Universal Love Q&A - Lachie Neale('s manager)
- Thread starter Arcassius
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If Tim's still answering questions, I've got one aimed at him more than on Lachie:
When it comes to actually negotiating contracts, most people outside of the pro-AFL scene have very little idea on how it unfolds. In particular is the nuts and bolts of negotiating a contract left entirely to you (the manager) or do the players themselves have a lot of say, or does it vary a lot - some players wanting to have a lot of say, others happy to leave it completely with the manager, or something in between; say the players lay down some non-negotiabls and you take it from there? No details of course, just general speaking and I understand that you need to be discrete in answering.
When it comes to actually negotiating contracts, most people outside of the pro-AFL scene have very little idea on how it unfolds. In particular is the nuts and bolts of negotiating a contract left entirely to you (the manager) or do the players themselves have a lot of say, or does it vary a lot - some players wanting to have a lot of say, others happy to leave it completely with the manager, or something in between; say the players lay down some non-negotiabls and you take it from there? No details of course, just general speaking and I understand that you need to be discrete in answering.
Lost_Deputy
Premiership Player
As others have said, thanks so much Tim & Arcassius for putting this together.
If Tim doesn't mind a late one I'd like to get his thoughts on Freo as a destination club for young players as opposed to other big/successful clubs.
Besides homesickness how much of a factor does culture, gamestyle, training facilities and travel requirements factor into decision making?
Are Freo now as attractive as other clubs or are we still a bit on the nose?
Again thanks heaps for this. Really appreciated.
If Tim doesn't mind a late one I'd like to get his thoughts on Freo as a destination club for young players as opposed to other big/successful clubs.
Besides homesickness how much of a factor does culture, gamestyle, training facilities and travel requirements factor into decision making?
Are Freo now as attractive as other clubs or are we still a bit on the nose?
Again thanks heaps for this. Really appreciated.
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Literally the best question for a player manager
Tonga Bob
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So I met Tim Lawrence recently, who is Lachie Neale's manager (also Nakia Cockatoo, Cory Gregson amongst others) and he offered the opportunity to get a Q&A thread going about Lachie.
Obviously he's worked closely with Lachie over the years, and has overseen his development from a young age.
This is a rare opportunity to be able to ask someone who has been around for Lachie's development questions about him as a player and a person. Obviously questions that are related to gameplan & strategy he isn't privy to, and some parts of Lachie's personal life are out of bounds – but outside of that, what would you like to know about Lachie the man and the player
I should also note, Tim in his own right has had a fascinating career, and if you have any questions for him post them up!
Thanks Arcassius and Tim for doing this. Great reading all round.
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #60
From Tim -
And thankyou heaps for doing this!
Firstly, thanks Mezz, I am enjoying it. You probably should thank Arcassius as he is the one tidying up me emails and making them presentable.
It is vital, from the word go, a player agent helps their client prepare for life after football. As we all know from the post that talked about Alex Forster, it can come to a screaming halt very quickly.
Lachie does attend uni. He is studying economics currently after dabbling in subjects leading towards sports science last year. He is still nutting out what he may do post football but at the moment he is thinking something in business. We have talked about him coming to join me when he retires but let’s face it, hopefully that is many years away!
Quite often the lads who get drafted in the same year seem to stick together a bit. He also lived with Chris Mayne and Hayden Crozier also so they are good mates
I am always pretty keen for the boys to develop a life away from football – I think it creates good life balance and helps with performance. They also spend nearly every day of the week together so having a break from each other, I think, is healthy.
- Does Lachie go to uni and if so, what is he studying? And if not, what does he fill his time with?
- What plans, if any, does he have for life post-footy?
- And who does he hang around with most from the club?
And thankyou heaps for doing this!
Firstly, thanks Mezz, I am enjoying it. You probably should thank Arcassius as he is the one tidying up me emails and making them presentable.
It is vital, from the word go, a player agent helps their client prepare for life after football. As we all know from the post that talked about Alex Forster, it can come to a screaming halt very quickly.
Lachie does attend uni. He is studying economics currently after dabbling in subjects leading towards sports science last year. He is still nutting out what he may do post football but at the moment he is thinking something in business. We have talked about him coming to join me when he retires but let’s face it, hopefully that is many years away!
Quite often the lads who get drafted in the same year seem to stick together a bit. He also lived with Chris Mayne and Hayden Crozier also so they are good mates
I am always pretty keen for the boys to develop a life away from football – I think it creates good life balance and helps with performance. They also spend nearly every day of the week together so having a break from each other, I think, is healthy.
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Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #61
From Tim -
He has a man crush on Marcus Bontempelli at the moment, GRANDSTAND. He is also a big fan of Luke Parker.
Nowadays golf and the odd surf are his other sports. He used to play cricket and basketball also but obviously they aren't around anymore (he may fill in for the odd game when he goes home to Kybybolite in the off season). He also has a hit of squash with his granddad when he is home also. Apparently the old fella gives Lach a fair run around also!
I was actually staying with Lach in Perth that weekend. I don’t think anyone knows what happened there – all I know is he was a filthy lad when I picked him up from the airport at 1am the next morning. We sat up for a couple of hours when he got home talking about it. They had their bye the next weekend and we went down to Margaret River for a couple of days to get away and so he could relax a bit and get out of Fremantle. He needed to freshen up a bit heading towards the finals and maybe the other boys were feeling a bit the same. Again, I am only speculating.
- Who is the AFL player past or present (outside the current Dockers side) that Lachie most admires and why?
- What other sports does Lachie play?
- And what the hell happened against St Kilda last year?
