Is Nick Daicos The Best First Year Player Of All Time?

[Honeyboy Wilson]

I for one have never said Daicos' year was the best ever by a first year player.

I'm looking for nominations as to who has clearly outperformed him. So far we have to go back to Royce Hart in 1967 for a player with a season that was clearly better.

11 contested possession to Greene v. 6 from Daicos. Wouldn't that be due to the (very) different roles they were playing?

Absolutely it's due to the different roles they were playing, with an inside/outside mid being a much more difficult role to play than a half back.

Found this article about his year:

GWS midfielder Toby Greene averages more disposals per game than any 18-year-old in the modern era

Greene the best teen in modern era

www.foxsports.com.au

I'm honestly surprised at how quickly his debut season has been forgotten, because I remember at the time how much the media were talking it up as "greatest first year by a player ever", but I guess the same thing will happen with Nick Daicos as his career goes on, because it's just something to talk about when a player is fresh and exciting in the competition.

 

[PieLebo87]

Absolutely it's due to the different roles they were playing, with an inside/outside mid being a much more difficult role to play than a half back.

Found this article about his year:

GWS midfielder Toby Greene averages more disposals per game than any 18-year-old in the modern era

Greene the best teen in modern era

www.foxsports.com.au

I'm honestly surprised at how quickly his debut season has been forgotten, because I remember at the time how much the media were talking it up as "greatest first year by a player ever", but I guess the same thing will happen with Nick Daicos as his career goes on, because it's just something to talk about when a player is fresh and exciting in the competition.

To be fair, it’s not as though Collingwood couldn’t have thrown Daicos in the guts and told him to just have a crack. It wouldn’t have done us any favours in our finals race, and it probably wouldn’t have been good for Daicos to simply go straight into the coalface.

That’s what so hard about these best ever scenarios. It’s very rarely purely the player’s skills/talents but the whole club’s situation for that particular season.

To an even greater extent, the Pies could afford to play him at HB as it must’ve been a area for Fly and the coaching group to change up, where as he may’ve just played as a HFFer. Who knows what he would’ve produced in that position.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Apologies - I referred to the graphic on the Collingwood website, they had stuffed it up. So yes, N. Daicos 7th, but still 12% of votes short of the winner. It doesn't change my point of contention.

Is 7th for total votes, 12% of votes from the winner, better than 7th in a Best and Fairest field like Melbourne, where Oliver polled 52% more votes than Bailey Fritsch, who finished 7th in the Melbourne best and fairest count?

Your comment about the field being 'fairly bunched' was barely a footnote, and it was clear you were being deceptive with your comments. I can guarantee that if the statistics worked in your favour (i.e. if the field wasn't bunched), you would have made more of a point as to how far off the winners he was in terms of actual votes.


There are many players who are 19 years old on debut as a result of the current draft process, so comparing players in their first year immediately after they are eligible to be drafted is as fair as it gets.

I guess we can go to the next level and identify December born kids (for example), and compare their second years with January born kids' first years, but then we have to consider physical maturity, etc. I don't have the data to make those comparisons, so I'm just comparing apples with apples.

You've given an example of a player who debuted in a lesser competition 55 years ago as someone whose debut season was better than that of Nick Daicos. I agree, Hart's 1967 appears to have been better based on the statistics available.

But I am struggling to find a player in recent times who has had a better first year after their earliest possible draft age than that produced by Nick Daicos in 2022, given the current drafting rules and professionalism of the competition.

Do you have anyone else in mind, ideally more recent than 55 years ago when the league was an amateur state league?

