Relocation and Mergers rumoured to be back in the news!!!

[Carringbush2010]

My logic is that yes, there will be many supporters who will be upset, but there will also be many to embrace the opportunity to follow a new entity that is not handcuffed to AFL house to remain afloat.

So you're expecting fans who have been following clubs that have been around for 100+ years to just roll over and dump their club 'coz it shood be nashnil'. Righto.

If these clubs are such an anchor on the rest of the competition then why are still 'kept afloat'? Why has there not been a proposal to cull or merge them?

Here's a clue or two:

• For starters for any merger or cull it would take a majority vote from all the clubs for any proposal to pass. That would mean a majority vote from members of all clubs before the club even puts in the proposal. It's in the charter.
• The lowest fan base for any vic club is 200k +, there is no known universe that HQ would want to disrupt that. Even if they had the power to overrule the voting members of all the clubs, which they don't.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

So you're expecting fans who have been following clubs that have been around for 100+ years to just roll over and dump their club 'coz it shood be nashnil'. Righto.

No, I’m not. But I think club relocation and mergers are inevitable. It’s just a matter of time.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Call me thick, and I'm sure many of you will, but what I don't get is how merger/rellocation talk in the top rungs of the sport could even start without having to consult all of the major players in the sport, and I'm thinking sponsors/media here.
Unless I'm mistaken, the broadcast rights are based on a certain amount of matches being played yeah? And I'd assume certain teams being involved.
Otherwise there is a breach in the deal/contract yeah?

So I can't really see much changing any time soon, not unless certain clauses get written in to whatever contracts with the media/sponsors et al.

For any merge / fold / relocation of any club it has to be put to the members of that club, only if the members vote in favour is it then put to the rest of the league clubs. For any proposal to be considered it requires a majority vote of all the clubs.

I'm pretty sure this is how any major club change is managed, I might be wrong but I know it's not just whatever HQ says goes. Clubs and members hold sway.

I'm not across any contractual obligations with media and league / club sponsors, . However I imagine in the context of the above they wouldn't have a say, the club and league provides a product and the media pays to broadcast, whatever that product is is what they get.

 

[Carringbush2010]

No, I’m not. But I think club relocation and mergers are inevitable. It’s just a matter of time.

Of course when the market dictates it, so unless there is a seismic shift in the market from what it is now then what we've got now is likely to remain for the foreseeable future. So it's not even 'inevitable'

Now I know that is not ideal because what we have does not represent a truly national competition.

That's not because HQ have a grudge against anything non vic, it's because the paying public (market) is reflective of the make up of the competition, no paying public no footy.

 

[Percel]

Tassie Kangas has a nice ring to it

As does the West Melbourne Demondogs

As does the St Kilda 66'ers

#worksforphilly

 

[pablo668]

For any merge / fold / relocation of any club it has to be put to the members of that club, only if the members vote in favour is it then put to the rest of the league clubs. For any proposal to be considered it requires a majority vote of all the clubs.

I'm pretty sure this is how any major club change is managed, I might be wrong but I know it's not just whatever HQ says goes. Clubs and members hold sway.

I'm not across any contractual obligations with media and league / club sponsors, . However I imagine in the context of the above they wouldn't have a say, the club and league provides a product and the media pays to broadcast, whatever that product is is what they get.

Opps, I'd forgotten about that bit.
I guess what I was trying to say is that unless a current broadcast contract has this kind of change written in, doing a merge or let's say changing the existing number of teams in the comp could get problematic. or at least I imagine it could.
Good comment btw.

 

[Roylion]

The estimates for ex-Fitzroy supporters are that roughly 1/3 switched support to Brisbane, 1/3 changed to another team and 1/3 were lost to the game entirely.

.

The Fitzroy Football Club commissioned a survey in 1998 that suggested only 27% of Fitzroy supporters were following the Brisbane Lions.

Adam Muyt, author of a Fitzroy book called "Maroon and Blue" - published in 2006 - conducted hundreds of interviews with Fitzroy officials, players, members and supporters for the book.