He has a man crush on Marcus Bontempelli at the moment, GRANDSTAND. He is also a big fan of Luke Parker.
Nowadays golf and the odd surf are his other sports. He used to play cricket and basketball also but obviously they aren't around anymore (he may fill in for the odd game when he goes home to Kybybolite in the off season). He also has a hit of squash with his granddad when he is home also. Apparently the old fella gives Lach a fair run around also!
I was actually staying with Lach in Perth that weekend. I don’t think anyone knows what happened there – all I know is he was a filthy lad when I picked him up from the airport at 1am the next morning. We sat up for a couple of hours when he got home talking about it. They had their bye the next weekend and we went down to Margaret River for a couple of days to get away and so he could relax a bit and get out of Fremantle. He needed to freshen up a bit heading towards the finals and maybe the other boys were feeling a bit the same. Again, I am only speculating.
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #62
From Tim -
Good morning beetz (and everyone else) and I’m more than happy to give you some insight into this.
Agents seem to come from all walks of life. Lawyers, Accountants, Marketing, ex-players… there isn't a specific background or requirement but obviously these are all handy skill sets to have. I actually get asked this question by uni students all the time.
It is imperative that an agent is accredited with the AFL Players Association, who are the governing body for the agents. Only the players parent/legal guardian or an accredited agent can sign off on any contracts (with the club and the player) – this includes the negotiating of the contract with the club also so whilst you can actually represent a player without being accredited, it is a pointless exercise as you can’t fulfill one of the most important obligations of the role.
There is a window each year to apply for accreditation with the AFLPA. The first step means filling out an application of sorts, which asks a lot of questions about your background and experiences to make sure you’re suitable to be an agent. If you pass that stage you then need to sit a 3 hour exam which looks at the Collective Bargaining Agreement, Additional Services Agreement, the drug codes, Agents Code of Conduct (yes, we have one too), Standard Playing Contracts, Standard representation agreements and the list goes on….it’s heavy going. I didn’t study that hard in Year 12! If you get a pass mark of 75%+ you get your accreditation.
I don't know how many people apply each year but I think generally, 50% pass the application stage and then the pass rate from those left at the exam is 50% - so about 25% of those who initially apply get through.
This is just my advice but I wouldn’t recommend trying to do it by yourself. The big groups have the market share of the players (so have relationships with the clubs, understand a players value etc) plus when it comes to recruiting new talent, the little guy who doesn’t have any clients, has no real experience or back up is doomed. It’s a bit like Woolies or Coles – the big get bigger and the little guys get eaten up.
From a commercial point of view there isn’t generally any form of income until a year or two after they are drafted, so you may spend 1,2, 3 years investing into a kid and if they only last 2 years, you’re going to have suffered a significant financial loss. What if you sign a kid and he doesn’t get drafted? What if you sign a kid who has massive talent but is a problem off field? A lot of things to think about so you need to have some good football understanding of the system and how it works…. Something a lot of agents severely lack I think.
In regards to recruiting, the obvious thing is you need to understand the game and what makes a player draftable. It is a complex yet inexact science. So having a background in a talent pathway system, having coached at a good level, those kind of things are handy to have. My background, when I was recruiting, was obviously in both of these and I was fortunate to have worked with some pretty handy kids – I think I coached around 15 kids who have ended up in the AFL system (9 of them were in that one year at Glenelg!) and yes, before you ask, after a bottle of red I take 100% claim for their success ha ha. Whilst that’s not true, I have been lucky enough to see what the good kids have and used these observations and experience. I hope you can see what I am trying to get at.
My advice – get the experience, network and contact the clubs to see if they need anyone. Sure, the money is nothing more than beer money and your partner may leave you because you never home on weekends throughout the football season but then again, that could be very appealing to some?
- Although I am quite comfortable in m current profession I have always wondered, how does one become a player agent/manager? Are there specific course, certifications that are required? And then how do you get in to the game?
- Also, becoming a player scout, something I think i could see myself doing later in life. I understand there's not a lot of money in it but I would thoroughly enjoy the challenge. Any advice?
Good morning beetz (and everyone else) and I’m more than happy to give you some insight into this.
Agents seem to come from all walks of life. Lawyers, Accountants, Marketing, ex-players… there isn't a specific background or requirement but obviously these are all handy skill sets to have. I actually get asked this question by uni students all the time.
It is imperative that an agent is accredited with the AFL Players Association, who are the governing body for the agents. Only the players parent/legal guardian or an accredited agent can sign off on any contracts (with the club and the player) – this includes the negotiating of the contract with the club also so whilst you can actually represent a player without being accredited, it is a pointless exercise as you can’t fulfill one of the most important obligations of the role.
There is a window each year to apply for accreditation with the AFLPA. The first step means filling out an application of sorts, which asks a lot of questions about your background and experiences to make sure you’re suitable to be an agent. If you pass that stage you then need to sit a 3 hour exam which looks at the Collective Bargaining Agreement, Additional Services Agreement, the drug codes, Agents Code of Conduct (yes, we have one too), Standard Playing Contracts, Standard representation agreements and the list goes on….it’s heavy going. I didn’t study that hard in Year 12! If you get a pass mark of 75%+ you get your accreditation.
I don't know how many people apply each year but I think generally, 50% pass the application stage and then the pass rate from those left at the exam is 50% - so about 25% of those who initially apply get through.
This is just my advice but I wouldn’t recommend trying to do it by yourself. The big groups have the market share of the players (so have relationships with the clubs, understand a players value etc) plus when it comes to recruiting new talent, the little guy who doesn’t have any clients, has no real experience or back up is doomed. It’s a bit like Woolies or Coles – the big get bigger and the little guys get eaten up.