"Your comment about the field being 'fairly bunched' was barely a footnote, and it was clear you were being deceptive with your comments. I can guarantee that if the statistics worked in your favour”

I can tell from this you are reading my position way wrong. I have no intention of downgrading or upgrading any player, Daicos included. He had a brilliant debut season by any fair measure. The thread question asks is Daicos the best first year player of all time. I am trying to help answer that. We have found 2 debut seasons clearly better, forget that it wasn’t a professional competition, the players in question themselves were not professional. I know you will agree that these things have to be assessed relatively. Coleman looks to have played the best debut season of all time but was a year older than Daicos. I accept this is relevant. Hart appears to have played a far better debut season than Daicos and he was younger than the Collingwood player on debut. If you go by age and forget the debut part Watson in 1980 had a massive season, finishing 5th in the Brownlow versus Daicos 7th in the Copeland. The bunched field in the Copeland doesn’t mean as much as what you are making out in terms of elevating Daicos. The winner got 11 Brownlow votes so you can as easily say Daicos finished closer to the winner than 7th normally would because the top players were not as high performing as the top players in most clubs’ best and fairests. Had Daicos played for Melbourne for example, there is absolutely nothing to say he gets within 12% or even 40-50% of their winner, Oliver, who had a much better season than any Collingwood player. In an evenly bunched field for Collingwood, Daicos would surely need to be better than 7th overall and 9th for average votes per game to be in serious contention for best debut season of all time.

If you want players from the last 20 odd years who had a better 18-19yo debut season than Daicos - this is not the thread question by the way - then I wouldn’t be best positioned to answer as I was o/s and not following AFL closely for almost 10 years from 2001. During the 90’s and part of the 80’s I followed AFL but not closely as I was busy playing, coaching and studying and working full time, and generally trying to avoid being micro-managed by any female I was living with at the time, so being at home watching footy wasn’t an option.

What I can say with confidence is the players who start as full-time or even substantial time midfielders or key position players are in a much tougher school in their first season than Daicos was. I think Daicos was correctly managed by Collingwood but you do need to take this into account versus a lot of those other prominent players.

Daicos in 2022 averaged:

23.6 disposals(kick ins removed)
6.4 contested possessions
2.2 tackles
0.6 goals + goal assists
0.5 1%ers
4.5 score involvements
4.2 turnovers
407 metres gained(probably about 320 or less without the effect of the kick ins.)
76% disposal efficiency

Those are brilliant numbers for a first year player, exceptional. But let’s pick a few of the good mature performers in similar roles who didn’t make the AA squad of 44 this season, and compare. I will look at Docherty, Redman and Dale who I thought showed up quite well this season.

Player	Disposals excluding kick ins	Contested Possessions	Tackles	goals+goal assists	1%ers	score involvements	turnovers	metres gained(-kickins)	disposal efficiency
Redman	17	4.7	2.2	0.55	2.2	4.4	3.6	420(260)	83%
Docherty	26	6.5	3.3	0.4	2.2	5.0	5.1	508(408)	79%
Dale	21	5.0	1.1	0.6	2.4	4.2	4.1	552(330)	81.4%
Daicos	24	6.4	2.2	0.6	0.5	4.5	4.2	407(320)	76%

So we can see he is right up there with these guys, just a bit weaker for efficiency and a long way down on 1%ers, maybe slightly weaker overall than the average of the other 3. Daicos equal leads in one area, goals + goals assists, Redman leads 2 areas, Docherty 4, and Dale 2(one equal).

Across the 9 areas here, Daicos is 2nd, 2nd, =2nd, =1st, 4th, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th. 21 points on a 4 points for 1st down to 1 point for 4th basis. 22.5 points would be average, so he is just below average in this cohort. Obviously the AA selectors considered there is another level above them, being the players they picked in the squad, Saad, Rioli, Sinclair in similar roles.


---------------------------------

Paul Salmon is another I just thought of. In his second season as a 19yo, younger than Daicos was this year, after having played just 9 games in his debut season, Salmon was on fire kicking 63 goals in about 12.5 games before doing his knee. He was awarded 10 Brownlow votes. I would say that also was a better season than Daicos 2022 at a younger age.

Keith Greig 10 Brownlow votes in his first season at 19 was comparable with Daicos.

Ricciuto in the season he turned 19, his second was very strong.

Ben Hart was named AA in his debut season as a 17-18yo, and again in his second season where he was still younger than Daicos 2022.

