Has Lance Franklin surpassed Wayne Carey as the greatest key forward of the modern era?

[RUNVS]

He is relative to the way football was played in the 90s

Buddy moves up the ground almost as much as Carey did, and he kicks a lot more goals. Buddy does not stay in the forward 50.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Buddy moves up the ground almost as much as Carey did, and he kicks a lot more goals. Buddy does not stay in the forward 50.

You didnt watch Careys career so how would you know?

 

[Monkey King]

Yes, and in the 90's he did not kick anywhere near the number of goals as a lot of other key forwards of the era. Buddy though, he is well on top in his era.

Huh? Carey was a true CHF. Kicked more goals than any CHF of his generation. In his prime, the bloke took 200 marks in a season. This was before contested mark stats were recorded, but later in his career when his shoulders were shot, he’d come close to taking 50% of his marks contested. Imagine how many goals he’d have kicked playing closer to goal in his prime with that kind of ability? But he would’ve been wasted playing closer to goal, when guys like Longmire and McKernan could get on the end of his more influential work up the ground.

Buddy still behind Carey, Ablett and Lockett for mine, but it’s no insult to be on a list just behind those names.

 

[Snake_Baker]

The only reason Franklin is in this discussion is because he has freakish athleticism for his height, and generally requires a mismatch to fire.

Carey was a generic height and weight for a CHF in his time and took on all shapes and sizes and beat them.

 

[Trav 20]

North didn't implement Pagan's Paddock until half way through 1996, which was Carey's 8th season. And it benefitted the quick runners Brett Allison and Abraham as much as Carey. Until then Carey had played the true CHF position. I don't know the exact answer to the next question, but like most tactics I guess it was relatively short-lived and probably only lasted 18 months, or so. They won the flag in 96, so it was beneficial.

It's hard judging players from different eras. Unquestionably, Carey was the best CHF from his era. He was more dominant in his era than Franklin in his era.

Franklin is an incredible athlete. Probably the best we've ever seen. But I like key forwards to be strong contested marks, which obviously Franklin isn't. So when I look at Carey's era dominance when compared to Franklin's, and factor in Carey's far superior marking it's a pretty easy choice. Carey was the superior player.

Also, North had a dominant full forward in Carey's era. Longmire kicked 490 goals while Carey was a listed North player, including 4 times kicking 75 goals or more and twice in the 90s. Judging Carey and Franklin purely on goals is a misnomer. Carey would often look to Longmire, because he would be in a better position, i.e. closer to goal. That's how footy was played then.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

The only reason Franklin is in this discussion is because he has freakish athleticism for his height, and generally requires a mismatch to fire.

Carey was a generic height and weight for a CHF in his time and took on all shapes and sizes and beat them.

Yeah look, that’s not the only reason he’s in the discussion at all.

Franklin will retire as one of the best forwards the game has ever seen, on the back of his talent, his work ethic and his output.

I don’t know who you’ve been watching if you think he “generally requires a mismatch to fire”.

 

[DangerSloane]

Buddy has 4 colemans, and he has lead the goal kicking at his club 10 times. Compare that to Carey who never won the Coleman and only head his clubs goal kicking 5 times.

If all we were judging on was goals then there wouldnt be much of a discussion.

Until Buddy can take an overhead mark I will still say that Carey is better.
Considering he still cant at this point in his career, he probably never will.

 

[Xtreme]

Jonathan Brown was still better than all of them!

 

[Oliver09]

I am offering a different opinion. Also think how damaging Franklin would be if he was allowed to have an entire forward 50 to himself with only a single defender with him like Carey was sometimes allowed.

Franklin wouldn't have the ability to outmark his opponent plus the other defenders coming into the contest that Carey did in the days of Pagans paddock. That only happened from 98 onwards anyway. He kicked a lot of goals as a traditional CHF before that when Longmire, McKernan, Roberts & even McAdam were kicking plenty of goals themselves.

 

[Trav 20]

Franklin wouldn't have the ability to outmark his opponent plus the other defenders coming into the contest that Carey did in the days of Pagans paddock. That only happened from 98 onwards anyway. He kicked a lot of goals as a traditional CHF before that when Longmire, McKernan, Roberts & even McAdam were kicking plenty of goals themselves.

It started round 12, 1996 in their premiership year.

 

[Monkey King]

I am offering a different opinion. Also think how damaging Franklin would be if he was allowed to have an entire forward 50 to himself with only a single defender with him like Carey was sometimes allowed.