From a commercial point of view there isn’t generally any form of income until a year or two after they are drafted, so you may spend 1,2, 3 years investing into a kid and if they only last 2 years, you’re going to have suffered a significant financial loss. What if you sign a kid and he doesn’t get drafted? What if you sign a kid who has massive talent but is a problem off field? A lot of things to think about so you need to have some good football understanding of the system and how it works…. Something a lot of agents severely lack I think.
In regards to recruiting, the obvious thing is you need to understand the game and what makes a player draftable. It is a complex yet inexact science. So having a background in a talent pathway system, having coached at a good level, those kind of things are handy to have. My background, when I was recruiting, was obviously in both of these and I was fortunate to have worked with some pretty handy kids – I think I coached around 15 kids who have ended up in the AFL system (9 of them were in that one year at Glenelg!) and yes, before you ask, after a bottle of red I take 100% claim for their success ha ha. Whilst that’s not true, I have been lucky enough to see what the good kids have and used these observations and experience. I hope you can see what I am trying to get at.
My advice – get the experience, network and contact the clubs to see if they need anyone. Sure, the money is nothing more than beer money and your partner may leave you because you never home on weekends throughout the football season but then again, that could be very appealing to some?
Last edited:
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #63
From Tim -
My pleasure, Scatter – thanks for taking the time to ask a question!
Funnily enough I don’t know the exact answer to this, however, the boys are very well educated on what they should or shouldn't say. This generally comes from the media manager at the club.
Now, I know the conspiracy theorists out there may say that it's a way for the club to 'control' what information comes out of the club. Well guess what? It is. But for good cause I think.
Making sure the club's branding is intact is so important these days. You need to be respectful to the opposition. You need to be respectful to the fans. To the AFL. To the club. The groups with a religious background, mixed sexual orientation it goes on and on and on. It doesn't take much, in the heat of the moment to let the tongue slip for 2 seconds which could cause days of issues for the club. No one wants that.
From my point of view, I would hate it if one of my boys was in front of a tv camera and accidentally, innocently, said something he shouldn't have. I know how embarrassed he would be and he would feel he had let the club down. I don’t want that.
So, I have no issue with it. Give the boys the education and when the experienced people, such as the media manager, thinks they are ready start drip feeding them into the system. Some boys are good at it from the word go, some develop into it and some are never that great at it and that's fine.
I know when my boys are ready to get into the public spotlight but I am more than comfortable to let the club make the decision when the time is right and let’s face it, when a player is going well the fans want to hear from them and the club knows that.
As far as clichés go I think they just pick up on what they hear. I am waiting for Lach to mention 'blue collar' in a sentence. Or that he is an 'anywhere, anytime' kind of guy…. But that's so 2013 isn’t it??
- My question is how much media training do the players get? I'm constantly amazed at how well they generally handle it. Lachie seems pretty naturally gifted at it. Do they get given a cliche thesaurus or something to help?
My pleasure, Scatter – thanks for taking the time to ask a question!
Funnily enough I don’t know the exact answer to this, however, the boys are very well educated on what they should or shouldn't say. This generally comes from the media manager at the club.
Now, I know the conspiracy theorists out there may say that it's a way for the club to 'control' what information comes out of the club. Well guess what? It is. But for good cause I think.
Making sure the club's branding is intact is so important these days. You need to be respectful to the opposition. You need to be respectful to the fans. To the AFL. To the club. The groups with a religious background, mixed sexual orientation it goes on and on and on. It doesn't take much, in the heat of the moment to let the tongue slip for 2 seconds which could cause days of issues for the club. No one wants that.
From my point of view, I would hate it if one of my boys was in front of a tv camera and accidentally, innocently, said something he shouldn't have. I know how embarrassed he would be and he would feel he had let the club down. I don’t want that.
So, I have no issue with it. Give the boys the education and when the experienced people, such as the media manager, thinks they are ready start drip feeding them into the system. Some boys are good at it from the word go, some develop into it and some are never that great at it and that's fine.
I know when my boys are ready to get into the public spotlight but I am more than comfortable to let the club make the decision when the time is right and let’s face it, when a player is going well the fans want to hear from them and the club knows that.
As far as clichés go I think they just pick up on what they hear. I am waiting for Lach to mention 'blue collar' in a sentence. Or that he is an 'anywhere, anytime' kind of guy…. But that's so 2013 isn’t it??
Mezz
Club Legend
- Aug 27, 2010
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Thankyou Arcassius and Tim - the responses have been really interesting and I am very grateful for the effort and time it's taken both of you to provide this opportunity for a supporter to get an insight into a player's life.
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #65
From Tim -
Good morning beetz (and everyone else) and I’m more than happy to give you some insight into this.
Agents seem to come from all walks of life. Lawyers, Accountants, Marketing, ex-players… there isn't a specific background or requirement but obviously these are all handy skill sets to have. I actually get asked this question by uni students all the time.
It is imperative that an agent is accredited with the AFL Players Association, who are the governing body for the agents. Only the players parent/legal guardian or an accredited agent can sign off on any contracts (with the club and the player) – this includes the negotiating of the contract with the club also so whilst you can actually represent a player without being accredited, it is a pointless exercise as you can’t fulfill one of the most important obligations of the role.
