Gary Sobers, come on down

[ManWithNoName]

You're the next contestant on 'Idiots R Us'

Sobers says recent Australian teams aren't the best
Cricinfo staff
February 27, 2006

Sir Garry Sobers, one of Wisden's Five Cricketers of the 20th Century, believes Australia's sides of the past decade fall short in any debate over the game's greatest teams. Steve Waugh's men won an unprecedented 16 Tests in a row and the outfits captained by Waugh, Taylor and Ponting have dominated the world, but Sobers told The Australian there were other more powerful squads.

"I never saw Bradman's teams play but you don't even have to go back that far," Sobers said. "I don't think they would have even won a single Test against Clive Lloyd's team, to tell you the truth. Look at how the Aussies struggled against Steve Harmison in England. What would they have done against an attack with Michael Holding, Joel Garner, Colin Croft, Andy Roberts, Malcolm Marshall? The Aussies have done so well for all these years because of two players: Shane Warne and Glenn McGrath."

Warne was also a Cricketer of the Century, but Sobers picked Subhash Gupte as his all-time favourite slow bowler. "Warne's a great, but the best legspinner I've ever seen is still Gupte," he said. "He could do things that I still don't believe all these years later." Gupte played 36 Tests for India, taking 149 wickets at 29.55, and died in Trinidad in 2002. Warne currently holds the world record with 659 victims at 25.15 over a 14-year career

A) Bradmans team would've challenged and possibly beaten Clive Lloyds team, would be thrilling to watch.
B) What on GODS GREEN EARTH does the last Ashes series have to do with Don Bradmans team and Clive Lloyds team?
C) We struggled against Harmison? It was Flintoff and Jones who killed us.
D) Just what has Sobers been smoking?

 

[Romeo]

Crap, typically living in the past. Too obsessed with his own era to give credit where credit's due. He lost me with the Warne bit.

 

[F/D]

West Indies, best team ever.


Would have thrashed the Aussies while STILL sleeping with their misses

 

[SBI]

He's right there though. I don't agree with the Warne comparison, considering I've never heard of Gupte, so I'm no judge.

But Australia would have had a horror time against Holding, Croft, Garner and Roberts. They had a horrible time against lesser bowlers like Simon Jones and Flintoff, imagine them against all time greats.

 

[ManWithNoName]

He's right there though. I don't agree with the Warne comparison, considering I've never heard of Gupte, so I'm no judge.

But Australia would have had a horror time against Holding, Croft, Garner and Roberts. They had a horrible time against lesser bowlers like Simon Jones and Flintoff, imagine them against all time greats.

He said that Clive Lloyds team would've beaten Don Bradmans team. And to justify this claim, he highlighted how he faced Harmison in the most recent Ashes.

Am I the only one who fails to see the relevance there?

 

[SBI]

No, he says Australian sides of the past decade. He said he never saw Bradman's team play, but said he wouldn't have to go back that far to find a team better than the last decade's side.

 

[Grimwood]

Yeah, that paragraph is a bit garbled but the "they" is the Aussie teams of the last decade.

I think it'd be a bit closer than he's suggesting though as McGrath and Gillespie at their peaks would go some way to countering the Windie's pace attack. Not sure how Hayden et al would get on with them mind.

 

[DaveW]

B) What on GODS GREEN EARTH does the last Ashes series have to do with Don Bradmans team and Clive Lloyds team?

Nothing. It has everything to do with the current Australian side.

But on the same theme, you could look at a weakness of the '80s West Indies teams. Theirs was a side that would struggle at the SCG against the likes of Bob Holland and Allan Border. Imagine how they would've fared in a series against a spinner who didn't need favourable conditions to be a menace. Like say... Shane Warne.

 

[eddiesmith]

He is correct in saying the West Indies pace attack would have ripped the current Aussie top order to shreds

If our team of one series wonders can, then probably the greatest attack ever would have with ease

 

[Exe Gesis]

Sobers is right. a) It is his personal/professional judgment, b) That judgment is highly on the mark, not 100%, but up there.

