NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[the harry]

He didn’t go into the specifics.

I suspect it's unlikely there can be a "happy" resolution to this matter.

Those who have gone through this ordeal may feel vindicated, but happy seems a long way off

 

[Descent]

Would they have to tell it again if this goes an actual court? Jon Ralph says that’s where it will end up if they don’t tell it to the inquiry.

Why is an AFL inquiry guaranteed to prevent that occurring? There is only one answer: the outcome of the inquiry has been predetermined. This is the definition of a kangaroo court.

 

[jj15]

Why is an AFL inquiry guaranteed to prevent that occurring? There is only one answer: the outcome of the inquiry has been predetermined. This is the definition of a kangaroo court.

Pre determined in what direction do you think?

 

[Descent]

Pre determined in what direction do you think?

The AFL's favour. To the AFL this is a PR crisis; this is about minimising the negative impact to the organization, which means sufficiently appeasing all parties such that the matter ends internally. They are trying to control the narrative, the leaks and the fallout. They do not care about the people.

 

[South of the Yarra]

You’re attempting to undermine decades of his life nurturing and guiding 100’s of young men into adulthood as well as voluntarily giving up large amounts of his free time on initiatives to help the indigenous communities in both Australia and the Tiwi islands without being paid for that luxury. What have you done besides rap away on your keyboard and cast judgment and spout vitriol? Do you never catch a glimpse of your reflection and feel embarrassed?

Luxury? Really. Clarko the Hero.

 

[sr36]

There is no way so many people believe Clarko and Fagan bullied some player because he was Indigenous to abort a child and cutoff contact with his GF, because he would be more focused on footy.

FFS at absolute worst they tried to save a kid spiraling down a bad path and went too far trying to help. Call it overstepping their duties if it makes you feel better.

As a coach I'd often strapped players ankles. So when I saw kids limping, it was only natural that I got a couple of other coaches to help aggressively persuade these kids to let me perform surgery on their knees. So I cut their knees open and started sewing some of the stuff together. I didn't know what I was doing and a few of them have never been able to walk properly since.

I may have overstepped the line a bit, but our job is a bit different, we're expected to dip in to the medical side of things. I had their best interests at heart. Nothing to see here.

And that's before you get to the racist elements of the story.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Again directly from the ABC article

how do you think they feel after the publication of the article and its fall out if reliving the trauma is the issue?

 

[Reginald Perrin]

No. Because I'm sure there were plenty of other things in his life that have contributed. Like, for example, Captain Cook, deaths in custody...stuff like that. It's not all down to Clarko. But clearly, in the case of the players who had to deal with stuff no-one should ever have to deal with...Let's put it simply. Has anyone posting in this thread ever had anyone ever, or more specifically, an employer, tell them that they had to ditch a girlfriend, wife, partner because that was causing problems at work? Can you imagine that happening? Let's say your boss comes up to you and says that you, who for the sake of argument, are Croatian, have to ditch your pregnant Croatian girlfriend because she's bad for your work performance? Let's imagine that same boss turning up at your home and pointing out that it's a bit messy and telling you that's why you have to send her back to Zagreb. Can you imagine that happening? Of course it wouldn't. It never would. But here we have multiple examples of exactly this sort of thing happening being related and people are saying that it's just a bloke with the best interests of his employees/players at heart who may have crossed a few lines but...but...but...

I'm going to put my hand up here, though it's a slight deviation as I was actually the employer. The problems being caused were with a young man's life and his relationship with his family, the way it affected his work was not insignificant but only a secondary consideration. The condition of the house was an issue because it came with the job. I was there with the blessing of the man's Mother and the young lady moved back to live with her family in the next town, not Zagreb.

I'm not posting this in defence of anyone, just addressing your question. Never say never.

 

[The_Ru]

I'm going to put my hand up here, though it's a slight deviation as I was actually the employer. The problems being caused were with a young man's life and his relationship with his family, the way it affected his work was not insignificant but only a secondary consideration. The condition of the house was an issue because it came with the job. I was there with the blessing of the man's Mother and the young lady moved back to live with her family in the next town, not Zagreb.

I'm not posting this in defence of anyone, just addressing your question. Never say never.