There is a window each year to apply for accreditation with the AFLPA. The first step means filling out an application of sorts, which asks a lot of questions about your background and experiences to make sure you’re suitable to be an agent. If you pass that stage you then need to sit a 3 hour exam which looks at the Collective Bargaining Agreement, Additional Services Agreement, the drug codes, Agents Code of Conduct (yes, we have one too), Standard Playing Contracts, Standard representation agreements and the list goes on….it’s heavy going. I didn’t study that hard in Year 12! If you get a pass mark of 75%+ you get your accreditation.
I don’t know how many people apply each year but I think generally, 50% pass the application stage and then the pass rate from those left at the exam is 50% - so about 25% of those who initially apply get through.
This is just my advice but I wouldn't recommend trying to do it by yourself. The big groups have the market share of the players (so have relationships with the clubs, understand a players value etc) plus when it comes to recruiting new talent, the little guy who doesn't have any clients, has no real experience or back up is doomed. It’s a bit like Woolies or Coles – the big get bigger and the little guys get eaten up.
From a commercial point of view there isn't generally any form of income until a year or two after they are drafted, so you may spend 1,2,3 years investing into a kid and if they only last 2 years, you’re going to have suffered a significant financial loss. What if you sign a kid and he doesn't get drafted? What if you sign a kid who has massive talent but is a problem off field? A lot of things to think about so you need to have some good football understanding of the system and how it works…. Something a lot of agents severely lack I think.
In regards to recruiting, the obvious thing is you need to understand the game and what makes a player draftable. It is a complex yet inexact science. So having a background in a talent pathway system, having coached at a good level, those kind of things are handy to have. My background, when I was recruiting, was obviously in both of these and I was fortunate to have worked with some pretty handy kids – I think I coached around 15 kids who have ended up in the AFL system (9 of them were in that one year at Glenelg!) and yes, before you ask, after a bottle of red I take 100% claim for their success ha ha. Whilst that's not true, I have been lucky enough to see what the good kids have and used these observations and experience. I hope you can see what I am trying to get at.
My advice – get the experience, network and contact the clubs to see if they need anyone. Sure, the money is nothing more than beer money and your partner may leave you because you never home on weekends throughout the football season but then again, that could be very appealing to some?
- Although I am quite comfortable in m current profession I have always wondered, how does one become a player agent/manager? Are there specific course, certifications that are required? And then how do you get in to the game?
- Also, becoming a player scout, something I think i could see myself doing later in life. I understand there's not a lot of money in it but I would thoroughly enjoy the challenge. Any advice?
Good morning beetz (and everyone else) and I’m more than happy to give you some insight into this.
Agents seem to come from all walks of life. Lawyers, Accountants, Marketing, ex-players… there isn't a specific background or requirement but obviously these are all handy skill sets to have. I actually get asked this question by uni students all the time.
It is imperative that an agent is accredited with the AFL Players Association, who are the governing body for the agents. Only the players parent/legal guardian or an accredited agent can sign off on any contracts (with the club and the player) – this includes the negotiating of the contract with the club also so whilst you can actually represent a player without being accredited, it is a pointless exercise as you can’t fulfill one of the most important obligations of the role.
There is a window each year to apply for accreditation with the AFLPA. The first step means filling out an application of sorts, which asks a lot of questions about your background and experiences to make sure you’re suitable to be an agent. If you pass that stage you then need to sit a 3 hour exam which looks at the Collective Bargaining Agreement, Additional Services Agreement, the drug codes, Agents Code of Conduct (yes, we have one too), Standard Playing Contracts, Standard representation agreements and the list goes on….it’s heavy going. I didn’t study that hard in Year 12! If you get a pass mark of 75%+ you get your accreditation.
I don’t know how many people apply each year but I think generally, 50% pass the application stage and then the pass rate from those left at the exam is 50% - so about 25% of those who initially apply get through.
This is just my advice but I wouldn't recommend trying to do it by yourself. The big groups have the market share of the players (so have relationships with the clubs, understand a players value etc) plus when it comes to recruiting new talent, the little guy who doesn't have any clients, has no real experience or back up is doomed. It’s a bit like Woolies or Coles – the big get bigger and the little guys get eaten up.
From a commercial point of view there isn't generally any form of income until a year or two after they are drafted, so you may spend 1,2,3 years investing into a kid and if they only last 2 years, you’re going to have suffered a significant financial loss. What if you sign a kid and he doesn't get drafted? What if you sign a kid who has massive talent but is a problem off field? A lot of things to think about so you need to have some good football understanding of the system and how it works…. Something a lot of agents severely lack I think.
In regards to recruiting, the obvious thing is you need to understand the game and what makes a player draftable. It is a complex yet inexact science. So having a background in a talent pathway system, having coached at a good level, those kind of things are handy to have. My background, when I was recruiting, was obviously in both of these and I was fortunate to have worked with some pretty handy kids – I think I coached around 15 kids who have ended up in the AFL system (9 of them were in that one year at Glenelg!) and yes, before you ask, after a bottle of red I take 100% claim for their success ha ha. Whilst that's not true, I have been lucky enough to see what the good kids have and used these observations and experience. I hope you can see what I am trying to get at.
My advice – get the experience, network and contact the clubs to see if they need anyone. Sure, the money is nothing more than beer money and your partner may leave you because you never home on weekends throughout the football season but then again, that could be very appealing to some?
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #66
Thankyou Arcassius and Tim - the responses have been really interesting and I am very grateful for the effort and time it's taken both of you to provide this opportunity for a supporter to get an insight into a player's life.
It's all Tim - I've been surprised and thankful for the depth he's been willing to answer questions (including the tongue in cheek ones). He's a great guy and this came about because he wanted to give to the supporters
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #68
From Tim -
Another good one, PapaJ.
