VFL Round 1 v Sandringham @ RSEA Park. Friday March 22, 4:05pm

[sr36]

Let’s be objective about this- for my view to be wrong, then every player drafted would be used in the one position he’s known to play. ie never develop any positional flexibility.

Which clearly is not the case.

But you want to play him wing because he's tall to be used in aerial contests on the wing. For one we don't use wings for aerial contests on the wing. Although it would help defensively - Sidey gets caught defending in the air way too often. For 2 Allan hasn't shown much if anything in terms of aerial contests.

 

[No SPIN]

My view is that AFL is about 25% athletic ability, about 25% skill and about 50% above the shoulders. With those percentages becoming bigger or smaller depending on the role. All three areas can and do improve.

With Allan the 25%s are going to be top shelf. It's the 50% that is in doubt.

He'll improve and get smarter and more decisive. But my view is forget about the wing. If he gets smart enough for that, he'll be an absolute weapon in other roles. He'll be in the centre square or cutting teams up from the Naicos half back role.

So really we are only differing on his preferred role - which is fair enough.

 

[sr36]

So really we are only differing on his preferred role - which is fair enough.

But also the role of winger itself. Does any club use their wingman as aerial targets on the wing? They run different patterns to that. The rucks and the forwards give you the aerial target on the wing. A tall winger would be great for their defensive part of their role, but Allan hasn't shown anything in the air that I've seen.

 

[No SPIN]

But also the role of winger itself. Does any club use their wingman as aerial targets on the wing? They run different patterns to that. The rucks and the forwards give you the aerial target on the wing. A tall winger would be great for their defensive part of their role, but Allan hasn't shown anything in the air that I've seen.

Isn’t it his unique blend of athleticism and HEIGHT that offers the chance to break the mould, and make him a weapon?

 

[sr36]

Isn’t it his unique blend of athleticism and HEIGHT that offers the chance to break the mould, and make him a weapon?

He's a promising runner, who hasnt shown that he's good in the air. Why would you be focussing your attention on us getting the best out of his aerial game rather than the strengths which are far more likely to make him a player.

Some of the tall mids have had a really dangerous marking game, but the big thing they've had going for them is that they've been able to carry more weight and have thus been bigger and stronger than their midfield opponents.

You're trying to create a strength out of something that isn't a strength. That'll take years and probably fail.

They'll be working on his whole game. He may one day be able to use his height as a weapon in the air - and if that happens then it's time to discuss how best to use that weapon. But it's just not a weapon at the moment and probably won't ever be. It's a silly thing to be trying to plan around.

We're not talking about Isaac Heeney and if we were we wouldn't be talking wing. Do you use his aerial game up forward or do you use him in the midfield?

 

[No SPIN]

He's a promising runner, who hasnt shown that he's good in the air. Why would you be focussing your attention on us getting the best out of his aerial game rather than the strengths which are far more likely to make him a player.

Some of the tall mids have had a really dangerous marking game, but the big thing they've had going for them is that they've been able to carry more weight and have thus been bigger and stronger than their midfield opponents.

You're trying to create a strength out of something that isn't a strength. That'll take years and probably fail.

They'll be working on his whole game. He may one day be able to use his height as a weapon in the air - and if that happens then it's time to discuss how best to use that weapon. But it's just not a weapon at the moment and probably won't ever be. It's a silly thing to be trying to plan around.

I think you’ve misunderstood me - he has a point of difference with his height compared to other wingers. I’m not suggesting we focus on his aerial game at the exclusion of the other attributes that would make him a good winger.

 

[sr36]

I think you’ve misunderstood me - he has a point of difference with his height compared to other wingers. I’m not suggesting he becomes a primary aerial target.

But he needs to be good in the air for that point of difference to matter and he's not yet. And he also needs to be used in a way that point of difference would matter, which isn't how we use wings. Except in defence. Sidey is horribly out of form, but even when in form his aerial game is a bit of an issue as he regularly is in aerial contests in dangerous spots in defence.

 

[No SPIN]

But he needs to be good in the air for that point of difference to matter and he's not yet. And he also needs to be used in a way that point of difference would matter, which isn't how we use wings. Except in defence. Sidey is horribly out of form, but even when in form his aerial game is a bit of an issue as he regularly is in aerial contests in dangerous spots in defence.

Ok - so now what you are saying is that his aerial game has got to be better than Sidey. I don’t think that’s a huge hurdle to overcome.

 

[Maggie5]

But he needs to be good in the air for that point of difference to matter and he's not yet. And he also needs to be used in a way that point of difference would matter, which isn't how we use wings. Except in defence. Sidey is horribly out of form, but even when in form his aerial game is a bit of an issue as he regularly is in aerial contests in dangerous spots in defence.

The stats bug has got me today.

Just looked up Sidey's contested marks for the time he has played with us. Was very surprised to see only 54 total, average of 0.2.
However his total for marks is 1573 an average of 5.0.

I think his game is more running to positions rather than aerial.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

The stats bug has got me today.