Jack Dyer in his second season as an 18yo a full year younger than Daicos 2022, polled 12 Brownlow votes in 17 matches.

Matthew Richardson in his debut season as an 18yo over a year younger than Daicos 2022, 31.24 from 14 games. In his second year, still younger than Daicos 2022, 56.40 from 19 games.

I could keep going through the teams. And I am sure we will find a similar picture at most clubs, a couple of players either similar or better than Daicos in their debut season at 19 or younger or better in their 19yo season when still younger than Daicos 2022.

Dustin Martin 2010 averaged 20 disposals over 9 contested possessions, and got 6 Brownlow votes in a bottom team. That season is probably not too dissimilar to what Daicos has just produced on balance and wasn’t even considered especially good.

Rod Ashman in his 19yo season averaged over 20 disposals and scored 29.38 in 22 matches.

Lance Whitnall in his second season as an 18yo averaged 16 disposals and over 2 goals per game, getting 8 Brownlow votes as a key forward.

Kevin Murray had 9 & 12 Brownlow vote seasons from 15 & 16 games before reaching the age of Daicos 2022. Garry Wilson, Paul Roos are probably other Fitzroy players to have seasons as good as Daicos 2022 at 19yo or younger. Hayden Bunton won the Brownlow with 26 votes from 18 games in his debut season where he was 19yo at the start of the season. Gary Pert 1984 very strong 3rd season younger than Daicos. Marc Murphy’s dad John Murphy 8 Brownlow votes from 18 games in his first season as a 17yo almost 2 years younger than Daicos, averaging 21 disposals.

Bill Goggin from Geelong had a strong 19yo season with 11 Brownlow votes from 15 matches. Doug Wade kicked 51 goals on debut as a 19yo before big scoring came into vogue later in his career.

So I have just looked through a few clubs there. I am pulling out some very historically high quality players, but it really isn’t hard to find players who had done better than Daicos by the same age, and there are several better debut seasons in there.

I watched Daicos pretty closely in the finals and I was super impressed with him. I am sure there are players who had at least roughly comparable debut seasons who were younger than Daicos just in the last 13 years since I have been following AFL more closely. Martin and Walsh spring to mind readily. Bailey Smith in his 19yo season was around he mark as well. Rowell we have mentioned, probably unsurpassed in reality. Plenty of other players you wouldn’t think of like Jayden Stephenson, Jack Higgins, Jack Ross, Andrew McGrath, Jacob Weitering, Clayton Oliver to name a few probably hit the ground running quite well at a level below, but not too far behind Daicos 2022 in reality.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

John Coleman kicked 100 goals and won a flag as a 19 year old

Royce Hart kicked 55 goals at CHF in an era where goalkicking wasn't as prolific for CHF's. Also won the premiership

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Mine was accurate for the H&A season. Your total must include the 3 finals games.

In saying that, do we ever take away kick ins from other players stats? Not sure why we’re doing it for Daicos. Taking a kick in, and playing on is a part of the game. If it wasn’t meant to be a stat, it wouldn’t be classified as a disposal.

People can call it cheap if they like though, it’s still part of his possession tally.

I did count finals.

I agree fully players are asked to take kick ins because they use the ball so well and make good decisions, but they were never counted historically until the last couple of seasons, and it is basically a team nominated disposal. I think it gives a better comparison to remove kick ins from a player’s disposal count. Also worth noting kick ins where you don’t leave the square are not counted and kick ins where you do are counted, which is a bit silly, but another reason to remove them.

It is not so much a case of calling kick ins cheap possessions, they are part of the game, and being good at them is really useful, but they are the only part of the game where a team nominates a player to take the possession, rather than the player gaining possession organically as part of the play.

 

[PieLebo87]

I did count finals.

I agree fully players are asked to take kick ins because they use the ball so well and make good decisions, but they were never counted historically until the last couple of seasons, and it is basically a team nominated disposal. I think it gives a better comparison to remove kick ins from a player’s disposal count. Also worth noting kick ins where you don’t leave the square are not counted and kick ins where you do are counted, which is a bit silly, but another reason to remove them.