The important thing to remember is that the agent's role is to give sound advice, guidance and educated opinion but at the end of the day, the player makes the decisions. Sure, at the start the boys rely on you a lot to help them make decisions but the aim should always be to educate them about what is happening in their lives so they develop and grow personally.
So in the case of a contract negotiation, the nuts and bolts dealings are done between the agent and the List or Football Manager – Brad Lloyd in Fremantle's case.
Clubs obviously know how much room in their salary cap they have and a good agent from a good company will know a players market value. There is a lot of 'crystal balling' when negotiating a contract – we are all negotiating the wages for someone based on performance or development in the years ahead… we have to make educated guesses (again, another reason that a good agent should have 'football' experience and knows where that club’s list is at both now and going forward).
It is actually a requirement under the accreditation rules that we always keep our clients up to speed with any contract negotiations. As far as how much information they need, that varies from player to player. They all want to know what is going on but some want to know on every step of the process and have some input (usually the older guys who have done it before) whilst others (the younger guys involved in their first contract negotiation) might say to me after I have initially explained what will be involved with the process and the contract itself, "Tim, you just let me know when we are close".
It's important to keep in mind to that negotiations can be distracting for some players in season but for others they can be quite removed from it. It's different for each player based on personality and experience, so you need to know and understand your client well.
- When it comes to actually negotiating contracts, most people outside of the pro-AFL scene have very little idea on how it unfolds. In particular is the nuts and bolts of negotiating a contract left entirely to you (the manager) or do the players themselves have a lot of say, or does it vary a lot - some players wanting to have a lot of say, others happy to leave it completely with the manager, or something in between; say the players lay down some non-negotiables and you take it from there? No details of course, just general speaking and I understand that you need to be discrete in answering.
Another good one, PapaJ.
The important thing to remember is that the agent's role is to give sound advice, guidance and educated opinion but at the end of the day, the player makes the decisions. Sure, at the start the boys rely on you a lot to help them make decisions but the aim should always be to educate them about what is happening in their lives so they develop and grow personally.
So in the case of a contract negotiation, the nuts and bolts dealings are done between the agent and the List or Football Manager – Brad Lloyd in Fremantle's case.
Clubs obviously know how much room in their salary cap they have and a good agent from a good company will know a players market value. There is a lot of 'crystal balling' when negotiating a contract – we are all negotiating the wages for someone based on performance or development in the years ahead… we have to make educated guesses (again, another reason that a good agent should have 'football' experience and knows where that club’s list is at both now and going forward).
It is actually a requirement under the accreditation rules that we always keep our clients up to speed with any contract negotiations. As far as how much information they need, that varies from player to player. They all want to know what is going on but some want to know on every step of the process and have some input (usually the older guys who have done it before) whilst others (the younger guys involved in their first contract negotiation) might say to me after I have initially explained what will be involved with the process and the contract itself, "Tim, you just let me know when we are close".
It's important to keep in mind to that negotiations can be distracting for some players in season but for others they can be quite removed from it. It's different for each player based on personality and experience, so you need to know and understand your client well.
Thank you Tim for giving us an interesting insight into the player manager role.
I have a couple of questions for you:
After the game on Sunday Lachie gave credit to Brett Kirk for helping to evolve his game as a midfielder to another level. I think the turning point in Freos on field performance actually started once they invested off field in their support staff and the player academy they set up for their draftees. While the senior coach is the figure head and obvious leader, people of the caliber of Simon Lloyd and Brett Kirk set up an environment and have the time to help young players to evolve and get the best out of themselves. While Ross is obviously the best coach we have ever had and is the figurehead for the coaching team I think credit needs to go to Mark Harvey for laying the foundations to put that team in place. It is obvious that all players who get drafted have the ability to succeed but clubs need to invest to get a return on their investment of both time and money.
Is this academy model something that all clubs have in place and do you think it will evolve even further in this era of player salary cap and talk of a cap on football department spend?
Also the academy that Sydney have in place obviously allows them to invest in junior development and reap rewards by getting priority access to the best NSW juniors like Heeney and by all accounts another gun player next year. While I understand the reasons behind it do you think that all clubs should be able to develop juniors and have priority access to one player outside the draft?
I have a couple of questions for you:
After the game on Sunday Lachie gave credit to Brett Kirk for helping to evolve his game as a midfielder to another level. I think the turning point in Freos on field performance actually started once they invested off field in their support staff and the player academy they set up for their draftees. While the senior coach is the figure head and obvious leader, people of the caliber of Simon Lloyd and Brett Kirk set up an environment and have the time to help young players to evolve and get the best out of themselves. While Ross is obviously the best coach we have ever had and is the figurehead for the coaching team I think credit needs to go to Mark Harvey for laying the foundations to put that team in place. It is obvious that all players who get drafted have the ability to succeed but clubs need to invest to get a return on their investment of both time and money.
Is this academy model something that all clubs have in place and do you think it will evolve even further in this era of player salary cap and talk of a cap on football department spend?
Also the academy that Sydney have in place obviously allows them to invest in junior development and reap rewards by getting priority access to the best NSW juniors like Heeney and by all accounts another gun player next year. While I understand the reasons behind it do you think that all clubs should be able to develop juniors and have priority access to one player outside the draft?
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #70
From Tim -
Ok so I better Arcassius’s initial questions. He has been work diligently away so we better not upset him.
Nickname: You are going to be shattered about this but I don’t think he has one! His old man, Robbie is ‘Scratcher’ and I noticed he ‘Cowboy’ for a while when he first came over but that’s died off I think. He and I have some nicknames for each other. None of them will be printed here however.
