NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[RJK Tiger]

You’re attempting to undermine decades of his life nurturing and guiding 100’s of young men into adulthood as well as voluntarily giving up large amounts of his free time on initiatives to help the indigenous communities in both Australia and the Tiwi islands without being paid for that luxury. What have you done besides rap away on your keyboard and cast judgment and spout vitriol? Do you never catch a glimpse of your reflection and feel embarrassed?

They are doing nothing of the sort.

What we are doing is reading a report commissioned by an independent 3rd party and giving our feedback of that.

 

[Forward Press]

You’re attempting to undermine decades of his life nurturing and guiding 100’s of young men into adulthood as well as voluntarily giving up large amounts of his free time on initiatives to help the indigenous communities in both Australia and the Tiwi islands without being paid for that luxury. What have you done besides rap away on your keyboard and cast judgment and spout vitriol? Do you never catch a glimpse of your reflection and feel embarrassed?

I am going to be clear and say that Clarko isn't one of them from the outset, but plenty of people who society thought were nice role models turned out be monsters behind closed doors. Doing volunteer work for indigenous people does not automatically preclude him from saying what has been alleged by those indigenous players.

 

[seysearles]

They are doing nothing of the sort.

What we are doing is reading a report commissioned by an independent 3rd party and giving our feedback of that.

Are you factoring clarksons career record of getting the best out of the men he has had under him as well as almost obsession with community involvement and the importance of family, when assessing the validity of those allegations?

 

[Bombermania]

Its a report commissioned by Hawthorn regarding indigenous player feedback, with strict conditions made by Hawthorn that only indigenous players be contacted. The ABC only reported on a report that already existed. It was not their job or role to research the research of a report - they are reporting on the report, as it exist.

The ABC contacted the 3 coaches for comment and they did not respond

The breakdown between the relationship of Cyril and the club revolved around the clubs treatment of aboriginal players.

You have NFI where you are at with this.

None of that contridicts what I have said in this thread.

 

[seysearles]

I am going to be clear and say that Clarko isn't one of them from the outset, but plenty of people who society thought were nice role models turned out be monsters behind closed doors. Doing volunteer work for indigenous people does not automatically preclude him from saying what has been alleged by those indigenous players.

And to what ends would he have been crafting this charade? In order to covertly carry out this racist scheme against these three individuals and their families? I just won’t allow myself to be that cynical.

 

[RJK Tiger]

Are you factoring clarksons career record of getting the best out of the men he has had under him as well as almost obsession with community involvement and the importance of family, when assessing the validity of those allegations?

No i am not. Much like i didn't pay any attention to all the charity stuff people like Weinstein etc did. Why? Because its not about that - its about the stories told by these players & their families, nothing else. They are being judged for these incidents and nothing else, as per the article

 

[Royce Hafey]

Are you factoring clarksons career record of getting the best out of the men he has had under him as well as almost obsession with community involvement and the importance of family, when assessing the validity of those allegations?

Which priority do you think was most important? Was it "getting the best out of the men he has under him"? Was his "almost obsession with community involvement"? Or was it the "importance of family"? Because, what if getting a premiership was number one and the others followed from that. Because that what we all expect and want isn't it? That's the force that drives our clubs. That's what has traditionally driven the management of successful footy clubs. Graeme Richmond back in the day would leave notes in the lockers of players telling them they had to report to other clubs. How much was the family stuff spin?

 

[seysearles]

No i am not. Much like i didn't pay any attention to all the charity stuff people like Weinstein etc did. Why? Because its not about that - its about the stories told by these players & their families, nothing else. They are being judged for these incidents and nothing else, as per the article

I appreciate that you admit that. Thankfully courts of law do take into account the character, credibility and track records of both the person being accused and the person making the accusations. Why do they do that? Because it’s extremely relevant to the determining the likelihood and the veracity of the claims.

 

[sr36]

Are you factoring clarksons career record of getting the best out of the men he has had under him as well as almost obsession with community involvement and the importance of family, when assessing the validity of those allegations?

Not necessarily wording that you'd want to use in a defence in this context, making him sound much more "Family First" than I imagine him being.

 

[Rob R]

People keep saying we just need to wait for Clarko’s side of the story. Well, how long does it take for him to get his story together? Besides a generic denial, he doesn’t actually seem in a rush to give his side of the story. But the longer he waits, the more white knights seem to come out in his defence.

Not saying he has a defence but wouldn't it be better if he provides a defence in private to the investigation rather than as an example publically name the players and provide his context or proof that they lied (I doubt they lied, at most exaggerated)

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Corleone]

You are a disgrace.