On the basis of his interviews with hundreds of former Fitzroy players, officials, shareholders, members and supporters and he also spoke to hundreds of other Fitzroy supporters he made the following conclusions:

• at least 40 percent of Fitzroy supporters have been lost to AFL football. Assuming that Fitzroy's support base was about 200,000 (as estimated by Roy Morgan) then we can assume about 80,000 no longer actively support / have lost interest in AFL football.
• between 5-10 percent of Fitzroy supporters now follow another code or lower levels of Australian Rules football as their primary football experience. (about 10,000-20,000)
• no more than 5 percent of Fitzroy supporters now follow another AFL side, including a few hundred that went across to North Melbourne. (No more than 10,000). This does not necessarily mean taking out a AFL club membership of their new club. Maybe 800 Fitzroy members / supporters took out a membership of North Melbourne in the years following 1996.
• over 40 percent of Fitzroy people support / follow the Brisbane Lions, but may not be necessarily paid up members. (About 80,000). In 1997, Brisbane's Victorian membership was 3,200, but has been as high as 8,000. And that's only because Brisbane made an effort to incorporate significant aspects of the Fitzroy identity and history into their own club, not because there was a merger or relocation.

 

[big_e]

.

The Fitzroy Football Club commissioned a survey in 1998 that suggested only 27% of Fitzroy supporters were following the Brisbane Lions.

Adam Muyt, author of a Fitzroy book called "Maroon and Blue" - published in 2006 - conducted hundreds of interviews with Fitzroy officials, players, members and supporters for the book.

On the basis of his interviews with hundreds of former Fitzroy players, officials, shareholders, members and supporters and he also spoke to hundreds of other Fitzroy supporters he made the following conclusions:

• at least 40 percent of Fitzroy supporters have been lost to AFL football. Assuming that Fitzroy's support base was about 200,000 (as estimated by Roy Morgan) then we can assume about 80,000 no longer actively support / have lost interest in AFL football.
• between 5-10 percent of Fitzroy supporters now follow another code or lower levels of Australian Rules football as their primary football experience. (about 10,000-20,000)
• no more than 5 percent of Fitzroy supporters now follow another AFL side, including a few hundred that went across to North Melbourne. (No more than 10,000). This does not necessarily mean taking out a AFL club membership of their new club. Maybe 800 Fitzroy members / supporters took out a membership of North Melbourne in the years following 1996.
• over 40 percent of Fitzroy people support / follow the Brisbane Lions, but may not be necessarily paid up members. (About 80,000). In 1997, Brisbane's Victorian membership was 3,200, but has been as high as 8,000. And that's only because Brisbane made an effort to incorporate significant aspects of the Fitzroy identity and history into their own club, not because there was a merger or relocation.

Interesting stats.

I know if North Melbourne ceased to exist I wouldn't follow footy any more. I've hardly watched a non-North game for years (less than half of the grand finals of the past decade, for instance) so I wouldn't even really miss it.

 

[Carringbush2010]

no more than 5 percent of Fitzroy supporters now follow another AFL side

Ouch!

It is no wonder why the clubs / league are averse to folds/ relocation's or mergers.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Opps, I'd forgotten about that bit.
I guess what I was trying to say is that unless a current broadcast contract has this kind of change written in, doing a merge or let's say changing the existing number of teams in the comp could get problematic. or at least I imagine it could.
Good comment btw.

It's an interesting question that no one has posed previously that I can recall, I'm only guessing but I imagine the broadcasters paying for the rights are subject to whatever they get i:e whatever it is now and IF there is possible future change i:e a diminishment in the market coz fold, merge, relocate then they'd do their homework before signing the deal.

So in saying that I imagine that the broadcasters are pretty confident that the current landscape will stay the course and a drop off on in tv ratings is unlikely i:e the fans are retained.

 

[HELMET!]

I can't imagine any Vic team ever contemplating a merge, the club would have to be completely run into the ground first.

