Preview Changes for the Giants game

[Pilchard_Adams]

Now you are being silly.

My point has always been that you need to play a balance of experienced players to assist in the development of new kids. Others argued last year that we shouldn't play guys like Doughty even though we averaged less than 5 players over 25 per game last year. (want the stats?) The so called Primus/Spackler Theory said we should have stopped playing Reilly and Doughty last year to bring in more kids.

This season we have played 8 of our 9 players over 25 (only Symes has missed out) and Johncock is injured this week. I think we have the balance wrong and we could afford to play Doughty or Reilly and Porplyzia (I love Porps but I just don't believe he will be running around in Crows colours in two years time) or Callinan. This would free up two spots for Shaw/ Kerridge /Lyons /Lynch etc.

Why are you not including Knights and Tambling?

Dogga and Raddar wont be playing as soon as they arent playing to the required level. Last year Reilly was crap, this year he has shown a bit more

5 players aged over 25 per game last season as an average? Wow. Would have been different had Callinan, stevens and Porps not missed basically the entire season. That leaved us with Dogga, Reilly, Rutten, Thompson, Johncock, Symes, and Vince to select. Symes wasnt picked and a few games were missed by the rest giving the 5 average. So we had around 6 available per game and played 5 average, but had 9 in total on our list.

This year we have 2/3 injured players back in Callinan and Porps, plus VB, Douglas, Knights, Tambling and douglas moving into the +25 bracket. This year we 13 on our list, Average of 12 to select from each week, but are only playing an average of 9 per week. So we are playing a lower % of the players aged +25 each week compared to last season and you are still not happy...

 

[A FEW GOOD MEN]

Wrong.

The comparison was players over 25 (that would be 26,27, 28 29, 30, 31, 32,33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38 plus what ever age Dogga retires) As outlined earlier the measure was players age at the start of the season as published by champion data. I am happy to use other measures if you think that helps your argument but it doesn't

We have nine players over 25 this year. Doughty 31, Callinan, Thompson and Johncock 29, Rutten, Reilly 28, Porplyzia and Symes 27 and Vince 26. Mentioning Knights (25) who has not been fully fit and Tambling (25) is indicating that you do not follow the argument.

If you accept that we won't be challenging for the flag then the issue is how to best develop our squad whilst still winning as many games as possible. How many less games would we have won by playing Shaw instead of Doughty or Reilly and Kerridge or Lyons instead of Callinan? I have no problem with rotating Doughty,Reilly, Callinan and Porplyzia (i.e. playing 2 or 3 of these each week) but I do object to them all playing 22 games this year at the expenses of Kerridge, Shaw, Lyons and possibly Brown.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Form needs to be the premises for selection otherwise you risk dissolving standards

I am not one that believes in gifting opportunities and with this in my mind I want to see a young player EARN his jumper and by doing so he will push out a existing player who is not consistently performing

The call to gift games to rookie players to build towards 2014 is not the right approach, however challenging young players to perform in the sanfl and to win a spot in the team at the expense of a more experience player is the only way to go

What we have one player 30+, it's not like 3-4 years ago when we were playing 6 players 30+, there needs to be a balanced approach to building to our next flag challenge

Great post

It's not about all youth (see Melbourne disaster), it's about getting a blend of youth and experience ...but above all selecting on merit.

Do we want another GC suns or GWS ......that's what happens when you get elite talent but not enough experience around them ......it's also argued and i agree that continually losing stunts player development

Problem supporters by nature are always looking for the next Gary Ablett ......it's this thinking that has prevented more mature age players being ecruited from state leagues ......you can hear the wrath of supporters for recruiting work horses.

Lets not forget no club holds back potential 200+ game players ......they tend to stickout very early in careers

 

[Elite Crow]

The club is in a quandary. After the shit last two seasons, we need wins to get the new coach off to a good start and get the crowds back. Hence we have played our strongest team on paper, not necessarily form. I understand where AFGM is coming from but our priorities at the moment are to win, not set up the team for 2014.

On form Shaw should have been in for Otten from the get go, but Otten needed to be given the chance to recapture his form, to see if he still has it. It's only rd 4 and Shaw is now playing, so no harm done.

I argued for Doughty to be dropped based on his poor preseason, and playing Doughty for the entire season to see us finish 6-12 does us no good. The difference between winning and losing wont be whether Doughty plays or not. Ideally someone like Brown can come on and take his spot, if not we gave up too much for Brown.

AFGM you need to lose the smart arse tone and you might find more people discussing the point, not you.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

And regarding Lyons, has it hurt his development this year in playing the first four games for the Bays? I would say he is coming along bloody well. I think after 3 games in a row in the best, he would feel better about his own game now than if we threw him in round 1 to make BF posters, like yourself happy. I am sure Shaw feels better with his body now that he has strung 2 months of footy together? I am sure Otten doesn't feel hardly done by being dropped back to South to regain form rather than being pushed out because he is 22?