Some of these North supporters in this thread are a joke.

If Clarkson had gone to Essendon instead of signing with their club they'd be singing a different tune. Hypocrites.

 

[H2F]

Has anyone considered the fact that the abortion story just isn’t true. I am not suggesting that, but let’s just imagine that it isn’t true.

How do you imagine Clarko or Fagan feeling right now?

As I said I’m not suggesting that, but I’m typing it because it seems like so many on here refuse to admit it is possible. If it’s not true, then I hope the two of them get the support they deserve too. Given the alleged player came to training to share the story with team mates and coaches, you’d imagine there would be some people who remember this. What if no one remembers it, what is Clarko and Fagan deny it. What happens then? The more this goes on the more I’m stunned by the commentary. Players told stories of pain and trauma and we need to hear them and we need to get far better at protecting them (all players). But we also need to know what happened to do that. It is possible it’s not true. What if a player told his partner the club said she had to abort because he wanted that. It’s possible isn’t it? Again I’m not suggesting this, but for those just hanging to chop the head of Clarko when he hasn’t had the chance to be interviewed, where witnesses and evidence hasn’t been collected there is something wrong with you.

 

[Silver Tongue]

Micky O the same bloke that paid part of the $200000 dollar hush money with Heuskas and Burgoyne
What a joke this world has become!!

Were you there? Nope. So what do you know as actual fact about that alleged incident?

Apart from the rumours you read and innuendo that you read on BigFooty?

 

[JackOutback]

Are you factoring clarksons career record of getting the best out of the men he has had under him as well as almost obsession with community involvement and the importance of family, when assessing the validity of those allegations?

Are you factoring Clarkson’s record of coward punching, throat grabbing, abuse of umpires at junior games and win at all costs attitude? Because he’s not the Mother Theresa you’re trying to paint him as either.

News flash, notorious dickhead may be a bigger dickhead than first thought. More at 7.

 

[seysearles]

Which priority do you think was most important? Was it "getting the best out of the men he has under him"? Was his "almost obsession with community involvement"? Or was it the "importance of family"? Because, what if getting a premiership was number one and the others followed from that. Because that what we all expect and want isn't it? That's the force that drives our clubs. That's what has traditionally driven the management of successful footy clubs. Graeme Richmond back in the day would leave notes in the lockers of players telling them they had to report to other clubs. How much was the family stuff spin?

I would assume that all three would have been intertwined with one requiring some degree of sacrifice for the other. You do realise that other players on our list had families during their tenure at the club (including indigenous players)? It’s not like having babies was viewed as detrimental to the success of the squad. The family involvement drum was beaten incessantly to the point that most supporters could tell you the names of the players partners and kids. As a life long hawthorn supporter and observer of that culture for 17yrs under clarkson none of that squares with allegations of him “forcing” players to abort babies. Whatever the truth is something has got lost in translation with that allegation.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Has anyone considered the fact that the abortion story just isn’t true. I am not suggesting that, but let’s just imagine that it isn’t true.

How do you imagine Clarko or Fagan feeling right now?

As I said I’m not suggesting that, but I’m typing it because it seems like so many on here refuse to admit it is possible. If it’s not true, then I hope the two of them get the support they deserve too. Given the alleged player came to training to share the story with team mates and coaches, you’d imagine there would be some people who remember this. What if no one remembers it, what is Clarko and Fagan deny it. What happens then? The more this goes on the more I’m stunned by the commentary. Players told stories of pain and trauma and we need to hear them and we need to get far better at protecting them (all players). But we also need to know what happened to do that. It is possible it’s not true. What if a player told his partner the club said she had to abort because he wanted that. It’s possible isn’t it? Again I’m not suggesting this, but for those just hanging to chop the head of Clarko when he hasn’t had the chance to be interviewed, where witnesses and evidence hasn’t been collected there is something wrong with you.

What I wonder about with that scenario is Clarkson if he is cleared of wrong doing and allowed to coach , the man who was a legendary coach whose way with players was able to conjole the best out of them.
Elite level coaches live in rarefied air . Their word is gospel . How will Clarkson be at North next year ??

Will the wind be out of his sail, will he second guess the demands that he is putting on players? The same demands that made him so successful.

I wonder if he can come back from this event .

 

[H2F]

Some of these North supporters in this thread are a joke.

If Clarkson had gone to Essendon instead of signing with their club they'd be singing a different tune. Hypocrites.