The Australian batting line-up would have struggled far worse against that pace attack than the Windies would have against Warne/McGrath. They would've struggled against Warne/McGrath, but not as much as the Australians. Given the bowlers would have fairly well reduced a good portion of Australian innings' to 100-250 totals, their batsmen (especially being aggressive) would have managed to make 200-400 especially against the Australian fringe bowlers during that time. Plus, there were far more competitive teams during that era, or all-time greats in pretty much every nation, compared to the era the Australians dominated.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

One thing Gary may have overlooked is the West Indian ineptitude against quality leg spin bowling. They never faced a bowler of Warne's ability in their "reign of terror", and I really don't think the West Indies would have topped 200 very often against Warne.

 

[Grimwood]

With bowlers of that class around I think either team would do well to reach over 250. The Windies would probably win if Sir Viv had a good series though, I'm not sure he'd have too many troubles against Warne if he got his eye in..

 

[sting]

Gee who didn't struggle against the West Indian attack of that time ?
But Australia would have a few weapons of there own . Mcgrath and Gillespie at peak and ofcourse Warne .
Its no suprise that Sobers would think that the Windies would win , but i think it would be tighter then what he thinks .

 

[kaysee]

Sobers is right in saying our sides would struggle against Llyod's side with Holding, Garner, Croft, Marshall and Roberts. Our best batting line up of Hayden, Taylor, Ponting, Martyn, S.Waugh, Langer, Gilchrist would find it difficult to handle that attack.

Hayden - would be fodder.
Taylor - would hold his own without being dominating.
Ponting - would do ok.
Martyn - would be fodder.
S. Waugh - would fight til the death.
Langer - would struggle.
Gilchrist - would be hit or miss but if he starts hitting LOOK OUT.

Conversely our best attack of McGrath, Gillespie, (Bichel, Kaspo, Lee) and Warne would not contain their batsmen.

 

[Choota]

Conversely our best attack of McGrath, Gillespie, (Bichel, Kaspo, Lee) and Warne would not contain their batsmen.

Absolute crap. McGrath and Warne have played in an era of superior batsmen and have dominated nonetheless.

 

[Brian Lara]

I grew up in the West Indies despite being Australian born and got to see Ambrose, Walsh and Lara at their best (to name a few). I was a little bit too young to remember the golden era before but I have educated myself to that teams performances and players through a library of vision I've collected over time.

Ponting, Hayden and Langer were all average batsman early in their careers when there was plently of A-grade quality quicks around. Akram, Ambrose and Donald to name a few made those particular Australian batsman look average. At present top quality quicks are few and far between (depending on what you define as A-grade there might not be any) and the pitches are as batsman friendly as ever. You just wonder how Viv would've gone on some of todays wickets ?

The Australian batsman seem to struggle on any wicket that seams or when the balls swinging. The primary reason why they lost the Ashes and probably the main reason they'll lose alot in South Africa. Wickets of days gone by offered alot more assistance to the bowlers than they do now.

 

[ECHUCABOY]

Sobers is right in saying our sides would struggle against Llyod's side with Holding, Garner, Croft, Marshall and Roberts. Our best batting line up of Hayden, Taylor, Ponting, Martyn, S.Waugh, Langer, Gilchrist would find it difficult to handle that attack.

Hayden - would be fodder.
Taylor - would hold his own without being dominating.
Ponting - would do ok.
Martyn - would be fodder.
S. Waugh - would fight til the death.
Langer - would struggle.
Gilchrist - would be hit or miss but if he starts hitting LOOK OUT.

Conversely our best attack of McGrath, Gillespie, (Bichel, Kaspo, Lee) and Warne would not contain their batsmen.

Thats pretty stupid you cant know how players would go. Australia managed to go alright against curtly and walsh, probably the two most successful.

