NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

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Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[gouki88]

I live in Melbourne, my wife is Asian and kids mixed race, and don't remember seeing a single racist attack this century.

If I thought this nation was half as racist as some here do, I'd probably leave for good.

I reckon if you spent late nights in the CBD you would see some. I know I have a few times.

But that is not at all the extent of racism in this nation.

 

[Rob R]

Pretty simple, did this happen? did this not happen? Either the players aren't telling the truth or Clarko/Fagan/Hawks aren't telling the truth.

Fail to see how at the end of the AFL 'process' one side or the other can't be labelled as dishonest liars.

Or it's in the middle and the club suggested he needed to.get rid of his partner for some reason that was holding him back (eg. drugs) and the other party has taken it a different way. Note. giving an example not saying that was the case

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[Forward Press]

I live in Melbourne, my wife is Asian and kids mixed race, and don't remember seeing a single racist attack this century.

If I thought this nation was half as racist as some here do, I'd probably leave for good.

Physical attacks? Nope.

Verbal? A few.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

I'm curious to know how the courts/legal system will prove these allegations.

If the allegations are proven to be false the first nation's familes will have defamation lawsuits coming from Fagan and Clarkson

 

[westie]

Physical attacks? Nope.

Verbal? A few.

Here's a subtle one my grandson who is part Asian copped recently in Canberra: "Oh, I didn't realise that you are Asian?"

 

[gouki88]

Here's a subtle one my grandson who is part Asian copped recently in Canberra: "Oh, I didn't realise that you are Asian?"

How is anyone supposed to respond to that kind of thing?

 

[the harry]

I'm curious to know how the courts/legal system will prove these allegations.

If the allegations are proven to be false the first nation's familes will have defamation lawsuits coming from Fagan and Clarkson

Going out on a limb but I don't think the families will be flush with cash. Defamation law suit would be pointless.

 

[Kram]

I live in Melbourne, my wife is Asian and kids mixed race, and don't remember seeing a single racist attack this century.

If I thought this nation was half as racist as some here do, I'd probably leave for good.

I haven't lived/been there in about 15 years but an exception I'll say over here is Kalgoorlie.

Otherwise I think it's quite rare these days, only personal incident was when my mum got her handbag thoroughly searched at a Rebel sport a few years back simply waiting at the entrance for me. IMO if she was white and not Indigenous in appearance it was very unlikely the guy would have checked like that.

 

[Gralin]

Going out on a limb but I don't think the families will be flush with cash. Defamation law suit would be pointless.

They'll go the media that reported it

 

[Festerz]

They'll go the media that reported it

Really? On what possible grounds would they (former coaching staff) have for taking legal action against the ABC/Jackson for simply reporting the allegations having taken reasonable steps to seek comment from those named?

Especially given the report (although not all of the specific allegations) stem from a report commissioned by the Hawthorn Football Club into the experiences of First Nations peoples and provided to the AFL well before the ABC report was published.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Hmmm. I am not sure. I think if this had come out I’d be personally very keen to get as much legal advice as possible. I am certainly not condoning this, but I can understand why they want to get on the front foot and defend themselves. It’s literally their entire careers on the line here. It’s public, nasty, and life changing.

This is so much more than their career. This is their reputation. Their self esteem. Their self worth as a human being. The way people will look at them and sfellow behind their backs for the rest of their lives. If all the allegations are true and happened as largely described then of course they should be punished and they deserve what’s coming their way.

But hopefully we’ve not reached a point where anonymous allegations are put out there in the media and people can be tarnished, sacked, have their reputations and lives destroyed without an ability to at least put forward a right of reply without being judged as guilty for wanting to exercise that right.

There’s a reason in a court of law there’s such a thing as ‘cross examination of a witness’. It sort of helps ensure a workable justice system that can hopefully get to the full truth, and not the ‘truth’ as portrayed by one party or the other without being tested.

It’s like the ‘pile on’ to Dustin Martin a month ago …. every media commentator, talkback caller, Gil McClachlan and ‘man on the street’ had him guilty of misogyny and sexual assault without any context or right of reply. Gee…what happened to that explosive story which was front page of Australia’s biggest selling paper? The AFL integrity unit got involved, interviewed any relevant parties, and no punishment was handed down. Gee, funny that. I’ve been waiting for the string of apologies from all those who had him guilty but surprise surprise, none have been forthcoming.

Martin’s reputation was smashed and he was pilloried in the media for days on the back of a video with no context where there seems to be no punishment forthcoming.