Dropping senior players for being senior players in round 1 doesn't generally happen because it isn't overly smart. They should of been delisted

The point re Shaw & Lyons is good ......Shaw having played limited games in 2 years still would not be trusting his body to standup.

Playing SANFL level would have built his confidence no-end ........he still looks like he's not going 100% IMO
Imagine if he played first AFL game in round 1 and broke down ......this way he has built up miles & gametime ......and now should be confident going into his first game

again wise move Adelaide to introduce Shaw in a game like GWS where the game wont be top pace.

The thingwith Lyons is as long as he is getting feedback on his performance, his opportunity will come

 

[Southerntakeover]

The club is in a quandary. After the shit last two seasons, we need wins to get the new coach off to a good start and get the crowds back. Hence we have played our strongest team on paper, not necessarily form. I understand where AFGM is coming from but our priorities at the moment are to win, not set up the team for 2014.

Are we a shot at the premiership?

If not, isnt this just a repeat of the same fear driven policies which have lead us to this point?

 

[Southerntakeover]

The point re Shaw & Lyons is good ......Shaw having played limited games in 2 years still would not be trusting his body to standup.

Playing SANFL level would have built his confidence no-end ........he still looks like he's not going 100% IMO
Imagine if he played first AFL game in round 1 and broke down ......this way he has built up miles & gametime ......and now should be confident going into his first game

again wise move Adelaide to introduce Shaw in a game like GWS where the game wont be top pace.

The thingwith Lyons is as long as he is getting feedback on his performance, his opportunity will come

Of all the ridiculous reverse logic that I've seen over the years, this is right up there.

The key to creating player confidence at AFL level is to not play them at AFL level. Brilliant!

 

[Freddy Bassett]

Of all the ridiculous reverse logic that I've seen over the years, this is right up there.

The key to creating player confidence at AFL level is to not play them at AFL level. Brilliant!

Yeah you are right.... Good SANFL form for a young kid is bad for their development and confidence

Throw them straight in the deep end... Sink or swim

 

[Southerntakeover]

Yeah you are right.... Good SANFL form for a young kid is bad for their development and confidence

Throw them straight in the deep end... Sink or swim

Why do we play them in the AFL at all? I mean, realistically they're going to get far more from the SANFL.

 

[Freddy Bassett]

Are we a shot at the premiership?

If not, isnt this just a repeat of the same fear driven policies which have lead us to this point?

Was West Coast a shot at the Premiership at the start of last season?

Lets concede defeat before the season starts... Great for morale. I know if I was Dangerfield or Sloane I would be resigning with a club like that

 

[Elite Crow]

Are we a shot at the premiership?

If not, isnt this just a repeat of the same fear driven policies which have lead us to this point?

No we are not, but there is a difference between giving a new coach a confident start to a coaching career and a coach holding on for dear life. So I can see where the club is coming from, but changes need to be made during the season to set up the future. Giving Sando 6-8 weeks of safety is okay as long as that doesn't translate to 22 weeks of it and a middle of the road finish with limited development. As I said, if Doughty plays out the whole season we have stuffed up and we have succumbed to fear and Sandos selection policies will be subject to the same scrutiny Craig faced.

 

[Freddy Bassett]

Why do we play them in the AFL at all? I mean, realistically they're going to get far more from the SANFL.

We play them in the AFL because they are in our best 22 and we are trying to win

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Of all the ridiculous reverse logic that I've seen over the years, this is right up there.

The key to creating player confidence at AFL level is to not play them at AFL level. Brilliant!

Yes in circumstances like Shaw who has had 2 injury riddled years .......most clubs would ease him in

Not saying it's the rule though

 

[Elite Crow]

Was West Coast a shot at the Premiership at the start of last season?

Lets concede defeat before the season starts... Great for morale. I know if I was Dangerfield or Sloane I would be resigning with a club like that

We dont compare to West Coast, their returning senior players are elite. Ours include Doughty and Reilly.

And I agree with STO, playing Shaw in the SANFL to give confidence in his body is ridiculous when his body seemed to hold up fine in the NAB cup and during the preseason.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

We play them in the AFL because they are in our best 22 and we are trying to win

This seems to have been forgotten in this youth v experience debate

Aren't we obligated to try & win each week .......isn't the club culture and player confidence in their team mates depend on this point??

 

[Southerntakeover]

Was West Coast a shot at the Premiership at the start of last season?

Lets concede defeat before the season starts... Great for morale. I know if I was Dangerfield or Sloane I would be resigning with a club like that

West Coast who did bottom out, and picked up some pretty darn good talent doing it?