A lot of both teams fans would completely lose interest in the game and if they stayed they would be constantly reminded and have the pi55 taken that they're supporting a team that merged with their rival.

I would imagine it would take almost a generation before the merged team would become popular with memberships. A relocation to Tasmania would be similar, they already have their own teams and would take a while to shift their allegiance even if the new Tasmanian team is the only team they can watch live.

 

[Stabby McGee]

Tassie Kangas has a nice ring to it

As does the West Melbourne Demondogs

The St Whatever we don’t give a * thingos

Deathriding teams is nasty. Sure I want us to beat you by 20 goals every time we meet, but to want to see you merge or die... hell no! I’d be out there raising funds for your club.

It’s a game, not a war

 

[beema limapep]

Freemantle are already very low on just about any method you use to rank the success of a club and you want to add another one to W.A..

Yep.

 

[beema limapep]

.

The Fitzroy Football Club commissioned a survey in 1998 that suggested only 27% of Fitzroy supporters were following the Brisbane Lions.

Adam Muyt, author of a Fitzroy book called "Maroon and Blue" - published in 2006 - conducted hundreds of interviews with Fitzroy officials, players, members and supporters for the book.

On the basis of his interviews with hundreds of former Fitzroy players, officials, shareholders, members and supporters and he also spoke to hundreds of other Fitzroy supporters he made the following conclusions:

• at least 40 percent of Fitzroy supporters have been lost to AFL football. Assuming that Fitzroy's support base was about 200,000 (as estimated by Roy Morgan) then we can assume about 80,000 no longer actively support / have lost interest in AFL football.
• between 5-10 percent of Fitzroy supporters now follow another code or lower levels of Australian Rules football as their primary football experience. (about 10,000-20,000)
• no more than 5 percent of Fitzroy supporters now follow another AFL side, including a few hundred that went across to North Melbourne. (No more than 10,000). This does not necessarily mean taking out a AFL club membership of their new club. Maybe 800 Fitzroy members / supporters took out a membership of North Melbourne in the years following 1996.
• over 40 percent of Fitzroy people support / follow the Brisbane Lions, but may not be necessarily paid up members. (About 80,000). In 1997, Brisbane's Victorian membership was 3,200, but has been as high as 8,000. And that's only because Brisbane made an effort to incorporate significant aspects of the Fitzroy identity and history into their own club, not because there was a merger or relocation.

What percentage of Fitzroy supporters were truly rusted on though? Of those 200,000 how many went to a at least a few games each year? 15%? 20%?

 

[Roylion]

What percentage of Fitzroy supporters were truly rusted on though? Of those 200,000 how many went to a at least a few games each year? 15%? 20%?

Depends how sucessful they were. In 1981, Fitzroy had the fourth highest membership in the league.

 

[telsor]

What percentage of Fitzroy supporters were truly rusted on though? Of those 200,000 how many went to a at least a few games each year? 15%? 20%?

Similar to all clubs really.

If anything, from my interactions with people, I tend to find the small club fans tend to be more passionate on average (although that could be just perception).

 

[telsor]

Tassie Kangas has a nice ring to it

As does the West Melbourne Demondogs

Bold talk from someone whose club would be the closest to the chopping block of them all.

 

[JackOutback]

I can't imagine any Vic team ever contemplating a merge, the club would have to be completely run into the ground first.

A lot of both teams fans would completely lose interest in the game and if they stayed they would be constantly reminded and have the pi55 taken that they're supporting a team that merged with their rival.

I would imagine it would take almost a generation before the merged team would become popular with memberships. A relocation to Tasmania would be similar, they already have their own teams and would take a while to shift their allegiance even if the new Tasmanian team is the only team they can watch live.

While it's true that some fans would be lost to the game, a new Tasmanian team could potentially provide the AFL with an equal number of new fans. The AFL has to look to the future and sometimes short-term pain is required for long-term gain.

 

[Established1870]

While it's true that some fans would be lost to the game, a new Tasmanian team could potentially provide the AFL with an equal number of new fans. The AFL has to look to the future and sometimes short-term pain is required for long-term gain.