We’ve just got to be careful and balanced as the ‘pile on’ and assumption of guilt is always the default position of the media and social media as it sells stories! And the public love to think worst case scenario as it’s much more ‘juicy’ and exciting to talk about than the alternative.




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[Gralin]

Really? On what possible grounds would they (former coaching staff) have for taking legal action against the ABC/Jackson for simply reporting the allegations having taken reasonable steps to seek comment from those named?

Especially given the report (although not all of the specific allegations) stem from a report commissioned by the Hawthorn Football Club into the experiences of First Nations peoples and provided to the AFL well before the ABC report was published.

Telling the truth isn't a defence against defamation in Australia

 

[Festerz]

where anonymous allegations

They were not anonymous allegations.

These are 6 individuals speaking to a Hawthorn-appointed consultant and an ABC journalist first hand.

Their names have not been published. But that is not the same thing as an anonymous claim.

 

[Gralin]

Proving it's true can be though

Telling the truth isn't a defence against defamation in Australia

 

[The Prosecutor]

Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and Mark Evans were accused by a fellow Hawthorn coach of running the football department like the “Russian Mafia’’, the club’s review of its handling of Indigenous players reveals.
Two pregnant partners of players lost their unborn children during the “traumatic events’’, the explosive Hawthorn-commissioned report also noted.

The report further concluded that between 2010 and 2016, coaches Clarkson, Fagan and Jason Burt used “bullying and intimidation’’ against Indigenous players and their partners, with the incidents so serious as to “amount to human rights abuses’’.

The Herald Sun has exclusively obtained the full report titled Cultural Safety Review: Of Past and Present Indigenous Players and Staff of the Hawthorn Football Club.

Clarkson, who was appointed North Melbourne coach in August, has categorically denied any wrongdoing.

On Tuesday, Brisbane coach Fagan said: “I confirm, as I said in my earlier statement, that I deny, categorically, the allegations of wrongdoing by me in relation to First Nations players at the Hawthorn Football Club, and that I intend to defend myself.’’

It is not possible for the Herald Sun to independently verify the claims or assertions made in the report and the paper does not suggest they are completely true and accurate, only that they have been made and are being investigated by various bodies.

The report asserted that the alleged treatment at the club of First Nations players involved “bullying and intimidation tactics … to be used to isolate First Nations players from their families and communities”.

These “aggressive intimidatory actions were undertaken by the most senior of the coaching and management hierarchy’’, wrote the review’s authors, led by project manager Phil Egan.

A Hawks coach, who the Herald Sun has chosen not to name, told the reviewers: “If you dare question their methods, you were frozen out.”

“I knew this day would come,’’ the insider told the authors, according to the report.

The whistleblower coach, who is not Indigenous, “reached out’’ to the authors of the report who up to that point had only interviewed Indigenous people in order to corroborate parts of the testimonies from players and their partners.

“He went on to say Evans, Clarkson, Fagan and Burt operated the football department like The Russian Mafia,” the report said.

The review includes several pages of harrowing testimony from three partners of players and another player.

As was revealed last week, one testimony claimed Clarkson told a player he should terminate their unborn child.

The report asserts that “partners of players who have tabled the serious allegations were in the early stages of pregnancy, with two mothers losing their unborn child during these traumatic events’’.

The testimony of one partner said: “For three grown men (Clarkson, Fagan and Burt) to have walked into my house with no warning, and intimidate, trap and bully me full well knowing I’m carrying a child is just by no means acceptable.

“I was in complete agony after they left, I felt like my world had just come crashing down.

“If anything was to happen to this baby I would have no choice but to hold the Hawthorn Football Club and those three as individuals responsible and it is the last thing on earth I’d ever want to do.’’

A player told the authors: “My partner and daughter were then not allowed to fly over to Melbourne to come and see me until my daughter was four months old, as the club had told my partner and myself that they would be a distraction to my football career.

“When I was delisted, all my past trauma resurfaced, and I have been extremely unwell since. I am now deemed disabled, and I am on disability support pension, and I am also awaiting NDIS funding for a full time support worker to work with me 7 days a week.

“I have had multiple suicide attempts, multiple stays in the mental health unit at the hospital … the trauma that I deal with every day is because of the way the Club treated myself and my family.’’

Another testimony described a Clarkson visit to their home. “Alister (sic) Clarkson came over to visit us one night. I remember his comments as soon as he entered the house because I was so shocked. Clarko – “Oh (player’s name) this house is nice, you have the kids artwork up and it’s nice and clean. You should invite your teammates over for dinner and things. For all they know you’re living in a shack in the desert somewhere”.

‘’I was insulted straight away. It was clear that this Hawthorn official had a view on how Aboriginal people live and he wasn’t shy in voicing it.’’