That being said, I think it is ridiculous that someone with the pedigree Sobers does would even try to compare sides. There are way too many variables involved with comparing sides and nobody knows who would do this or that.

My god imagine being a batsmen playing against that Windies attack, I play with a bloke, Jim who played for Australias country side and they played a touring match against pretty much that attack.

Jim was out there batting and the partner come down to meet him mid pitch and said "gee mate that holdings not that quick, is he?" Jim noticed that the keeper heard his partner and he then ran down and whispered something to holding. He reckons that next over from holding is was the most ********** scared he has ever been.

Its a great story, he was saying how far the ball was carrying aswell. It would be unbelieveable to see a pace attack like that again.

 

[ECHUCABOY]

I grew up in the West Indies despite being Australian born and got to see Ambrose, Walsh and Lara at their best (to name a few). I was a little bit too young to remember the golden era before but I have educated myself to that teams performances and players through a library of vision I've collected over time.

Ponting, Hayden and Langer were all average batsman early in their careers when there was plently of A-grade quality quicks around. Akram, Ambrose and Donald to name a few made those particular Australian batsman look average. At present top quality quicks are few and far between (depending on what you define as A-grade there might not be any) and the pitches are as batsman friendly as ever. You just wonder how Viv would've gone on some of todays wickets ?

The Australian batsman seem to struggle on any wicket that seams or when the balls swinging. The primary reason why they lost the Ashes and probably the main reason they'll lose alot in South Africa. Wickets of days gone by offered alot more assistance to the bowlers than they do now.

Australia struggle on any wicket that seams, take out the Ashes and then name a time and place when they have struggled. there is way too much generalising when it comes to Australias inability to play on a rough deck. This Australian team won a series in India, which a lot of great teams surely have struggled to do.

Might have a look to see what the Windies have done..

After a quick search the WI won in India twice and in Pakistan in a 5 year period, not bad at all.

 

[usalion]

He is correct in saying the West Indies pace attack would have ripped the current Aussie top order to shreds

If our team of one series wonders can, then probably the greatest attack ever would have with ease

And there we have the admission, ladies and gentlemen.....

Seriously- no way would you pit Australia of 2005-6 against the top Windies side...pick a team when guys were in their pomp- I would go forthe 1998 Aussies when Lee had JUST come into theside and was destroying people- or maybe the 16 in a row...and I'd guarantee Sobers would want Holding and co in their prime.... from memory, 1983 or 1984.

A whitewash? No.... A West Indian win? Maybe, but what pitches are you playing on? Let them pick 5 grounds in the Carribean and we do the same in Oz....and may the better side win.

If I were picking for the Aussies, I'dprobably leave out Perth- just too suited to the Windies- play Hobart as the fifth Test- or schedule two at the SCG.

I don't think you would have many draws, apart from weather problems.

 

[sting]

Now all we need is Neil Harvey to say how easily any of the Austrlian sides he played in would beat any Australian side of the past 10 years .

 

[scooter600x]

Greenidge, Fredericks, Rowe, Kallichiran, Richards, Lloyd, Murray, Julian, Roberts, Holding, Gibbs.

What a team.

Shame Ian Chappell's side smashed them 5-1.

 

[crownie]

i would think if the Winides team of the 80's played the aussie team it wouldnt be in england and the windies wouldnt chew on mints so how the Aussies battered in England has got nothing to do with a Windies 80's vs Australia 00 match.

 

[Fred]

Now all we need is Neil Harvey to say how easily any of the Austrlian sides he played in would beat any Australian side of the past 10 years .

Considering he was in Bradman's '48 side, he's probably right.

 

[crownie]

Considering he was in Bradman's '48 side, he's probably right.

so a guy in Collingwoods 4 flags say they would of beaten Brisbane, that makes it true?

 

[Exe Gesis]

Collingwood's side and Bradman & Co. are a world of class apart.