Oppo Camp General AFL and other clubs discussion thread. **Opposition fans not welcome** Part 5

[wahawk]

The argument over WCE, Cox , their midfield & their premiership is pretty silly really.

Cox played, their midfield played, they won.

we will never know & could never know if they’d won with a different ruckman

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

Honestly can't see Degoey himself leaving, he will be offered a lot by Collingwood for his next contract, will more likely be some peripheral players making moves to accommodate him

If we showed strong interest he would consider us. Particularly if we have a good year. Still be playing at a big club with a rich history which is what I think he is drawn to. We're not Norf who he practically laughed at.

 

[Brishawk]

I'm talking about replacing one player who was part of a dominant midfield unit, not replacing the entire midfield.

Yes but you are also talking about making a ruck division infinitely worse. Manifestly, if you take one player out of a two player unit it is going to have a bigger impact than taking one player out of a 6 player unit filled with elite talent.

 

[Brishawk]

His point still stands. History is littered with 'average' premiership ruckmen, yet on the other hand I can't think of one premiership team in recent memory that lacked a dominant midfielder.


We'll never know. These are just opinions and can't be proven one way or the other. But the banter is fun nonetheless.

Players like cox and Grundy are incredibly rare. Much rarer than elite mids.

 

[Brant]

Grundy worth every cent. 5 years best but 7 is better than losing him to SA.

Depends on what you get in return when 'losing' him.

Pick 19 like we got for Buddy - sure; that's a massive loss. 2x 1sts + a $1m to buy 2x KPF????

= circular argument, I guess.

 

[Brant]

If we showed strong interest he would consider us. Particularly if we have a good year. Still be playing at a big club with a rich history which is what I think he is drawn to. We're not Norf who he practically laughed at.

You're posting as if you have some inside info AlwaysHawks15

 

[Topiary]

If we showed strong interest he would consider us. Particularly if we have a good year. Still be playing at a big club with a rich history which is what I think he is drawn to. We're not Norf who he practically laughed at.

What he said. Just remember we will have plenty, plenty of Cap space. What will Collingwood have ?!?!.
If he is the “power” player Clarko gives the nod to.
We have plenty to land a FA AND a uncontracted target. We also have the trading capacity.

 

[Dewnior]

Players like cox and Grundy are incredibly rare. Much rarer than elite mids.

Yet are never quite good enough to ever become captains of their clubs.

Here is a list of the last 20 premiership captains, not one of them a ruckman, and over half are/were elite midfielders.

I would take every one of those players ahead of the rucks from their premiership team.

Cotchin
Hurn
Wood
Hodge
McVeigh
Ling
Maxwell
Harley
Mitchell
Judd
Hall
Tredrea
Voss
Hird

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Yet are never quite good enough to ever become captains of their clubs.

Here is a list of the last 20 premiership captains, not one of them a ruckman, and over half are/were elite midfielders.

I would take every one of those players ahead of the rucks from their premiership team.

Cotchin
Hurn
Wood
Hodge
McVeigh
Ling
Maxwell
Harley
Mitchell
Judd
Hall
Tredrea
Voss
Hird

I don't see any full backs, half forwards, forward pockets or wingmen either. I guess that means we can win without them too?

And the fact that Cox or Grundy were/are not captains has literally nothing to do with how good they are as players.

 

[A Cut Above]

What he said. Just remember we will have plenty, plenty of Cap space. What will Collingwood have ?!?!.

A virtually infinite salary cap if history is any guide. There's been rumors of Eddie offering Collingwood players & WAGS jobs at Channel 9 to facilitate it.

 

[Dewnior]

I don't see any full backs, half forwards, forward pockets or wingmen either. I guess that means we can win without them too?

And the fact that Cox or Grundy were/are not captains has literally nothing to do with how good they are as players.

The discussion is about the value of an elite ruck and whether clubs over-invest in them.

Posters have argued that elite rucks rarely if ever feature in premiership teams and have questioned their value which I agree with.

I am merely using data to substantiate my opinion that an elite midfield leader is worth more to me than an elite ruck.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

The discussion is about the value of an elite ruck and whether clubs over-invest in them.

Posters have argued that elite rucks rarely if ever feature in premiership teams and have questioned their value which I agree with.

I am merely using data to substantiate my opinion that an elite midfield leader is worth more to me than an elite ruck.

I'd say that that's simply because elite midfielders are much more common than elite ruckmen, and no other reason really. Right now there are two elite ruckmen in the league, whilst there is a dozen or more elite midfielders.

Prior to Grundy and Gawn there was Cox, and prior to him there was Salmon - I'm talking about players that were in the discussion of being one of the best players in the league.

 

[Millsie69]

Darcy Moore could be squeezed out at the Pies. Could’ve been getable at the end of an injury-ravaged 2018 but worth a lot more after a ripping 2019.

Would love him at the Hawks

 

[Holy Rioli]

Darcy Moore could be squeezed out at the Pies. Could’ve been getable at the end of an injury-ravaged 2018 but worth a lot more after a ripping 2019.