Didn’t quite work like this though. What you’re thinking of is more the way the Hawks played it with Peter Hudson. In Pagan’s paddock, Carey was just the last forward, closest to goal, with space behind him and still often double teamed. He’d either mark the ball and kick em from around the 50, or kick forward to smaller players streaming towards goal, or if he didn’t mark, still control the contest enough to get the ball out to the teammates running forward. Occasionally he’d be able to use his pace to run towards goal himself if players had yet to fill the paddock. It worked for him because he was a brute in the marking contest, which is what the tactic relied on. I’m not sure Franklin could pull this off. Still, Pagan’s paddock was a relatively short era in the span of Carey’s career.

To see how Carey did most of his work, check this clip. At 0.42 is classic Carey at his best, a strong mark from two opponents and a thumping goal from the edge of the square. The most dominant player I’ve seen.

 

[tigerT]

Carey was on another level for mine in terms of sheer dominance. 2nd best player Ive ever seen play the game behind GA snr.

Having said that Buddy sits comfortably in second place ahead of a number of very good key forwards over the past 20 years.

I am fascinated to see how buddy goes this season and beyond - I noticed his ability to cover ground and speed seemed to diminish from about halfway through last season(has come back to humanoid levels), hes turning 31 this month, is age catching up with him? The biggest strength he had was almost being impossible to match up on bc of his athleticism and agility for such a big guy. Wwhen that goes, how will he go? Still be dangerous or rendered ineffective bc of his lack of contested marking?

 

[matey]

Carey as a total package probably a nose in front. He is right up there in the number of times he turned and influenced games off his own back. He was a leader of men .... one of those players that would show his team mates, "Come on fellas follow me". His onfield presence was amazing.

Buddy more athletic, better runner and a player that gets you arse off the seat a lot just from what he can do. I was in the forward pocket where he twice outran Hooker, bounced the ball in slippery conditions and kicked it while running 100kph. I was also at Docklands close to the fence when from outside 50 he kicked a goal after the siren against the Crows in a final and he saluted us while we were going crazy. Amazing player but Buddy is not close to the King in the leadership and onfield presence stakes.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

North didn't implement Pagan's Paddock until half way through 1996, which was Carey's 8th season. And it benefitted the quick runners Brett Allison and Abraham as much as Carey. Until then Carey had played the true CHF position. I don't know the exact answer to the next question, but like most tactics I guess it was relatively short-lived and probably only last 18 months. They won the flag in 96, so it was beneficial.

It's hard judging players from different eras. Unquestionably, Carey was the best CHF from his era. He was more dominant in his era than Franklin in his era.

Franklin is an incredible athlete. Probably the best we've ever seen. But I like key forwards to be strong contested marks, which obviously Franklin isn't. So when I look at Carey's era dominance when compared to Franklin's, and factor in Carey's far superior marking it's a pretty easy choice. Carey was the superior player.

Also, North had a dominant full forward in Carey's era. Longmire kicked 490 goals while Carey was a listed North player, including 4 times kicking 75 goals or more and twice in the 90s. Judging Carey and Franklin purely on goals is a misnomer. Carey would often look to Longmire, because he would be in a better position, i.e. closer to goal. That's how footy was played then.

Whilst I would also have Carey marginally ahead, I am not sure about some of your reasoning. "Carey was more dominant in his era than Franklin in his" Based on what? Franklin has undoubtedly been the best key forward in his era. He has 7 All-Australians (same as Carey and is still going). Franklin has 150 more goals (i.e. 21% more) than the next best of his era (Riewoldt, who at this stage has played many more games).

"factor in Carey's far superior marking it's a pretty easy choice". No doubt Carey was a better mark (though Franklin is not the slouch he is made out to be, just not as dominant as Carey). However, Franklin is faster, a longer kick, more athletic and better without the ball (tackling and pressure).

"Also, North had a dominant full forward in Carey's era. Longmire kicked 490 goals" Roughead was just as good a FF as Longmire. In fact, Roughead has more career goals than Longmire despite individual tallies being 30-50% lower now than in Longmire's era.

With all that said, I still have Carey just ahead. Best player I've seen - had every tool. Carey also has 4 B&F's to Franklin's 1 and 2 MVP's to Franklin's 0 (although 2008 Franklin was runner up to an incredible year from Ablett). If Franklin ends up with a few more AA's, Colemans, etc he could still go past IMO but otherwise it's Carey.

 

[Vic pokiesmon]

The only reason Franklin is in this discussion is because he has freakish athleticism for his height, and generally requires a mismatch to fire.

Carey was a generic height and weight for a CHF in his time and took on all shapes and sizes and beat them.

From memory Carey and Jakovich broke even after there duels

 

[DangerSloane]

The thing with Bud is he is a one trick pony.
He is just so darn good at that trick, and blessed with complimentary assets that help to pull it off.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

The thing with Bud is he is a one trick pony.
He is just so darn good at that trick, and blessed with complimentary assets that help to pull it off.

What's the trick?

 

[captain cotch 9]

Carey is the King and always will be.
Buddy will be the Prince though

 

[DangerSloane]

What's the trick?

beat the opponent with speed which leads to a chest mark or a running goal on the arc.