We need to be realistic about where we're at as a club, and determine what needs to be done to win premierships in the future, rather than selfishly cling to policies that will enable us to win a few more games this year, not give us a shot at the cup, and damage our chances for future success.

How the heck can you possibly think player retention is the justification for continuing the same policies that lead us to back to back garbage finishes, and the loss of key young players? Baffling.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Yes in circumstances like Shaw who has had 2 injury riddled years .......most clubs would ease him in

Not saying it's the rule though

Its a ridiculous argument. His body held up through the entire preseason. Whats more likely to instill confidence in his body, being backed in and told we believe he can do the job, or being dropped on the basis that we percieve him as frail?


Thats just ignoring the giant elephant in the room here. You said we had to be held back to play an easy game first up. We played the ****ing Gold Coast in round one. We had the perfect opportunity to debut him in an 'easy' game.

 

[Geoffa32]

You need senior players around the kids to improve them.

Compare Selwood and Boak.

BOak has spent most of his career with the expectation of being one of Port's best mids.

Selwood has spent most of his career behind guys like Ablett, Chapman, Kelly, Bartel and Ling.

Coming into their prime who is the better player?


Josh Frasier was thrown to the wolves by Collingwood with little on field support. Playing as a Ruckman despite not really being big enough for it. He turned out a dud, after being a number one pick.


Richmond and Melbourne have had a decade of kids thrown to the wolves with few coming out of it as elite players once they hit their prime. Because they had few quality older guys to protect them and learn from on matchday.

Geelong, Hawthorn, Collingwood and WCE have all got the balance right.


This is the reason GWS went for the older guys as "coaches".

 

[Southerntakeover]

We play them in the AFL because they are in our best 22 and we are trying to win

See, thats just a naff way to run a football club.

We have more than just a duty to win games this year. We also have a duty to ensure the future success of the club. Selection needs to take into account the balancing requirements. A refusal to accept the responsibility to develop players is both irresponsible and unprofessional.

 

[Elite Crow]

Look at how Lyon left Saint Kilda for an example

 

[Freddy Bassett]

West Coast who did bottom out, and picked up some pretty darn good talent doing it?

We need to be realistic about where we're at as a club, and determine what needs to be done to win premierships in the future, rather than selfishly cling to policies that will enable us to win a few more games this year, not give us a shot at the cup, and damage our chances for future success.

How the heck can you possibly think player retention is the justification for continuing the same policies that lead us to back to back garbage finishes, and the loss of key young players? Baffling.

So Dangerfield and Tippett will not be swayed by success? You are dreaming..

In those horror years where we kept playing finals how many players walked out on the club?

And since we have been out the finals?

Nah, you are right... Success has nothing to do with player retention.

 

[Elite Crow]

Danger and Tippett aren't going be swayed to stay by a 6-12 finish if they can't see the talent coming through

 

[Southerntakeover]

Noone is arguing that we have no senior players. However- the argument that young guys some how benefit from playing with underperforming senior players is spurious at best.

If an older player is not clearly better than a young player who he is competing with for the same spot, I would prefer we picked the younger player.

 

[Freddy Bassett]

See, thats just a naff way to run a football club.

We have more than just a duty to win games this year. We also have a duty to ensure the future success of the club. Selection needs to take into account the balancing requirements. A refusal to accept the responsibility to develop players is both irresponsible and unprofessional.

Agree. Pick our best 22 at the start of the year. Do as well as we can. When players fall out of form or get injured they are replaced by players like Kerridge, Shaw and hopefully next week Lyons... What is the issue?

You want to end bloke careers before round 1. Doughty should of been delisted if he wasn't in our best 22. Yes, I know Sando wasn't appointed yet, but Noble was and I am sure Noble has input into our club.

How many 30 year old plus players were not picked in round 1 in the whole AFL who were not injured? I wonder why

 

[WaynesWorld19]

You need senior players around the kids to improve them.

Compare Selwood and Boak.

BOak has spent most of his career with the expectation of being one of Port's best mids.

Selwood has spent most of his career behind guys like Ablett, Chapman, Kelly, Bartel and Ling.

Coming into their prime who is the better player?


Josh Frasier was thrown to the wolves by Collingwood with little on field support. Playing as a Ruckman despite not really being big enough for it. He turned out a dud, after being a number one pick.


Richmond and Melbourne have had a decade of kids thrown to the wolves with few coming out of it as elite players once they hit their prime. Because they had few quality older guys to protect them and learn from on matchday.

Geelong, Hawthorn, Collingwood and WCE have all got the balance right.


This is the reason GWS went for the older guys as "coaches".

Some excellent points ........think i heard during the week that the top 4 sides from last year were the 4 oldest

Fact is experience wins grand finals