It is not so much a case of calling kick ins cheap possessions, they are part of the game, and being good at them is really useful, but they are the only part of the game where a team nominates a player to take the possession, rather than the player gaining possession organically as part of the play.

I look forward to you reconstructing the Coleman to eliminate the goals kicked from free kicks as these aren’t organically kicked by the player, but simply given as a freebie to the player by an umpire’s interpretation of the rules.

Ps: I’m just joking, but I wouldn’t be surprised if you actually pulled something like that off

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I look forward to you reconstructing the Coleman to eliminate the goals kicked from free kicks as these aren’t organically kicked by the player, but simply given as a freebie to the player by an umpire’s interpretation of the rules.

Ps: I’m just joking, but I wouldn’t be surprised if you actually pulled something like that off

I am a punter. I am accustomed to adjusting results to try to get a clear picture.

Sometimes it works out right, sometimes it doesn’t.

 

[PieLebo87]

I am a punter. I am accustomed to adjusting results to try to get a clear picture.

Sometimes it works out right, sometimes it doesn’t.

I need an invite to the exclusive Meteoric Rise punter’s tipping advice/guide club!

 

[HairyO]

I for one have never said Daicos' year was the best ever by a first year player.

I'm looking for nominations as to who has clearly outperformed him. So far we have to go back to Royce Hart in 1967 for a player with a season that was clearly better.

11 contested possession to Greene v. 6 from Daicos. Wouldn't that be due to the (very) different roles they were playing?

OMeara in 2013.

And yes, playing off half back is very different to playing midfield.

Midfield in a poor team is a very hard role.

 

[Fadge]

OMeara in 2013.

Compelling.

 

[nickcat0]

Mine was accurate for the H&A season. Your total must include the 3 finals games.

In saying that, do we ever take away kick ins from other players stats? Not sure why we’re doing it for Daicos. Taking a kick in, and playing on is a part of the game. If it wasn’t meant to be a stat, it wouldn’t be classified as a disposal.

People can call it cheap if they like though, it’s still part of his possession tally.

Because one of the things that media experts used to imply that Daicos was having a great season, was to quote his disposal stats compared with previous First Year players. But often, those players weren't taking kick-ins, so were at a disadvantage when this comparison was made.

For example, an earlier poster in this thread compared the stats of Daicos and Walsh, and one of the stats was disposals where Daicos had 17 more during the H&A season. However, if 40+ of them were kick ins, then you can see that it puts him at an advantage.

 

[nickcat0]

gouki88 VinnieB loki04

Copeland Trophy
1. Jack Crisp 291 votes
2. Scott Pendlebury 276 votes
3. Darcy Moore 269 votes
4. Jeremy Howe 266 votes
5. Steele Sidebottom 265 votes
6. Patrick Lipinski 259 votes
7. Nick Daicos 258 votes
8. Josh Daicos 249 votes
8. Brayden Maynard 249 votes
10. Jordan De Goey 231 votes

For a bloke who was pumped up by some in the media as the "best first year player of all time", it's somewhat of a surprise to see that Nick Daicos could only finish 7th in Collingwood's B&F award (behind Howe, Sidebottom and Lipinski). It wasn't like he missed games which is normally an excuse for players finishing down the list in their club's best and fairest. Daicos played every game!


Care to share your thoughts on why he didn't poll better???


From memory, Cyril Rioli finished 6th in Hawthorn's 2008 B&F... The '08 Hawks were a better team than Collingwood. Finished 2nd on the ladder with 17 wins and beat the unbeatable Cats in the Grand Final.

We've seen other 1st year players finish in the top 3 or 4 of their club's B&F


Nick Daicos is obviously gonna be a star. But the pro-Magpies hype and pro-Daicos hype was laid on pretty thick this year by the media.

