Fair work commission ruling on Sunday penalty rates

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Hinch is a fat ****. If he cannot display a will towards good health at his age then we cannot take his life views seriously. As he clearly does not value life seriously.

What a fat anti-Australian piece of s**t he is.

Thought he was a Kiwi.
 
Sunday isn't any more special than Saturday. I would abolish penalty rates for weekends. Like others have suggested though, I would like to see an equivalent rise in minimum wages to compensate for that so that overall nothing is lost by either party. Businesses should see a slight reduction in profitability Monday - Friday but a large increase on Saturday and Sunday. The worker should receive a more stable and predictable income with greater flexibility in work hours by not being forced to compete for weekend shifts. The consumer should see more businesses open weekends as it becomes much more viable. It should really be a win-win-win situation...
 

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Wow, Seeds. That's pretty cold, man. Are you a closet Hawthorn supporter?
It's not cold at all. I'm sick of half of Australia being cheerleaders for the poor and the other half being cheerleaders for the rich. Its brought policymaking to a standstill and preventing much needed reform from taking place.

As long as we are in cheerleading mode everyone goes bat crazy if a proposed policy directly makes their team worse no matter what the long run ramifications. Most good reform does have negative consequences in the short run for atleast some group in society but in the long run should benefit all to varying degrees.

How do people expect the rich to accept removals of super benefits, negative gearing benefits etc if the other classes won't accept the removal of distortions that benefit them?
 
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How do people expect the rich to accept removals of super benefits, negative gearing benefits etc if the other classes won't accept the removal of distortions that benefit them?

That assumes treaty there is some sort equality in the current situation. A lot superannuniation and negative gearing is nothing less than a sort that brings no benefit to society and in fact huge negative consequences. For educes almost every last change to the economic system has been in favour of the well off.

getting paid for working night shift, weekends is NOT a distortion. There is a very real cost on the worker.

Is there s shortage of cafes or shops open on sundays now? What is the problem this change is going to address?
 
But fairness and efficiency should also be locked in for those who would suffer the most
it goes both ways. There are distortions that benefit the poor and distortions that benefit the rich. Both need to be removed to create a more prosperous society for all that can eventually provide greater protections for everyone. We need to act like adults and accept the removal of distortions that directly benefit us so those that hurt us and directly benefit others will also be removed.
 
That assumes treaty there is some sort equality in the current situation. A lot superannuniation and negative gearing is nothing less than a sort that brings no benefit to society and in fact huge negative consequences. For educes almost every last change to the economic system has been in favour of the well off.

getting paid for working night shift, weekends is NOT a distortion. There is a very real cost on the worker.

Is there s shortage of cafes or shops open on sundays now? What is the problem this change is going to address?
Having a government mandate double overtime is a distortion. Workers should get more for overtime, night shifts and weekends but a mandated 200 percent? My wife works in industry with double overtime payloads that is a bit under 200 percent for public holidays and Sundays and people jump over each other to get those shifts. That suggests the pay is far in excess of the social costs of working those days. 50 percent sounds more reasonable. Ideally we would have zero percent mandated and let the free market work out the appropriate penalty rate but given the structure of jobs where workers don't yet have enough freedom to choose which days they would like to work each week then a mandate of fifty percent sounds fair. Unions should be focusing on getting more flexibility and worker choice into the market place and less on mandated penalty rates. That way the true social cost of working those shifts would be reflected in the penalty rates.

To be honest mandated 200 percent Sunday penalty rates are far far from the top of the list in terms of market distortions the Australian economy is facing right now. But they are still a distortion the negatively impacts the average standard of living.
 
Having a government mandate double overtime is a distortion. Workers should get more for overtime, night shifts and weekends but a mandated 200 percent? My wife works in industry with double overtime payloads that is a bit under 200 percent for public holidays and Sundays and people jump over each other to get those shifts. That suggests the pay is far in excess of the social costs of working those days. 50 percent sounds more reasonable. Ideally we would have zero percent mandated and let the free market work out the appropriate penalty rate but given the structure of jobs where workers don't yet have enough freedom to choose which days they would like to work each week then a mandate of fifty percent sounds fair. Unions should be focusing on getting more flexibility and worker choice into the market place and less on mandated penalty rates. That way the true social cost of working those shifts would be reflected in the penalty rates.

To be honest mandated 200 percent Sunday penalty rates are far far from the top of the list in terms of market distortions the Australian economy is facing right now. But they are still a distortion the negatively impacts the average standard of living.

really you have a calculator the produces the exact cost in dollar terms of the social costs of working weekends? Really? show me the formula.

There is no such thing as free market. the removal of all regulation would lead to eh massive exportation of workers. Business have time and time again shown no respect for safety, cost to the environment or workers, regulations exist because business will loot society to the ground if left unregulated.
 
For me the concerns are that I don't believe that it will result increase hours worked and a huge number in businesses now opening.

Further if you take into account the proposed changes in the Omnibus bill, and now this when wages have remained stagnant for a while can see why some sectors are upset especially when you take into account that Small Business (rightly so) received some tax relief in the last budget and the proposed tax reduction for business.
 

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Think this might be the start of a slippery slope. I hope Labor gets in and reverses these changes.