No pack marks
No overhead marks without 2 grabs
No right foot
Not great vision

I understand why would he bother with anything else if what he does works for him.
Its a bit like Lebron James. Relies heavily on being a level above in athleticism and being very fast for his size.

That is why I wont put him on the same level as Carey.

Just my opinion though.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

beat the opponent with speed which leads to a chest mark or a running goal on the arc.

No pack marks
No overhead marks without 2 grabs
No right foot
Not great vision

I understand why would he bother with anything else if what he does works for him.
Its a bit like Lebron James. Relies heavily on being a level above in athleticism and being very fast for his size.

That is why I wont put him on the same level as Carey.

Just my opinion though.

Certainly his most common route to goals but...

He gets plenty of his own ball in congestion and/or off the ground.
He uses plenty of power to crash through packs and break tackles.
He is still likely to retire with the 2nd most contested marks on record.
He still takes plenty of overhead marks (it is only 'weaker' in comparison to his other ridiculously elite attributes).
He has pin point accuracy around the ground and can really set up play.
He is elite for his position in applying pressure and sticking tackles.

Certainly not a one trick pony in the sense of 'lead, mark, goal' or 'get ball, bomb it long' and absolutely nothing else in the more traditional sense of the word/phrase.

 

[DangerSloane]

Certainly his most common route to goals but...

He gets plenty of his own ball in congestion and/or off the ground.
He uses plenty of power to crash through packs and break tackles.
He is still likely to retire with the 2nd most contested marks on record.
He still takes plenty of overhead marks (it is only 'weaker' in comparison to his other ridiculously elite attributes).
He has pin point accuracy around the ground and can really set up play.
He is elite for his position in applying pressure and sticking tackles.

Certainly not a one trick pony in the sense of 'lead, mark, goal' or 'get ball, bomb it long' and absolutely nothing else in the more traditional sense of the word/phrase.

I wouldnt say plenty. He gets some. Certainly not limited to playing full forward, but that goes for all players these days. There arent many that dont go in and get their own ball on occasion.
He does use power to break tackles, but once again its his natural gifts and athleticism that allow that.
Contested marks, where about 10% of them are one grab. Helps being 6 foot 6 or whatever he is. His contested marking is poor, no matter what the totals say.
His kicking has improved around the ground out of sight. It was average when he started. His goal kicking was somewhat the same.

Not by any means trying to say that Buddy isnt a great of the game, but he certainly has some glaring flaws which are overcome by natural gifts.

 

[Snake_Baker]

From memory Carey and Jakovich broke even after there duels

Yes, my point is that he could beat a player of that size.

How many marks do you think Franklin would take on Jakovich?

 

[DangerSloane]

Yes, my point is that he could beat a player of that size.

How many marks do you think Franklin would take on Jakovich?

Depends on how much space he had.
In 1990s...not many
In 2010s...quite a few

Buddy would have space to burn Jakovich these days
In the 90s he wouldnt have gotten many.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Depends on how much space he had.
In 1990s...not many
In 2010s...quite a few

Buddy would have space to burn Jakovich these days
In the 90s he wouldnt have gotten many.

Oh, I have no doubt Buddy could get "some" marks.............on the wing.

 

[Trav 20]

Whilst I would also have Carey marginally ahead, I am not sure about some of your reasoning. "Carey was more dominant in his era than Franklin in his" Based on what? Franklin has undoubtedly been the best key forward in his era. He has 7 All-Australians (same as Carey and is still going). Franklin has 150 more goals (i.e. 21% more) than the next best of his era (Riewoldt, who at this stage has played many more games).

"factor in Carey's far superior marking it's a pretty easy choice". No doubt Carey was a better mark (though Franklin is not the slouch he is made out to be, just not as dominant as Carey). However, Franklin is faster, a longer kick, more athletic and better without the ball (tackling and pressure).

"Also, North had a dominant full forward in Carey's era. Longmire kicked 490 goals" Roughead was just as good a FF as Longmire. In fact, Roughead has more career goals than Longmire despite individual tallies being 30-50% lower now than in Longmire's era.

With all that said, I still have Carey just ahead. Best player I've seen - had every tool. Carey also has 4 B&F's to Franklin's 1 and 2 MVP's to Franklin's 0 (although 2008 Franklin was runner up to an incredible year from Ablett). If Franklin ends up with a few more AA's, Colemans, etc he could still go past IMO but otherwise it's Carey.

Based on my eyes.

Carey rarely had a quiet game. Franklin has plenty. Carey averaged more disposals in an era that had 20-25% less disposals due to a lower possession rate. Carey averaged more marks and a took lot more contested marks.

Carey epitomised key position play. Franklin's as much a tall flanker as a KPF.