B&F voting isn't a sign of how players compared to each other in terms of performance. Coaches often give votes to an average player, who performed his role well, and did what the Coaches asked of him, even if that was a limited role. A superstar can rack up 40 possessions, kick 6 goals, and receive less votes than a lesser player who performed his role diligently.

 

[PieLebo87]

Because one of the things that media experts used to imply that Daicos was having a great season, was to quote his disposal stats compared with previous First Year players. But often, those players weren't taking kick-ins, so were at a disadvantage when this comparison was made.

For example, an earlier poster in this thread compared the stats of Daicos and Walsh, and one of the stats was disposals where Daicos had 17 more during the H&A season. However, if 40+ of them were kick ins, then you can see that it puts him at an advantage.

I find it an extremely weak argument against Nick Daicos. It’s almost like it’s the only ‘negative’ people can find about him as a player in his first season and have latched onto it. I’ve never seen people talk about players taking kick outs when discussion/making comparisons about possessions averages/totals before. Literally the first time I’ve heard this get discussed. It’s not even a valid argument because it’s an actual stat lol people should call him a weak possession getter instead of subtracting it to prove a comparison

 

[HairyO]

I find it an extremely weak argument against Nick Daicos. It’s almost like it’s the only ‘negative’ people can find about him as a player in his first season and have latched onto it. I’ve never seen people talk about players taking kick outs when discussion/making comparisons about possessions averages/totals before. Literally the first time I’ve heard this get discussed. It’s not even a valid argument because it’s an actual stat lol people should call him a weak possession getter instead of subtracting it to prove a comparison

Actually it happens a lot. Fox Footy highlight it because some players massively stat pad by taking all the kickins and always playing on.

 

[PieLebo87]

Actually it happens a lot. Fox Footy highlight it because some players massively stat pad by taking all the kickins and always playing on.

Example? When was it discussed last?

 

[lordbob]

I find it an extremely weak argument against Nick Daicos. It’s almost like it’s the only ‘negative’ people can find about him as a player in his first season and have latched onto it. I’ve never seen people talk about players taking kick outs when discussion/making comparisons about possessions averages/totals before. Literally the first time I’ve heard this get discussed. It’s not even a valid argument because it’s an actual stat lol people should call him a weak possession getter instead of subtracting it to prove a comparison

Kick ins werent counted as possessions until relatively recently. So if you want to compare NDs disposals to others in the past then its only fair to remove them. Further, people use the disposals stat to reflect how much a player was able to get involved in a game and their impact. Clearly its not the be all and end all of stats (see tom mitchell) but kickins are deceptive in this regard as they arent a reflection of a players ability to get involved at all as the player who kicks in has nothing to do with "winning" that disposal but it is rather just handed to him.

If a player took all the kick ins during the 2008 GF for hawthorn he would have had 23 disposals in the current stats count. If he had ONLY 23 disposals for that game woudl you say he had a good game? it would mean he didnt have a single disposal outside of kickins yet he would have had equal 7th number of disposals in the hawks side that game.

So as stated by other posters, a good kick in taker is worth his weight in gold, but its a "gimme" disposal rather than something earned through the players own involvement in the game. Further a kickin disposal will also skew the disposal efficiency stat as its easier to hit a target when there is no pressure on you, and if no spares are there then kicking to a contest is still an effective disposal.

On ND specifically, even when you remove the kick in disposals he still had a fantastic first year. No one is saying he didnt. Is it so outrageous that people adjust his stats to compare apples with apples of past years?

 

[HairyO]

Example? When was it discussed last?

I dont know when. But here is something. May LOVES the play on kick in.

Kick-In Breakdown - DFS Australia

ADE BRL CAR COL ESS FRE GCS GEE GWS HAW MEL NTH PTA RIC STK SYD WBD WCE 2021 2022 2023 2024 AFL Kick In data is available from the 2021 season onwards. PO% refers to the percentage of time each player plays on from the square when kicking in. Each round is denoted as… Read More »Kick-In Breakdown

dfsaustralia.com

 

[PieLebo87]

Kick ins werent counted as possessions until relatively recently. So if you want to compare NDs disposals to others in the past then its only fair to remove them.