Tassie would eclipse 2-3 clubs in Melbourne for support the second they came in but I reckon that's only if they're a stand alone side. Tasmanians would (and quite rightly) reject a failed Victorian club. If anyone deserves team of their own own it's them.

 

[telsor]

While it's true that some fans would be lost to the game, a new Tasmanian team could potentially provide the AFL with an equal number of new fans. The AFL has to look to the future and sometimes short-term pain is required for long-term gain.

Really?

Where would Tas find these tens of thousands (potentially hundreds of thousands) of fans who had no interest in the game previously?

 

[Obzerva]

Really?

Where would Tas find these tens of thousands (potentially hundreds of thousands) of fans who had no interest in the game previously?

I’d suggest that it’s not they’d be new football fans, they would have a team they support, but that support may not extend further than watching the team on tv.
If they had a team they could watch in person, and potentially be a paid up member to, that would be a different story.

the problem with the tassie team situation is they want their own team, not an implant that may or may not take.

given the population and the decentralised population geography, the numbers just aren’t overwhelmingly convincing for the standalone team

but hey, the Suns were a long term proposition, and sometimes you just gotta bet and hope.

 

[telsor]

I’d suggest that it’s not they’d be new football fans, they would have a team they support, but that support may not extend further than watching the team on tv.
If they had a team they could watch in person, and potentially be a paid up member to, that would be a different story.

the problem with the tassie team situation is they want their own team, not an implant that may or may not take.

given the population and the decentralised population geography, the numbers just aren’t overwhelmingly convincing for the standalone team

but hey, the Suns were a long term proposition, and sometimes you just gotta bet and hope.

So when you said "new fans", you didn't mean actual new fans, but rather people who already watch TV (a net loss for TV ratings with the Vic fans lost), people who already buy merch (they might buy more, but lets face it, not enough to pay for a club) and quite likely already attend games in Tas (after all, there would only be 4 new games down there, so we're not talking a lot of extra capacity).


The suns are a long term proposition because there are a million people in the immediate area and most of them are ACTUAL new fans.

As opposed to half a million scattered over a fairly wide area who already follow the game about as much as they're ever likely to (in a financial sense).


If you want to kill off Vic club(s) just say so. Stop trying to pretend that you're doing so to replace it with a club in an economic backwater (that's going futher backwards compared to the rest of the country) and pretend that it would somehow be a positive for the game.

 

[Papa G]

I want to kill off Vic clubs. The couple that that serve no real purpose other than provide a few more derby games for the bigger Vic clubs. The ones that don't really serve a region of Melbourne, the ones that only the few would mourn.

 

[telsor]

I want to kill off Vic clubs. The couple that that serve no real purpose other than provide a few more derby games for the bigger Vic clubs. The ones that don't really serve a region of Melbourne, the ones that only the few would mourn.

The ones that have similar sized fanbases to Port....


Why should we keep Port again?

 

[JackOutback]

So when you said "new fans", you didn't mean actual new fans, but rather people who already watch TV (a net loss for TV ratings with the Vic fans lost), people who already buy merch (they might buy more, but lets face it, not enough to pay for a club) and quite likely already attend games in Tas (after all, there would only be 4 new games down there, so we're not talking a lot of extra capacity).


The suns are a long term proposition because there are a million people in the immediate area and most of them are ACTUAL new fans.

As opposed to half a million scattered over a fairly wide area who already follow the game about as much as they're ever likely to (in a financial sense).


If you want to kill off Vic club(s) just say so. Stop trying to pretend that you're doing so to replace it with a club in an economic backwater (that's going futher backwards compared to the rest of the country) and pretend that it would somehow be a positive for the game.

An Australian rules can that doesn’t follow the AFL is a new fan as far as the AFL is concerned. A fan who may watch a handful of games with a passing interest who turns into a dedicated fan who watched weekly and becomes a paid-up member is a new fan, for all intents and purposes.