I’d also suggest if Clarko went to Essendon you’d have plenty of Bombers fans hoping it’s not true either. Footy is a strange thing at times, this issue has shown all the worst sides of it for me. We have people slandering Hawthorn for commissioning a fantastic process that now all clubs should follow. We’ve seen complete transparency in it being escalated to the AFL to help with the disturbing findings. We’ve seen the two coaches at the centre step down to fully participate in the process.

It’s a great outcome that probably starts a completely new way of managing player welfare. Yet all the commentary is various versions of Clarko being called everything (from a grub to a psychopath) and complete dismissal of his 20 years of selfless human led impact into AFL and the community.

All without the formal investigation having even started. Why even have an investigation, let’s just sack him and Fagan now, the people have spoken and if you don’t agree with this you are a racist.

 

[WaywardSonSon]

She has to say that. They’ve just invested in the bloke to literally save their club.

Invested in a POS of a human being (even before any of these alleged events came to light). It really is a "win at all costs" mentality these clubs have, isn't it?!

 

[seysearles]

Are you factoring Clarkson’s record of coward punching, throat grabbing, abuse of umpires at junior games and win at all costs attitude? Because he’s not the Mother Theresa you’re trying to paint him as either.

News flash, notorious dickhead may be a bigger dickhead than first thought. More at 7.

Ok I’ll give you those despite the fact that the most egregious of them are now 30yrs old and happened in an environment that essentially sanctioned that sort of behaviour. I can’t take the leap from those handful of indiscretion to clarkson demanding that a young player under his charge have an abortion though.

How do explain Fagan’s alleged active involvement in this allegation also? Have you prepared your hit list for him also? You’d be hard pressed to find evidence of him swatting a fly I should think. He seems to have lapsed intermittently into a psychopath along that journey though. Split personality? Narcissistic personality disorder?

 

[Neddwellyn]

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread.
Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the report button, please and thank you.

If you feel upset or need to talk you can call either Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636 or Lifeline on 13 11 14 at any time.

- Crisis support for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders 13YARN (13 92 76) 13YARN - Call 13 92 76 | 24 /7

This is a serious topic, please treat it as such.



FAQs

Are the report and the ABC article the same thing?
No, they are two different things. The HFC report has not been made public. The ABC article was published 2 weeks after the report was handed to the HFC/AFL integrity dept.

Why was the report commissioned?
Hawthorn were acting in response to reports published in the AGE from early in 2022 that Cyril and Shannyn Rioli had issues with cultural and inappropriate behaviour. Hawthorn engaged Phil Egan to review and contact all past First Nations players in a truth telling exercise that would feed its findings back to the HFC board.

Who is Phil Egan?
Egan played 125 games for the Tigers from 1982-1989, and now manages Binmada, a consultancy for Education, Organisation and Community Development. He was also part of the Korin Gamadji Institute as NAIDOC Coordinator, supporting the partnership between the KGI, VicHealth and the Victorian NAIDOC Football and Netball Committee.

Should the Hawthorn report have been given to the accused to rebuke?
No, this was not the purpose of the report. It was simply a gathering of 'truths' from past HFC First Nations players. Once it was given to the HFC board they immediately identified that they were not equipped to handle the level of allegations in the report and directed it to the AFL integrity dept.

Was the report leaked to the ABC's Russell Jackson?
This is unknown, however the AFL have identified that Jackson's article does include allegations that are not in the Egan report.

Did the ABC's Russell Jackson give the accused parties an opportunity to respond to the allegations?
Yes, Jackson is on record as contacting all accused parties via email and phone on Monday the 19th. On Wednesday the 21st the article was published with no responses being lodged.

What happens now?
The AFL will appoint an independent panel to investigate "extremely serious" historical allegations about Hawthorn's treatment of its Indigenous players. The AFL is finalising its own process to investigate the allegations and is seeking to speak to those who shared their experiences with Hawthorn's review. AFL CEO Gillon McLachlan said an external panel of four independent, appropriately qualified people would conduct the investigation for the AFL.

Link to Hawthorn Statement. here.

Link to ABC Sports article. here.

The Age, 2011 (Clarkson acknowledgment of his racist past)

Hawthorn coach Alastair Clarkson said last night that attitudes to racism had thankfully changed dramatically. He admitted his own perspective on racial issues changed enormously only after arriving at North Melbourne as a teenager and being involved with indigenous players Phil and Jimmy Krakouer.



"I remember my attitude to it too was terrible until I was 17 years of age and got to the North

Melbourne footy club and just admired the guys as people as well as footballers in Phil and Jimmy Krakouer" Clarkson said.