Just looked up Sidey's contested marks for the time he has played with us. Was very surprised to see only 54 total, average of 0.2.
However his total for marks is 1573 an average of 5.0.

I think his game is more running to positions rather than aerial.

I don't recall him ever raising his arms above his head except to celebrate a goal.

 

[Mollythedolly]

But also the role of winger itself. Does any club use their wingman as aerial targets on the wing? They run different patterns to that. The rucks and the forwards give you the aerial target on the wing. A tall winger would be great for their defensive part of their role, but Allan hasn't shown anything in the air that I've seen.

I’d say we use WHE as a marking target whether he’s playing HF, wing, or HB. I think it’s more about how good your wingmen are with their overhead marking, a lot aren’t necessarily that good. Buts it’s not what they’re in the side for.

 

[TradeDraft]

 

[sr36]

I’d say we use WHE as a marking target whether he’s playing HF, wing, or HB. I think it’s more about how good your wingmen are with their overhead marking, a lot aren’t necessarily that good. Buts it’s not what they’re in the side for.

Shorter target definitely, but how often are our wingers 75 metres ahead of the ball in position to hit up as a long option - that's the half forwards.

 

[SchuPie]

Thanks Dave - whomever edited it, certainly didn't seem keen on show us many of our first half goals

 

[Gone Critical]

My view is that AFL is about 25% athletic ability, about 25% skill and about 50% above the shoulders. With those percentages becoming bigger or smaller depending on the role. All three areas can and do improve.

With Allan the 25%s are going to be top shelf. It's the 50% that is in doubt.

He'll improve and get smarter and more decisive. But my view is forget about the wing. If he gets smart enough for that, he'll be an absolute weapon in other roles. He'll be in the centre square or cutting teams up from the Naicos half back role.

I think thats a bit too much of a formula. David Parkin once spoke to us back in the day, A grade ammos, so a good standard. Discussed the difference between VFL(pre AFL) players and the top country, surburban and ammo players. I think its an opinion that still rings true.

He said lets forget the top level of the elite competition, they are just much better than anyone else on god given talent alone. combine that with dedication and they are just better. They can waste their talent but you can't get to the very top without it.

I paraphrase what he next said."Drop back to the average VFL player of the day. They are not better than your best guys, they can't run faster, mark better, kick better etc. They just want it more". That speaks to the 50% above the head which I think is true for the AFL soldiers. If you are going to be top line however, what we hope for for Allen, although that has come off a bit, he needs to turn out to be more in the skills and athletic ability. He has to be just better in those areas combined than the large majority. If we just want him to be a soldier he doesnt need to stand out as much.

 

[Jen2310]

Ive noticed that Allan is spending less time on the wing and more on the inside.
Bytel. Carmichael -- even HH have been playing more wing than Allan.

 

[Chameleon75]

Ive noticed that Allan is spending less time on the wing and more on the inside.
Bytel. Carmichael -- even HH have been playing more wing than Allan.

does steene play this week or is he still in protocol

 

[sr36]

I think thats a bit too much of a formula. David Parkin once spoke to us back in the day, A grade ammos, so a good standard. Discussed the difference between VFL(pre AFL) players and the top country, surburban and ammo players. I think its an opinion that still rings true.

He said lets forget the top level of the elite competition, they are just much better than anyone else on god given talent alone. combine that with dedication and they are just better. They can waste their talent but you can't get to the very top without it.

I paraphrase what he next said."Drop back to the average VFL player of the day. They are not better than your best guys, they can't run faster, mark better, kick better etc. They just want it more". That speaks to the 50% above the head which I think is true for the AFL soldiers. If you are going to be top line however, what we hope for for Allen, although that has come off a bit, he needs to turn out to be more in the skills and athletic ability. He has to be just better in those areas combined than the large majority. If we just want him to be a soldier he doesnt need to stand out as much.

My percentages are garbage numbers, but what I meant by above the shoulders was more than just effort. It was game sense, positioning, awareness, speed of mind - some of which I'd put in the God given category. So I was more saying the skills and physical attributes might be there for a role, but it's not as straight forward as just having to learn the mental side of the game. Most players just don't have the natural mental talent to become elite in that regard - like with altheticism and hand eye coordination for skills. They can get better at all three, but the Tom Mitchells and Scott Pendleburys of the footy world will always have most of them covered above the shoulders.

 

[Jen2310]

does steene play this week or is he still in protocol

Post bye imo with no vfl next week
He isnt back in full training. Started some rehab work today, so has to go through the protocol steps. He told me on friday he was feeling better, so he is now able to progress for some football stuff.

 

[Dundalis]

For every Frampton example there 50 where games sense is learnt.
In our case Mihocek back to fwd, and Howe fwd to back.

For me game sense is a completely separate thing from learning a position. Game sense is your ability to be in the right place consistently in order to affect the play. It's positionless. If you have it though, it allows to you learn new positions very quickly, where others without it sometimes never learn a new position at all. Players that learn new positions quickly IMO are players that already have elite game sense. It's pretty comparable to footy IQ. It's mostly innate IMO.