Burt and Evans were contacted for comment, but did not respond before publication.

 

[Festerz]

Telling the truth isn't a defence against defamation in Australia

That's not the whole truth on how defamation law works in Australia though, is it?

Especially when it comes to media reporting of events in the public interest.

 

[Stocks_go_Up]

That's not the whole truth on how defamation law works in Australia though, is it?

Especially when it comes to media reporting of events in the public interest.

LOL in what world is that report in the public's interest? You think Clarko and Fagan are trolling the streets telling young women to have abortions? Common man.. As usual this is purely for clickbait and to get some headlines - if the players/wives really cared it would have been brought up back then - not now in hindsight when you can re-create your own version of events and remember things as you want instead of how they actually happened. How many of you can remember exact conversation details from 10 years ago with your bosses?

 

[Festerz]

Vladastair Clarkson

BTW, the term 'mafia', or more specifically 'mafia dons' is something that takes up a whole chapter in Michael Warner's excellent expose on the AFL ' The Boys' Club'.

There is no way the AFL will want any aspect of this saga going anywhere near a court room.

 

[The_Ru]

Vladastair Clarkson

My heart sank when I saw this. It seems exceedingly unlikely that there is an innocent explanation behind all of it.

 

[Festerz]

LOL in what world is that report in the public's interest?

That would be a world where a highly successful club in a billion dollar tax-free sporting competition (the most commercially lucrative sporting competition in Australia), that receives hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer funded support from Federal and State Government appoints an independent consultant to provide an assessment on the experiences of its first nations participants following complaints from a former revered Indigenous player.

That would be a world where the AFL has been subject to numerous complaints of ignoring racism and the mistreatment of indigenous particpants going back years and decades.

That would be a world where the AFL received a report containing explosive allegations of racist and cultural abuse, that the author (Phil Egan) described as such: “To hear and see the trauma as it was personally conveyed to me was like a nightmare,” and sat on it for 2 weeks - possibly so it wouldn't take the glory away from McLachlan and the Brownlow, Grand Final and hype about the new $4.5 Billion broadcast deal (not to mention Gil's glorious departure).

Yeah- That's in the public interest I reckon.

LOL indeed.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Why not?

If people are going to make such allegations, then have the f@&#ing balls to put your name to it.

As for the ABC, a once great respectable medium has now become a pathetic apologist.

I'm waiting to hear the whole story and the whole facts before I'm prepared to assassinate anyone's character.

Yet you seem prepared to assassinate the victims.

 

[slowedawg]

Paywalled article

Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and Mark Evans were accused by a fellow Hawthorn coach of running the football department like the “Russian Mafia’’, the club’s review of its handling of Indigenous players reveals.
Two pregnant partners of players lost their unborn children during the “traumatic events’’, the explosive Hawthorn-commissioned report also noted.

The report further concluded that between 2010 and 2016, coaches Clarkson, Fagan and Jason Burt used “bullying and intimidation’’ against Indigenous players and their partners, with the incidents so serious as to “amount to human rights abuses’’.


The Herald Sun has exclusively obtained the full report titled Cultural Safety Review: Of Past and Present Indigenous Players and Staff of the Hawthorn Football Club.

Clarkson, who was appointed North Melbourne coach in August, has categorically denied any wrongdoing.

On Tuesday, Brisbane coach Fagan said: “I confirm, as I said in my earlier statement, that I deny, categorically, the allegations of wrongdoing by me in relation to First Nations players at the Hawthorn Football Club, and that I intend to defend myself.’’


It is not possible for the Herald Sun to independently verify the claims or assertions made in the report and the paper does not suggest they are completely true and accurate, only that they have been made and are being investigated by various bodies.

The report asserted that the alleged treatment at the club of First Nations players involved “bullying and intimidation tactics … to be used to isolate First Nations players from their families and communities”.

These “aggressive intimidatory actions were undertaken by the most senior of the coaching and management hierarchy’’, wrote the review’s authors, led by project manager Phil Egan.


A Hawks coach, who the Herald Sun has chosen not to name, told the reviewers: “If you dare question their methods, you were frozen out.”

“I knew this day would come,’’ the insider told the authors, according to the report.

The whistleblower coach, who is not Indigenous, “reached out’’ to the authors of the report who up to that point had only interviewed Indigenous people in order to corroborate parts of the testimonies from players and their partners.

“He went on to say Evans, Clarkson, Fagan and Burt operated the football department like The Russian Mafia,” the report said.

The review includes several pages of harrowing testimony from three partners of players and another player.