I don't work in these industries, but in my occupation shift work and long unsociable hours are the norm. While it was my choice to pursue this work, I still feel that I should be compensated for working Christmas Day/NYE/Easter etc etc.

Sad day for those that depend on these rates.
Labor created the FWC.
 
For me the concerns are that I don't believe that it will result increase hours worked and a huge number in businesses now opening.

Further if you take into account the proposed changes in the Omnibus bill, and now this when wages have remained stagnant for a while can see why some sectors are upset especially when you take into account that Small Business (rightly so) received some tax relief in the last budget and the proposed tax reduction for business.
This is my concern. Any extra wont go back into hiring more workers. The same workers will have to do the same work for less. Agreeing or not with Penalty Rates the argument put up by business owners is complete BS
 
it goes both ways. There are distortions that benefit the poor and distortions that benefit the rich. Both need to be removed to create a more prosperous society for all that can eventually provide greater protections for everyone. We need to act like adults and accept the removal of distortions that directly benefit us so those that hurt us and directly benefit others will also be removed.

don't you think that there it much more important and well fair to start with those distortions that benefit the rich? Why should the working poor, be the first suffer from "reforms".
 
It's not cold at all. I'm sick of half of Australia being cheerleaders for the poor and the other half being cheerleaders for the rich. Its brought policymaking to a standstill and preventing much needed reform from taking place.

As long as we are in cheerleading mode everyone goes bat crazy if a proposed policy directly makes their team worse no matter what the long run ramifications. Most good reform does have negative consequences in the short run for atleast some group in society but in the long run should benefit all to varying degrees.

How do people expect the rich to accept removals of super benefits, negative gearing benefits etc if the other classes won't accept the removal of distortions that benefit them?

Actually, you're right in that compromise is necessary to get things done. Just the way you said it - it struck me as really friggen cold and devoid of empathy. Now I know you meant more than what the mere words were saying, so fair enough on that point:thumbsu:

Lastly, to call a Geelong supporter a paedophile, a zoophile, a product of incest and a defiler of both nature and religion can be laughed off easily. To accuse a Geelong supporter of going for Hawthorn - that is a horror beyond a bridge that went too far in some other direction.

I apologise profusely for that smear on your character Seeds.
 
Inflation is low. Take a look at official CPI figures for the last 10yrs.

I'll come clean - the ins and outs of economics largely shoot straight over my head. A layman's understanding of it would be an optimistic way of looking at it. I suppose I meant that the cost of living keeps on going up - wage rises are necessary in accordance just to keep our heads above the water.

Is this part of a circular argument? I know I've heard some complain that higher wages help drive inflation upwards as well, but once inflation outpaces the means to live via your wages you're gonna need a raise just to keep them bills paid.

It seems like the ouroborous snake chasing its tail forever and forming a pattern that never seems to end.

snake-curled-in-infinity-ring-ouroboros-devouring-vector-6109301.jpg
 
Yep. Labor tried to be "balanced" but it's too pro-employer. Rudd thought if he could embrace the middle ground he would avoid criticism, which just meant their base wasn't happy either.

Hopefully the next Labor Government rectifies the problem.

Why do people believe that Labor were 'balanced' in setting up the FWC and the Libs stacked it with their people?

On a scale of 1-10 where a 5 corresponds to a perfect balance between employers and employees neither party sits at 5.
 
really you have a calculator the produces the exact cost in dollar terms of the social costs of working weekends? Really? show me the formula.
So, you have a formula that says working Sundays is worth double? He didn't even say he had a calculator, he said 50% seems reasonable and in his anecdotal experience the current rates just result in greater demand for shifts than supply.

There is no such thing as free market. the removal of all regulation would lead to eh massive exportation of workers. Business have time and time again shown no respect for safety, cost to the environment or workers, regulations exist because business will loot society to the ground if left unregulated.
There is clearly such a thing as the free market, whether you agree that is how we should be working out wages and conditions is another point. As a country, we decided we wouldn't have a free market and we would regulate wages and conditions. In their infinite wisdom the Labor party put in the Fair Work Commission. The FWC has decided existing Sunday penalty rates are out of touch with modern life and they should be set similar to Saturday rates. However, they only did this for part time and full time employees, casual employees (so uni students and those earning extra money) are less impacted. Now, the Labor party is complaining about the system they set up. The usual suspects are getting behind them because that's the side they cheer for. However, nobody seems to have any backing for why Sundays should get paid more than Saturdays.
 
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This is my concern. Any extra wont go back into hiring more workers. The same workers will have to do the same work for less. Agreeing or not with Penalty Rates the argument put up by business owners is complete BS
That wasn't the experience of New Zealand, where more places opened on Sunday and those that were already open were open longer on average. Plus, it isn't just that there will be more hours to be handed out, many places charge more for Sundays and Public Holidays, these places should be reducing their prices on Sundays. It is fair that this will probably mean those who used to work 6 hours on the weekend will just end up working 8 hours, but they still get paid like they worked 12 hours during the week. It's not that vicious of a change.

I do like that the changes should also encourage more employers to give staff either get part-time or full-time status. This is casualisation of the workforce is a serious problem. I do a lot of work with the banks and it can seriously impact the ability of people to get a mortgage (fair enough from the bank's perspective, but hard for those just starting out).
 

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