Roles in a Game: This is one of those ones I will just answer generically. The reality is I am not privy to most things, Lach might give me a little insight into what his role is but I am sure everyone understands that cannot be repeated unfortunately.
The first thing we all need to do is drop the whole 'positions' that we were used to in past years – full forward, flanks, pockets etc. They are still there on the team sheet but what they actually do, where they actually stand on the ground etc can be very different. Generally the roles players have in a team are consistent. In a perfect world, the same players would consistently play those roles, however, when you consider rotations, injuries, where the play is occurring on the ground (forward, mid, back third) and the personnel nearby or actually involved, this isn't always possible. So, the players need to have a good understanding of the overall team structures just in case their own personal role needs to change at some point during the game.
Biggest Weakness: I think he mentioned it post match on Sunday after the derby but he is working hard to improve his tackle numbers. Transitional Running (the act of running forward offensively then immediately running back defensively) has also been something he has been working on. After three years, I think he is getting the hang of that aspect.
Both of these things are defensive acts and I reckon defensive acts are a mind set first and then action second. Hunting the ball ad hoc and running forwards to kick goals any kid can do. Reward for effort is something we have built into us. Tackling and running hard back to stop the opposition scoring isn’t (at first) that rewarding so it needs to be taught.
Keep in mind an 18yo lad starting out at the AFL…'ok where is the ball at the moment? Where am I meant to be standing? Where is my opponent?... the ball is getting closer… am I in the right spot? Am I taking space? Is he meant to get the ball or me?...a million things are going through my head…oh crap my opponent has it! Oh no I forgot to tackle him' and 12 seconds later the opposition kicks a goal. Add to that most of the guys they are trying to tackle are big, quick, experienced men so it actually is a challenge for most young players.
What I do know is he is working hard at it and he will improve. That I can guarantee you.
Biggest Strength: I think I have probably touched on that a fair bit – his mental attitude. Physically he has always run really hard and I think the feature of his game now is his inside handballs to a running player outside of the contest. He is getting to a very, very good level with that aspect of the game I think.
Attention in a 2 team town: The AFL fishbowl is far more intense here than in Adelaide.
I think he handles it well. He is happy to have a photo or sign an autograph for a kid at any time. He is an approachable lad.
As I have mentioned we have a philosophy of only taking notice of those he needs to be affected by so that helps. I also mentioned that having a life away from football; all the boys, including Lachie, actually have girlfriends who aren't that 'into' football which I like. It gives them a break but at the same time the girls all know that life is a little different to most other boys the same age.
I remember leading up to the 2013 AFL grand final he was telling me it was berserk over here. Over the top. He said he couldn't go to the corner store to grab a loaf of bread or a carton of milk without being bailed up by excited supporters for half an hour. They even stopped him while he was driving along! I get that everyone is excited but that kind of thing does affect the players – they are trying to be the same as any other week, whilst every supporter decides they want to become a pseudo, yet friendly, stalker!
Even things like a friend or family member sending a text message of well wishes and support can create pressure. Whilst that one text message is certainly well meaning what people forget is that 99 other people are doing the same thing as well! When you’re well liked lad like Lachie is, he stresses when he can’t respond to those he wants to but at the same time he just wants a break at night and be normal. We got to the stage where he was basically turning his phone off 24 hours before the game during those finals so it wouldn't distract him. It’s exactly the same with Facebook messages and the like.
You can imagine the angst and pressure that one text message (which is really 100 of them) of 'when are you playing next? Why aren’t you getting a game?' when a lad is working his backside off in the WAFL causes. Certainly well-meaning and intended but it ends up becoming something else.
So, as supporters give them some love (what human being on this earth doesn't like that?) but give them some space too to be normal when they are away from the club. God knows their lives are different enough to everyone else’s at it is. Relaxed, happy players perform better and players performing well bring team success…. Fair call?
Homework: A lot of the players, particularly the mids, may have vision of opposition players for that weekends game (strengths/weaknesses) and sometimes they may get some written notes on stoppage set ups dependent on who the opposition ruckman/mids are that weekend.
Kirky: Again, I need to be a little bit careful here.
What I can tell you is Kirky has been a big part of Lachie's development both on and off field. Lach actually left the tutelage of the development coaches a year earlier than normal but then spent the year (2014) being mentored by Brett instead. Among the obvious on field development, in the pre-season of 2013/14 they would go for an early morning swim together on Saturdays, then head back to the Kirk household for a smoothie and a chat.
On field, he has helped develop Lachie with is positioning at stoppages, his transitional running patterns and transitional run as well as giving him some pointers on how he can consistently impact on games, particularly at the stoppages.
- What is Lachie's nickname with the player group?
- Do players have set roles all game, or do the roles change depending on who is in the area at the time?
- What does Lachie perceive to be his biggest weakness to work on?
- ... and his biggest strength?
- How does he deal with having more attention recently in a two-team town?
- What sort of homework is involved each week outside of the physical work they do?
- What is an example of a tip or trick Kirky has passed on in working with Lachie?
Ok so I better Arcassius’s initial questions. He has been work diligently away so we better not upset him.
Nickname: You are going to be shattered about this but I don’t think he has one! His old man, Robbie is ‘Scratcher’ and I noticed he ‘Cowboy’ for a while when he first came over but that’s died off I think. He and I have some nicknames for each other. None of them will be printed here however.
Roles in a Game: This is one of those ones I will just answer generically. The reality is I am not privy to most things, Lach might give me a little insight into what his role is but I am sure everyone understands that cannot be repeated unfortunately.