If the employee in question was over 18 then you probably exposed yourself to a VERY significant risk. As an employer, you have a power imbalance with an employee which must be taken into account in any intervention you make.

I don’t know your particular circumstances but as someone who supervises almost 100 staff I would NEVER put myself in that position.

 

[RJK Tiger]

If it goes to court to be settled, its near impossible to think Clarko & Fagan will coach next year. Surely it will not get a hearing and a resolution before Rnd 1 etc

 

[Reginald Perrin]

If the employee in question was over 18 then you probably exposed yourself to a VERY significant risk. As an employer, you have a power imbalance with an employee which must be taken into account in any intervention you make.

I don’t know your particular circumstances but as someone who supervises almost 100 staff I would NEVER put myself in that position.

With 100 staff the situation probably wouldn't present itself. Small workforce, remote location, set of circumstances that meant being more deeply involved in employees and their family's lives was natural and accepted if not expected.

 

[The_Ru]

With 100 staff the situation probably wouldn't present itself. Small workforce, remote location, set of circumstances that meant being more deeply involved in employees and their family's lives was natural and accepted if not expected.

100 staff or 1 staff, it only takes one verifiable workplace bullying or harassment claim to cost you a lot of money.

But this is off topic. So let’s get back to the matter at hand.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

Are we going to get any more insight on how the investigation is coming along? or will it be just blackout till its concluded.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

If it goes to court to be settled, its near impossible to think Clarko & Fagan will coach next year. Surely it will not get a hearing and a resolution before Rnd 1 etc

So what happens with trade/draft period? are they allowed to be there or not allowed to be included in any capacity?

 

[Big Crow]

Are we going to get any more insight on how the investigation is coming along? or will it be just blackout till its concluded.

Can’t help but notice the difference in reporting from the AFL media compared to “the camp”.

Adelaide’s situation had months of daily speculation, calls for massive fines, stripping draft picks etc.

Now that it’s the Hawks, there is much less coverage and speculation, and lots of terms like “due process” and “two sides to the story” being thrown around which in the previous situation were completely absent.

Do AFL House push this because it’s a big Victorian team, or are there just too many in the media who dislike the Crows?

 

[Neddwellyn]

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread.
Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the report button, please and thank you.

If you feel upset or need to talk you can call either Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636 or Lifeline on 13 11 14 at any time.

- Crisis support for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders 13YARN (13 92 76) 13YARN - Call 13 92 76 | 24 /7

This is a serious topic, please treat it as such.



FAQs

Are the report and the ABC article the same thing?
No, they are two different things. The HFC report has not been made public. The ABC article was published 2 weeks after the report was handed to the HFC/AFL integrity dept.

Why was the report commissioned?
Hawthorn were acting in response to reports published in the AGE from early in 2022 that Cyril and Shannyn Rioli had issues with cultural and inappropriate behaviour. Hawthorn engaged Phil Egan to review and contact all past First Nations players in a truth telling exercise that would feed its findings back to the HFC board.

Who is Phil Egan?
Egan played 125 games for the Tigers from 1982-1989, and now manages Binmada, a consultancy for Education, Organisation and Community Development. He was also part of the Korin Gamadji Institute as NAIDOC Coordinator, supporting the partnership between the KGI, VicHealth and the Victorian NAIDOC Football and Netball Committee.

Should the Hawthorn report have been given to the accused to rebuke?
No, this was not the purpose of the report. It was simply a gathering of 'truths' from past HFC First Nations players. Once it was given to the HFC board they immediately identified that they were not equipped to handle the level of allegations in the report and directed it to the AFL integrity dept.

Was the report leaked to the ABC's Russell Jackson?
This is unknown, however the AFL have identified that Jackson's article does include allegations that are not in the Egan report.

Did the ABC's Russell Jackson give the accused parties an opportunity to respond to the allegations?
Yes, Jackson is on record as contacting all accused parties via email and phone on Monday the 19th. On Wednesday the 21st the article was published with no responses being lodged.

What happens now?
The AFL will appoint an independent panel to investigate "extremely serious" historical allegations about Hawthorn's treatment of its Indigenous players. The AFL is finalising its own process to investigate the allegations and is seeking to speak to those who shared their experiences with Hawthorn's review. AFL CEO Gillon McLachlan said an external panel of four independent, appropriately qualified people would conduct the investigation for the AFL.