As far as I remember, playing on from a kick in has always been a disposal. Do you have any supporting evidence to back up that claim? I know play on from kick ins have always been a disposal.

Further, people use the disposals stat to reflect how much a player was able to get involved in a game and their impact. Clearly its not the be all and end all of stats (see tom mitchell) but kickins are deceptive in this regard as they arent a reflection of a players ability to get involved at all as the player who kicks in has nothing to do with "winning" that disposal but it is rather just handed to him.

So what you’re saying is kick ins don’t have an impact on the game? Did you watch the Collingwood v Essendon game and let us know where the scoring launch started for Elliott’s after the siren goal?

Do you also subtract an outside player’s disposals when they have a high handball receive stat? They haven’t ‘earnt it’ either by your logic.

If a player took all the kick ins during the 2008 GF for hawthorn he would have had 23 disposals in the current stats count. If he had ONLY 23 disposals for that game woudl you say he had a good game? it would mean he didnt have a single disposal outside of kickins yet he would have had equal 7th number of disposals in the hawks side that game.

Okay? Nick Daicos had had almost 650 disposals in 2022. He had a touch over 50 disposals from kick outs. We’re talking 8% of his disposals. Not even 1 in every 10 disposals. Pretty extreme to be comparing it to the 23 behinds in the 2008 GF. It’s not like Daicos is reliant on kick outs to get involved in games or earn disposals lol

So as stated by other posters, a good kick in taker is worth his weight in gold, but its a "gimme" disposal rather than something earned through the players own involvement in the game. Further a kickin disposal will also skew the disposal efficiency stat as its easier to hit a target when there is no pressure on you, and if no spares are there then kicking to a contest is still an effective disposal.

Now we’re bashing the kid’s DE% you realise if he’s playing on to earn the disposal, he’s inviting pressure to come at him, yeah?

On ND specifically, even when you remove the kick in disposals he still had a fantastic first year. No one is saying he didnt. Is it so outrageous that people adjust his stats to compare apples with apples of past years?

Yeah, it’s pretty weak. You guys can’t seem to find a weakness in his game, so you’re actually using the number of kick ins he played on from (8% of his 644 disposals) as some weird way to shoot the kid down. It’s kinda pathetic tbh.

 

[PieLebo87]

I dont know when. But here is something. May LOVES the play on kick in.

Kick-In Breakdown - DFS Australia

ADE BRL CAR COL ESS FRE GCS GEE GWS HAW MEL NTH PTA RIC STK SYD WBD WCE 2021 2022 2023 2024 AFL Kick In data is available from the 2021 season onwards. PO% refers to the percentage of time each player plays on from the square when kicking in. Each round is denoted as… Read More »Kick-In Breakdown

dfsaustralia.com

Meteoric Rise shared that earlier, I had a look - Daicos wouldn’t even make the top 20 this year for players who’ve played on from kick outs, so hardly worthy of it being mentioned.

But you mentioned it’s spoken about on Fox, but you can’t recall when?

Only seems to be mentioned on here by people who can’t seem to find a weakness in the kid’s game.

 

[HairyO]

Meteoric Rise shared that earlier, I had a look - Daicos wouldn’t even make the top 20 this year for players who’ve played on from kick outs, so hardly worthy of it being mentioned.

But you mentioned it’s spoken about on Fox, but you can’t recall when?

Only seems to be mentioned on here by people who can’t seem to find a weakness in the kid’s game.

200 games, 60 eps of 360, 20 eps of Couch, etc.

Yes, I dont recall exactly when it was talked about.

Im not saying its a weakness. He was similar to many. I was merely pointing out the play ons get talked about.

May had twice as many. Last year I think it was Ziebel.

 

[PieLebo87]

200 games, 60 eps of 360, 20 eps of Couch, etc.

Yes, I dont recall exactly when it was talked about.

Im not saying its a weakness. He was similar to many. I was merely pointing out the play ons get talked about.

