter as well? If you're not happy about the number of holidays in the second half of the year, you silly buggers give up the October long weekend to watch a horse race. Holidays are clearly wasted on Victorians...

I’m randomly weighing in here because my mother wants to watch The Crown and I’m not that into it.

I would have said I was on the same side as Toump Ass on this, but I must say you have somehow crystallised the better arguments for the status quo and I’m close to swayed by them. I don’t know exactly what Australia Day is, but it’s difficult to escape colonisation as fairly fundamental to it. The notion of diversity and inclusion wouldn’t need promoting without the original event to have brought about ‘modern day’ Australia, and shifting the date of the holiday does nothing to change the reality. I also suspect that campaigning to change or remove colonial symbols is something of a middle-class intellectual luxury (I’ve generally been inclined to tag along with all similar campaigns) but when I think about it I suspect it may not be in the forefront of pressing need for the part of the population that the campaign for change is supposedly for.