Link to Hawthorn Statement. here.

Link to ABC Sports article. here.

FAGAN comments re AMOS FRANK exit

Source: AFL.COM.AU (Oct 26, 2013)

Fagan estimated it would have been a five- or six-year project to get Amos Frank to a point where he could understand everything that was being asked of him.
"It's pretty hard, when you don't have a great command of the English language, to sit in a team meeting where everything gets spoken about quite quickly," Fagan said.

• if a young non-english speaking indigenous (or Sudanese?) man were to read these comments or have them translated, how would that young man feel about being drafted to a club with Chris Fagan as the current head coach?”

• Fagan estimating that it would take an indigenous person 5-6 years to ‘understand everything’ seems incredibly patronising and degrading to indigenous people.

• delisting Amos within 2 years due to his apparent lack of progress with english is yet another very clear and recent example of discrimination and negligence towards an indigenous player by Hawthorn. However, in this case Fagan’s complicity in discriminating against a person based on their race/heritage/mother-tongue… is nothing other than direct.

• Many of the most successful European soccer teams have players from most continents. The language barriers they presumably face don’t seem to affect their ability to ‘understand everything’. In what would surely be intricate team meetings where complex tactics are no doubt discussed, and, as Fagan so delicately put it, ‘everything gets spoken about quite quickly’.

 

[Neddwellyn]

Fagans comments sound like he is going his best not to blame the player despite what is now publically known about the players criminal activities.

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

I think you make a fair point. I’m interested to know if you feel the same regarding Fagan and Amos Frank’s exit.

Source AFL.com.au:

Fagan estimated it would have been a five- or six-year project to get Amos Frank to a point where he could understand everything that was being asked of him.

"It's pretty hard, when you don't have a great command of the English language, to sit in a team meeting where everything gets spoken about quite quickly," Fagan said.

///

I’m interested in people’s thoughts on the following:

• a young non-english speaking indigenous (or Sudanese?) man were to read these comments or have them translated, how would that young man feel about being drafted to a club with Chris Fagan as the current head coach?”

• Fagan estimating that it would take an indigenous person 5-6 years to ‘understand everything’ seems incredibly patronising and degrading to indigenous people.

• delisting Amos within 2 years due to his apparent lack of progress with english is yet another very clear and recent example of discrimination and negligence towards an indigenous player by Hawthorn. However, in this case Fagan’s complicity in discriminating against a person based on their race/heritage/mother-tongue… is nothing other than direct.

• Many of the most successful European soccer teams have players from most continents. The language barriers they presumably face don’t seem to affect their ability to ‘understand everything’. In what would surely be intricate team meetings where complex tactics are no doubt discussed, and, as Fagan so delicately put it, ‘everything gets spoken about quite quickly’.

 

[Neddwellyn]

His attitude in the past probably aligned with that of most of society, you and me as well. We’ve learned a lot in the past decade.

His attitude in the past probably aligned with that of most of society, you and me as well. We’ve learned a lot in the past decade.

How might Adam Goodes, Cyril Rioli, or Eddie Betts respond to the statement ‘we’ve learned a lot in the past decade’? I wish I was wrong when I imagine their answers. I really do. (However I respect that Clarkson’s attitude may have changed, despite the horrific allegations. My point was simply to highlight his own acknowledgment regarding his racist past).

 

[Schneebly11]

It was already stated that some of the ex-players are on suicide watch because of the trauma. The whole idea of being involved in the process of reliving it, not to mention that there may be counter-attacks on them based on what's happened to them since...that they're into drugs, that they're flaky. I can believe that they don't want any more of it. Frankly it makes me sick. And f$%king angry.

It reminds me of how Catholic priest child abuse victims had their characters denigrated in court and in the community by the church and it’s lawyers to protect the priests.

They are all drug addicts, they are all criminals, they all had abortions etc….

Yeah because after being raped as children by Father Ignatius it generally leaves you messed up for life. I can totally see how someone cut off with contact from family and their partner and also coerced into terminating their own child would mentally f**k someone up enough for them to turn to drugs to find an escape, and then crime to feed the habit.