The first thing we all need to do is drop the whole 'positions' that we were used to in past years – full forward, flanks, pockets etc. They are still there on the team sheet but what they actually do, where they actually stand on the ground etc can be very different. Generally the roles players have in a team are consistent. In a perfect world, the same players would consistently play those roles, however, when you consider rotations, injuries, where the play is occurring on the ground (forward, mid, back third) and the personnel nearby or actually involved, this isn't always possible. So, the players need to have a good understanding of the overall team structures just in case their own personal role needs to change at some point during the game.
Biggest Weakness: I think he mentioned it post match on Sunday after the derby but he is working hard to improve his tackle numbers. Transitional Running (the act of running forward offensively then immediately running back defensively) has also been something he has been working on. After three years, I think he is getting the hang of that aspect.
Both of these things are defensive acts and I reckon defensive acts are a mind set first and then action second. Hunting the ball ad hoc and running forwards to kick goals any kid can do. Reward for effort is something we have built into us. Tackling and running hard back to stop the opposition scoring isn’t (at first) that rewarding so it needs to be taught.
Keep in mind an 18yo lad starting out at the AFL…'ok where is the ball at the moment? Where am I meant to be standing? Where is my opponent?... the ball is getting closer… am I in the right spot? Am I taking space? Is he meant to get the ball or me?...a million things are going through my head…oh crap my opponent has it! Oh no I forgot to tackle him' and 12 seconds later the opposition kicks a goal. Add to that most of the guys they are trying to tackle are big, quick, experienced men so it actually is a challenge for most young players.
What I do know is he is working hard at it and he will improve. That I can guarantee you.
Biggest Strength: I think I have probably touched on that a fair bit – his mental attitude. Physically he has always run really hard and I think the feature of his game now is his inside handballs to a running player outside of the contest. He is getting to a very, very good level with that aspect of the game I think.
Attention in a 2 team town: The AFL fishbowl is far more intense here than in Adelaide.
I think he handles it well. He is happy to have a photo or sign an autograph for a kid at any time. He is an approachable lad.
As I have mentioned we have a philosophy of only taking notice of those he needs to be affected by so that helps. I also mentioned that having a life away from football; all the boys, including Lachie, actually have girlfriends who aren't that 'into' football which I like. It gives them a break but at the same time the girls all know that life is a little different to most other boys the same age.
I remember leading up to the 2013 AFL grand final he was telling me it was berserk over here. Over the top. He said he couldn't go to the corner store to grab a loaf of bread or a carton of milk without being bailed up by excited supporters for half an hour. They even stopped him while he was driving along! I get that everyone is excited but that kind of thing does affect the players – they are trying to be the same as any other week, whilst every supporter decides they want to become a pseudo, yet friendly, stalker!
Even things like a friend or family member sending a text message of well wishes and support can create pressure. Whilst that one text message is certainly well meaning what people forget is that 99 other people are doing the same thing as well! When you’re well liked lad like Lachie is, he stresses when he can’t respond to those he wants to but at the same time he just wants a break at night and be normal. We got to the stage where he was basically turning his phone off 24 hours before the game during those finals so it wouldn't distract him. It’s exactly the same with Facebook messages and the like.
You can imagine the angst and pressure that one text message (which is really 100 of them) of 'when are you playing next? Why aren’t you getting a game?' when a lad is working his backside off in the WAFL causes. Certainly well-meaning and intended but it ends up becoming something else.
So, as supporters give them some love (what human being on this earth doesn't like that?) but give them some space too to be normal when they are away from the club. God knows their lives are different enough to everyone else’s at it is. Relaxed, happy players perform better and players performing well bring team success…. Fair call?
Homework: A lot of the players, particularly the mids, may have vision of opposition players for that weekends game (strengths/weaknesses) and sometimes they may get some written notes on stoppage set ups dependent on who the opposition ruckman/mids are that weekend.
Kirky: Again, I need to be a little bit careful here.
What I can tell you is Kirky has been a big part of Lachie's development both on and off field. Lach actually left the tutelage of the development coaches a year earlier than normal but then spent the year (2014) being mentored by Brett instead. Among the obvious on field development, in the pre-season of 2013/14 they would go for an early morning swim together on Saturdays, then head back to the Kirk household for a smoothie and a chat.
On field, he has helped develop Lachie with is positioning at stoppages, his transitional running patterns and transitional run as well as giving him some pointers on how he can consistently impact on games, particularly at the stoppages.
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Yeah kudos for the entertaining answers Tim. Restored my faith in player managers a little after suffering through the smugness of Pickering in the media and the whole Ricky Nixon trainwreck (and who's that shyster who runs all his affairs through the media - Colin Young is it?)
I bet Arc added this bit in by himself though.
I bet Arc added this bit in by himself though.
Arcassius
Team Chaplain
- Thread starter
- #75
From Tim -
Thanks Quay Club.
You're right, there are a lot of people and coaches who influence and develop a player other than the senior coach. In fact development and line coaches often spend more time one on one with the players than the senior coach does.
Both Simon Lloyd and more recently, Brett Kirk, have had impact with Lachie’s development. Ashley Prescott also was a great help before he went to the Gold Coast.
I also agree that development coaches are an integral component in ensuring an investment, in this case a new draftee, pay off. I think it was once said that each draftee will have over $250,000 (that was some time ago so the figure may be higher now) on them when you take in all the relevant costs before they become a regular senior player and I would suggest some actually cost even more. It makes sense then to have people who are skilled in getting the best out of these players and protect that investment doesn't it?