 

[H2F]

What I wonder about with that scenario is Clarkson if he is cleared of wrong doing and allowed to coach , the man who was a legendary coach whose way with players was able to conjole the best out of them.
Elite level coaches live in rarefied air . Their word is gospel . How will Clarkson be at North next year ??

Will the wind be out of his sail, will he second guess the demands that he is putting on players? The same demands that made him so successful.

I wonder if he can come back from this event .

That’s what I’ve been thinking too. Clarko is such a selfless person it’s possible he will stand down from coaching regardless. He’s likely to blame himself for any and all trauma players felt there regardless of some of the details and whether or not he was wrong. He’s that kind of guy. One thing he isn’t I’ve seen this 20 years is a liar.

I believe there are only three possibilities here with respect to the abortion

1) He spoke to the player and genuinely offered him advice he thought would help him. Not an order, advice

2) He did do it and if so will admit it and resign himself

3) It’s not true.

If it’s one or two I believe he will resign. It it’s three I reckon he will struggle hard with it. He will not want to out the player and will still somehow blame himself.

He’s a lot of things but unless he’s the greatest actor of all time, he has and always will love his players more than himself.

 

[Neddwellyn]

Ok I’ll give you those despite the fact that the most egregious of them are now 30yrs old and happened in an environment that essentially sanctioned that sort of behaviour. I can’t take the leap from those handful of indiscretion to clarkson demanding that a young player under his charge have an abortion though.

How do explain Fagan’s alleged active involvement in this allegation also? Have you prepared your hit list for him also? You’d be hard pressed to find evidence of him swatting a fly I should think. He seems to have lapsed intermittently into a psychopath along that journey though. Split personality? Narcissistic personality disorder?

Have you read Fagan’s quotes regarding Dayle Garlett’s exit from Hawthorn? Sadly, his attitude comes across as very in line with the accusations being made.

 

[Mick 77]

Were you there? Nope. So what do you know as actual fact about that alleged incident?

Apart from the rumours you read and innuendo that you read on BigFooty?

What are on about the $200000 is admitted it’s all in print.
What’s big footy got to fo with it?

 

[Neddwellyn]

Feel sorry for North here.
Their supporters should be going into pre season full of hope and optimism.

Now through no fault of their own they have their own turmoil to deal with.

My view is that Clarkson and Fagan are most certainly NOT racist, that's borne out by their careers and the legions of indigenous players who have nothing but good words for them.

The key issue here is that Clarkson believed his own bullshit and started taking on young indigenous players who really weren't (for a variety of reasons) ready for a career in Melbourne at that stage in their lives.

There's no chance they'd be drafted now.

Clarkson created a situation that was almost guaranteed to end badly and he has to take responsibility for that.

But I will be stunned if he told the partner of a player to kill her baby. That's how she's framed it years later- and fair enough, that's how she will have interpreted it.

But Rusty Jackson has swum out into water waaaaaaay to deep for his earnest if stolid long form MY STORY feature writing ability and is reporting those words as fact, and a whole bunch of folks have run off to the races with it.

But all this rests on the reality that football is NOT just another industry like any other.

I mean, the entry process into said "industry" is in itself proof of that.

Clarkson admitted his racist past in The Age, 2011. Article by Michael Gleeson. He is quoted. “I remember my attitude to it too was terrible”. Look it up, and then check out the meaning of ‘certainly’. We need to open our eyes. X

 

[Bad Seed]

Has anyone considered the fact that the abortion story just isn’t true. I am not suggesting that, but let’s just imagine that it isn’t true.

How do you imagine Clarko or Fagan feeling right now?

As I said I’m not suggesting that, but I’m typing it because it seems like so many on here refuse to admit it is possible. If it’s not true, then I hope the two of them get the support they deserve too. Given the alleged player came to training to share the story with team mates and coaches, you’d imagine there would be some people who remember this. What if no one remembers it, what is Clarko and Fagan deny it. What happens then? The more this goes on the more I’m stunned by the commentary. Players told stories of pain and trauma and we need to hear them and we need to get far better at protecting them (all players). But we also need to know what happened to do that. It is possible it’s not true. What if a player told his partner the club said she had to abort because he wanted that. It’s possible isn’t it? Again I’m not suggesting this, but for those just hanging to chop the head of Clarko when he hasn’t had the chance to be interviewed, where witnesses and evidence hasn’t been collected there is something wrong with you.

Even if 10% of it is true, they shouldn't be near the sport.