 

[Neddwellyn]

I am not sure whether to unleash with a tirade of abuse that will get me banned, instead I will simply shake my head and walk away quietly.

South of the Yarra.. I feel you. Wow. Good on you for holding back re abuse.. but gosh I can understand you wanting to unleash. Wow.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Except, and I'm getting tired of having to repeat this, but I accept it's been a long thread, the ABC report, citing the player in question and his partner, explicitly states that he went into the club expecting everyone to be excited about the happy news that he was going to be a Dad. Then it all went to s**t. Your imaginative reconstruction of what might of happened, designed to explain Clarko recommending an abortion as a benign intervention, fits the testimony like a square peg in a non-existent hole.

“Hey everyone, I’m so excited to tell you all that my partner is pregnant and I’m going to be a Dad.”

Clarko and Fagan find out the news and next minute …..

“Hey kid, tell your partner she has to kill the baby”

I’m prepared to wait for a little more detail.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[checkraiseulite]

I think you make a fair point. I’m interested to know if you feel the same regarding Fagan and Amos Frank’s exit.

Source AFL.com.au:

Fagan estimated it would have been a five- or six-year project to get Amos Frank to a point where he could understand everything that was being asked of him.

"It's pretty hard, when you don't have a great command of the English language, to sit in a team meeting where everything gets spoken about quite quickly," Fagan said.

///

I’m interested in people’s thoughts on the following:

• a young non-english speaking indigenous (or Sudanese?) man were to read these comments or have them translated, how would that young man feel about being drafted to a club with Chris Fagan as the current head coach?”

• Fagan estimating that it would take an indigenous person 5-6 years to ‘understand everything’ seems incredibly patronising and degrading to indigenous people.

• delisting Amos within 2 years due to his apparent lack of progress with english is yet another very clear and recent example of discrimination and negligence towards an indigenous player by Hawthorn. However, in this case Fagan’s complicity in discriminating against a person based on their race/heritage/mother-tongue… is nothing other than direct.

• Many of the most successful European soccer teams have players from most continents. The language barriers they presumably face don’t seem to affect their ability to ‘understand everything’. In what would surely be intricate team meetings where complex tactics are no doubt discussed, and, as Fagan so delicately put it, ‘everything gets spoken about quite quickly’.

he wasn’t delisted due to his english skills.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Can’t help but notice the difference in reporting from the AFL media compared to “the camp”.

Adelaide’s situation had months of daily speculation, calls for massive fines, stripping draft picks etc.

Now that it’s the Hawks, there is much less coverage and speculation, and lots of terms like “due process” and “two sides to the story” being thrown around which in the previous situation were completely absent.

Do AFL House push this because it’s a big Victorian team, or are there just too many in the media who dislike the Crows?

Rightly or wrongly, I think you’ll find the key difference here is that there’s a backstory here that’s not been made public as yet which has a bunch of people around Clarkson and Fagan quite confident that there involvement was understandable.
It might resonate with a bunch of people, but might be a very hard sell to others, is my take.
But certainly seems to be the angle the AFLCA have gone with, again, right or wrongly.

 

[kingswood71]

Do you think the allegations will stand up in a court of law? If so I’m shocked at how easily it must be to prove guilt.

No one has been charged with a crime, so therefor the concept of "guilty" or "innocent" isnt relevant. Its a civil matter, so any hearing or even court case (if it went that far) would not be dealing with absolute innocence or absolute guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Rather it would consider if the allegations are more true than they are false based on the balance of probabilities. Is it "more probable or likely than not" is the standard of proof.
And what court and for what do you think it would end up in?

 

[RAPPA]

No one has been charged with a crime, so therefor the concept of "guilty" or "innocent" isnt relevant. Its a civil matter, so any hearing or even court case (if it went that far) would not be dealing with absolute innocence or absolute guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Rather it would consider if the allegations are more true than they are false based on the balance of probabilities. Is it "more probable or likely than not" is the standard of proof.
And what court and for what do you think it would end up in?

The most esteemed and respected Court of all - the Court of BF.

Empanelling jurors from the BF pool would be quite the entertaining process.