Would love him at the Hawks

I'm hearing the squeeze is definitely on but Collingwood are hoping Beams will retire. Will still lose Cox as well. If push comes to shove though I'm hearing they'd prefer to lose De Goey over Moore purely based on how hard it is to get elite KPP players.

 

[Easy Slips Catch]

Salmon (at Hawthorn) was the best pure ruck I have seen. We never looked like winning anything. Point being you need a spread of players. Pies have a very suspect spine. They go and spend a truckload on their midfield. Given their mids are already handy, perhaps had they used the cap space for a KPF and brought in a Ceglar type they would have had a greater net gain.

 

[Brishawk]

Yet are never quite good enough to ever become captains of their clubs.

Here is a list of the last 20 premiership captains, not one of them a ruckman, and over half are/were elite midfielders.

I would take every one of those players ahead of the rucks from their premiership team.

Cotchin
Hurn
Wood
Hodge
McVeigh
Ling
Maxwell
Harley
Mitchell
Judd
Hall
Tredrea
Voss
Hird

 

[B&GBlood]

Yet are never quite good enough to ever become captains of their clubs.

Here is a list of the last 20 premiership captains, not one of them a ruckman, and over half are/were elite midfielders.

I would take every one of those players ahead of the rucks from their premiership team.

Cotchin
Hurn
Wood
Hodge
McVeigh
Ling
Maxwell
Harley
Mitchell
Judd
Hall
Tredrea
Voss
Hird

I would take Mathew Primus ahead of Treadre, go back and watch the service he gave that Port midfiled.

 

[Big Hotdog]

I would take Mathew Primus ahead of Treadre, go back and watch the service he gave that Port midfiled.

Good call
But as good as Primus was Tredders was pretty decent himself. Below is a description of his 2004 premiership season.
He booted 81 goals (career best) and took 192 marks playing in all 25 of the Power's games for the season as well as reaping a host of awards, including his fourth All-Australian centre half forward guernsey, the All-Australian vice-captaincy, his second John Cahill Medal as Port's Best and Fairest player, the AFL Coaches' Association Most Valuable Player award, the Showdown Medal, a raft of media awards and was the pre-count favourite for the Brownlow Medal,

 

[KermitJagger]

So you never rated Cox then?

If you want to put a metric on it, rucks have the greatest variability year-to-year on performances which can be measured by AA selections. Particularly in more recent times. There are far more one-and-done AA selections per available spot as ruckmen than other positions; Minson, Ryder, Goldstein, Lade.

I know it's a terrible way to measure, but they also have the greatest year-to-year variability when it comes to Supercoach scores as well.

They also don't appear to be hugely important when it comes to winning premierships, given the last premier that won with an AA ruck was West Coast with Cox in 2006.

 

[KermitJagger]

I've spoken to a fair few people that know footy better than I do, and have played at the highest level, and most of them agree that Grundy is a fantastic player - but it's all about what you want from your ruckmen. Quite a few are of the opinion that they'd rather have someone that plays a more stereotypical ruck role as opposed to being another midfielder. I tend to agree a bit.

Gawn is the more valuable team ruck, where Grundy is the better footballer.

 

[Hawk Dork]

The proof is in the silver cups

 

[Carl Spackler]

Man, we need someone to get busted snorting coke like Tony Montana. Or playing doctor with a teammate's wife. Anything to save this thread and salvage the off season conversation

 

[Milkshaker]

A virtually infinite salary cap if history is any guide. There's been rumors of Eddie offering Collingwood players & WAGS jobs at Channel 9 to facilitate it.

Yep no one leaves. Beams left for family. That is about it.

 

[Brant]

Man, we need someone to get busted snorting coke like Tony Montana. Or playing doctor with a teammate's wife. Anything to save this thread and salvage the off season conversation

Jack Watts, you're up...

 

[Davo23]

Yet are never quite good enough to ever become captains of their clubs.

Here is a list of the last 20 premiership captains, not one of them a ruckman, and over half are/were elite midfielders.

I would take every one of those players ahead of the rucks from their premiership team.

Cotchin
Hurn
Wood
Hodge
McVeigh
Ling
Maxwell
Harley
Mitchell
Judd
Hall
Tredrea
Voss
Hird

What is more interesting is this list of Hawthorn premiership ruckmen:

1. John Winneke
2. Don Scott
3. Ian Paton
4. Greg Dear
5. Stephen Lawrence
6. Robert Campbell
7. Max Bailey
8. David Hale
9. Ben McEvoy

All of them were great contributors, each one gave 100% to every contest, and helped us to win 13 premierships: they were all highly rated by the club and the coaches.
Don Scott would be the only ruckman rated in the top 3 ruckmen in the competition at the time.
John Winneke is better known for being the Chief Judge of the Court of Appeal.

Most of them would barely be recognised by opposition supporters as better than average.

But they won us premierships!