May had twice as many. Last year I think it was Ziebel.

4 of this year’s back 6 AAs had more play ons from kick ins than Daicos. It shows how pointless of a talking point it is.

 

[HairyO]

4 of this year’s back 6 AAs had more play ons from kick ins than Daicos. It shows how pointless of a talking point it is.

For Daicos I agree. May had 1/3 of his stats kick in plays on.

 

[PieLebo87]

For Daicos I agree. May had 1/3 of his stats kick in plays on.

The most intriguing thing from that link was Sydney’s numbers. Seemed like the tactic from pre-season was that only Blakey and Lloyd were to take the kick outs and always play on. Probably the only team that had such a skewed % towards just two players compared to every other team in the competition.

 

[lordbob]

As far as I remember, playing on from a kick in has always been a disposal. Do you have any supporting evidence to back up that claim? I know play on from kick ins have always been a disposal.



So what you’re saying is kick ins don’t have an impact on the game? Did you watch the Collingwood v Essendon game and let us know where the scoring launch started for Elliott’s after the siren goal?

Do you also subtract an outside player’s disposals when they have a high handball receive stat? They haven’t ‘earnt or’ either by your logic.



Okay? Nick Daicos had had almost 650 disposals in 2022. He had a touch over 50 disposals from kick outs. We’re talking 8% of his disposals. Not even 1 in every 10 disposals. Pretty extreme to be comparing it to the 23 behinds in the 2008 GF. It’s not like Daicos is reliant on kick outs to get involved in games or earn disposals lol



Now we’re bashing the kid’s DE% you realise if he’s playing on to earn the disposal, he’s inviting pressure to come at him, yeah?



Yeah, it’s pretty weak. You guys can’t seem to find a weakness in his game, so you’re actually using the number of kick ins he played on from (8% of his 644 disposals) as some weird way to shoot the kid down. It’s kinda pathetic tbh.

1) To get a disposal from a kick in you had to first kick it to yourself and then kick it again. You couldnt just run out of the box and play on like now. So the first kick from a kick in was not a disposal, your 2nd kick was. It was also done a lot less because the defender was closer and could run towards you as soon as you did that first kick so you had less time for the 2nd actual disposal. Now you can just run out of the box and kick and its is what players do in the vast majority of kick ins.

2) I clearly say that a kick in doesnt reflect the players ability to get involved in a game. Good kick ins are worth their weight in gold. Someone who takes fantastic kick ins can have a big impact in the game but its not through their own efforts rather the team gifts them their disposals or the opposition's misses gift them their disposals.

3) An outside player earns his disposals by running to the right spots. So no, they are nothing like kick ins.

4) The hawthorn example was to show an extreme possibility not specifically about nick daicos.

5) Im not bashing ND at all actually. If you read the last part of my post you'll see i said he had a fantastic year and that the whole point of removing disposals from kick ins is to equivalently compare his stats to past players.

6) Playing on from a kick in isnt to invite pressure. The defender starts 25m away and you have an eternity in the goalsquare to choose where you want to kick it. That is naturally going to result in a higher disposal efficiency than most kicks around the ground where the opposition is usually closer and you have less time to spot a target.

7) The kid has plenty of weaknesses in his game but he also has some massive weapons. The biggest of which is his running ability and quick decision making.

8) This is a thread about whether NDs first year was the GOAT, so you should expect that even though he had a fantastic first year, and ill say it again in case you didnt read it: ND has a fantastic first year, when comparing stats to past players his need to be adjusted for changes to the rules re: kick ins. See point 1) if you have forgotten what that was. If this thread was title "Did nick daicos have a great first year?" then we wouldnt need to mention these things as he clearly did and comparing stats with past players' first years would be irrelevant.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

4 of this year’s back 6 AAs had more play ons from kick ins than Daicos. It shows how pointless of a talking point it is.

It is not pointless at all. Removing kick ins that are counted as disposals from all players gives us all a better understanding of the amount of traditional disposals players are recording.

Why would you want people not to seek to understand the actual picture?