All clubs have development programs (the academy you referred to) and coaches now. In the past, depending on the wealth of the club these numbers could vary from club to club. Not that long ago some clubs only had one development coach who may have been part time whilst the wealthier club may have had 2-3. Don’t get confused with the actual assistant coaches who are a separate beast again.
With the advent of the Luxury Tax in regards to the football department spend, whilst there may be one or two coaches who may go I think clubs now know these roles are an important role so I would think they will play a big role.
With the NSW and QLD Academies, I think we need to remember that these have been put into place to ensure the best local talent gets not only the coaching they need but are not lost to other, more supported sporting codes up there. As a rule, Australian Rules is the stronger code in WA, SA and Victoria so the infrastructure and money is there to make sure the potential draftees are developed appropriately. If we dismantle that up there kids like Isaac Heeney may have been lost to the Newcastle Knights.
I would also think that the money these clubs have invested vs actual outcomes (drafted players who go onto meaningful careers) is probably pretty skewed. The $ spent vs the returned investment over the years wouldn’t be that great I wouldn’t think.
The Heeney’s (and yes apparently there is another talented lad up there in the Swans Academy) of this world have been few and far between over the journey and life of the Academies so I wouldn’t be too anxious about them at this stage when you are based in an AFL-centric state.
I actually think there should be an academy based up at the Michael Long Centre in Darwin for the NT kids. I believe there may be an AFL club that has been looking at that option. You would think that the investment into the NT may be just as shaky as the other emerging states but I reckon you would be happy with having first access to Jed Anderson, Jake Neade and Nakia Cockatoo over the past three years wouldn’t you!
Each club having access to one player? It’s an interesting one. From a club point of view I think investing early into one kid is pretty risky. What happens if:
I could be so far off the mark it’s not funny!!
- After the game on Sunday Lachie gave credit to Brett Kirk for helping to evolve his game as a midfielder to another level. I think the turning point in Freos on field performance actually started once they invested off field in their support staff and the player academy they set up for their draftees. While the senior coach is the figure head and obvious leader, people of the caliber of Simon Lloyd and Brett Kirk set up an environment and have the time to help young players to evolve and get the best out of themselves. While Ross is obviously the best coach we have ever had and is the figurehead for the coaching team I think credit needs to go to Mark Harvey for laying the foundations to put that team in place. It is obvious that all players who get drafted have the ability to succeed but clubs need to invest to get a return on their investment of both time and money.
- Is this academy model something that all clubs have in place and do you think it will evolve even further in this era of player salary cap and talk of a cap on football department spend?
- Also the academy that Sydney have in place obviously allows them to invest in junior development and reap rewards by getting priority access to the best NSW juniors like Heeney and by all accounts another gun player next year. While I understand the reasons behind it do you think that all clubs should be able to develop juniors and have priority access to one player outside the draft?
Thanks Quay Club.
You're right, there are a lot of people and coaches who influence and develop a player other than the senior coach. In fact development and line coaches often spend more time one on one with the players than the senior coach does.
Both Simon Lloyd and more recently, Brett Kirk, have had impact with Lachie’s development. Ashley Prescott also was a great help before he went to the Gold Coast.
I also agree that development coaches are an integral component in ensuring an investment, in this case a new draftee, pay off. I think it was once said that each draftee will have over $250,000 (that was some time ago so the figure may be higher now) on them when you take in all the relevant costs before they become a regular senior player and I would suggest some actually cost even more. It makes sense then to have people who are skilled in getting the best out of these players and protect that investment doesn't it?
All clubs have development programs (the academy you referred to) and coaches now. In the past, depending on the wealth of the club these numbers could vary from club to club. Not that long ago some clubs only had one development coach who may have been part time whilst the wealthier club may have had 2-3. Don’t get confused with the actual assistant coaches who are a separate beast again.
With the advent of the Luxury Tax in regards to the football department spend, whilst there may be one or two coaches who may go I think clubs now know these roles are an important role so I would think they will play a big role.
With the NSW and QLD Academies, I think we need to remember that these have been put into place to ensure the best local talent gets not only the coaching they need but are not lost to other, more supported sporting codes up there. As a rule, Australian Rules is the stronger code in WA, SA and Victoria so the infrastructure and money is there to make sure the potential draftees are developed appropriately. If we dismantle that up there kids like Isaac Heeney may have been lost to the Newcastle Knights.
I would also think that the money these clubs have invested vs actual outcomes (drafted players who go onto meaningful careers) is probably pretty skewed. The $ spent vs the returned investment over the years wouldn’t be that great I wouldn’t think.
The Heeney’s (and yes apparently there is another talented lad up there in the Swans Academy) of this world have been few and far between over the journey and life of the Academies so I wouldn’t be too anxious about them at this stage when you are based in an AFL-centric state.
I actually think there should be an academy based up at the Michael Long Centre in Darwin for the NT kids. I believe there may be an AFL club that has been looking at that option. You would think that the investment into the NT may be just as shaky as the other emerging states but I reckon you would be happy with having first access to Jed Anderson, Jake Neade and Nakia Cockatoo over the past three years wouldn’t you!
Each club having access to one player? It’s an interesting one. From a club point of view I think investing early into one kid is pretty risky. What happens if:
- He doesn’t develop anywhere near enough to play at AFL level?
- The list needs suddenly change significantly and in unforeseen matter that means he may not be required (could he be pre-traded before the draft?)
- What if he falls out of love with the game and chooses to throw it in?
- Gets an unfortunate career ending injury?
I could be so far off the mark it’s not funny!!
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