As was revealed last week, one testimony claimed Clarkson told a player he should terminate their unborn child.

The report asserts that “partners of players who have tabled the serious allegations were in the early stages of pregnancy, with two mothers losing their unborn child during these traumatic events’’.

Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan. Picture: AFL Media
The testimony of one partner said: “For three grown men (Clarkson, Fagan and Burt) to have walked into my house with no warning, and intimidate, trap and bully me full well knowing I’m carrying a child is just by no means acceptable.

“I was in complete agony after they left, I felt like my world had just come crashing down.

“If anything was to happen to this baby I would have no choice but to hold the Hawthorn Football Club and those three as individuals responsible and it is the last thing on earth I’d ever want to do.’’

A player told the authors: “My partner and daughter were then not allowed to fly over to Melbourne to come and see me until my daughter was four months old, as the club had told my partner and myself that they would be a distraction to my football career.

“When I was delisted, all my past trauma resurfaced, and I have been extremely unwell since. I am now deemed disabled, and I am on disability support pension, and I am also awaiting NDIS funding for a full time support worker to work with me 7 days a week.

“I have had multiple suicide attempts, multiple stays in the mental health unit at the hospital … the trauma that I deal with every day is because of the way the Club treated myself and my family.’’

Another testimony described a Clarkson visit to their home. “Alister (sic) Clarkson came over to visit us one night. I remember his comments as soon as he entered the house because I was so shocked. Clarko – “Oh (player’s name) this house is nice, you have the kids artwork up and it’s nice and clean. You should invite your teammates over for dinner and things. For all they know you’re living in a shack in the desert somewhere”.

‘’I was insulted straight away. It was clear that this Hawthorn official had a view on how Aboriginal people live and he wasn’t shy in voicing it.’’

Burt issued a statement to the Herald Sun on Tuesday evening.

“I wish to categorically deny the conduct attributed to me in the media. It is difficult to comment more fully in circumstances where I have never seen the report despite my lawyer asking the Hawthorn Football Club and the AFL for a copy,” he said.

“I am aggrieved Hawthorn saw fit to commission the report but did not give me the opportunity to respond to the allegations before the report was finalised and provided to the AFL.

“In my time at Hawthorn, the welfare of all players, including first nation players, was always my primary concern. A number of the first nation players lived in my home with my wife and children.

“It is my hope that the investigation to be conducted by the AFL is both fair and transparent, and that I will be given the opportunity to both give my account and test the accounts of those who have apparently made allegations against me.”

Evans wascontacted for comment, but did not respond before publication.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Which I think goes to politics exclusive of race or anything that's going on in the AFL. These are all perfectly reasonable views to have, much as I disagree with them.

As I said, what Fagan and Clarkson are doing is akin to a SLAPP - silencing protesters. And there are plenty of people of the conservative mindset who don't disagree with silencing protesters who are impacting money, jobs, reputations etc.

At the other end of the spectrum are people who are horrified by the notion of silencing protesters and believe everyone is entitled to their voice.

It's what's going on here - some people, on a political level, believe people's reputations and ability to earn a living are most critical, others believe entitling people to what they perceive to be justice to be most critical. It's not to say I as a progressive don't believe someone's reputation is important, I just don't believe it's as important as someone's sense of justice. Nor am I saying any of you don't believe in justice, it's just not as important to you as someone's reputation and their ability to make money.

And there's no point arguing the point when our views are based on values much more important than sport, cos people aren't going to change their mind, and depending on the election anywhere from 30-50% of the population agrees with you, and that many again agree with me.

Fagan and Clarkson silencing protestors and ‘SLAPP’ … what garbage. They’ve been accused of horrific racism and human rights abuses via a media report on the ABC. Their $750k to $1m per year careers and indeed their reputations as people are literally on the line. Of course they’ve engaged friggin lawyers and the best ones that their money can buy. As if every single person on the planet in their position and with their financial security wouldn’t have done the same.

SLAPP, SCHMAPP.



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[mcnulty]

The whistleblower coach, who is not Indigenous, “reached out’’ to the authors of the report who up to that point had only interviewed Indigenous people in order to corroborate parts of the testimonies from players and their partners

So hang on. The coaches weren’t contacted because were told this was solely about the perspective of the indigenous players…and yet they’ve included the perspective of a separate non indigenous coach?

WTF?

 

[Gralin]

So hang on. The coaches weren’t contacted because were told this was solely about the perspective of the indigenous players…and yet they’ve included the perspective of a separate non indigenous coach?

WTF?

Have a sook mate.
Good to see you're focused on the real important stuff