Preview Round 20 - Carlton vs GWS Giants, Sunday 5th August 2018, Etihad Stadium, 1.10pm

[Land of the Giants]

In the end, we got the job done against St. Kilda in a reasonably convincing manner on a somewhat flat night at Spotless Stadium. Not much atmosphere, although it was heartening to see how full the members section was. Plenty of depth there!

I think everyone was expecting a win and were somewhat flummoxed by the slow start. I was frowning a bit when it got to something like ten scoring shots to three, but as Leon said in the presser “We were lucky they kicked poorly”. And just as well we’re blessed with an excellent back line.

Looking at the stats, it was a remarkably even game, with St. Kilda shading us in handballs, clearances, tackles, contested possessions and particularly the inside 50s, winning them 60-48. The really big difference to the previous couple of weeks were the hit outs, much more even last night 37-36, with Hickey holding his own against Simpson and Lobb. But we were more efficient overall.

I really liked Brent Daniels game, he certainly added add some zip and energy to the team, same as Zac Langdon when he debuted earlier in the year. I get the feeling those two are going to provide some real spark come finals time.

Jeremy’s back next week. We’ve won four out of the five without him, so we need to find a way to a make sure everyone keeps clicking, which a good problem to have. And to think we’re in the position we are without Scully and Williams, with Kennedy and Buntine making successful returns, and Griffen, Corr and De Boer to come. It’s all coming together at the right time.

Now for a reality check. We would be very, very foolish to underestimate Carlton, who will have their tails up after defeating Gold Coast at Metricon last night (what does that say about the Swans ). Inaccuracy cost us dearly in Round 12 last year at the same venue and has been a concern all season, as we’ve kicked more behinds than goals. We seriously need to sharpen up.

But while they have some enterprising youngsters, we should have too much class and experience for the Blues, and there just won’t be any excuse for losing. We might be playing for something special in a few weeks’ time.

Go Giants.

 

[dlanod]

Looking at the stats, it was a remarkably even game, with St. Kilda shading us in handballs, clearances, tackles, contested possessions and particularly the inside 50s, winning them 60-48. The really big difference to the previous couple of weeks were the hit outs, much more even last night 37-36, with Hickey holding his own against Simpson and Lobb. But we were more efficient overall.

It's the catch 22 with Dawson. Against the teams who don't play a real ruck he's dominant. Against the teams who do, he's a liability and we saw Leon easing Lobb back in as a result. Carlton plays a real ruck but it shouldn't be the difference next week. It could be more painful against Jacobs the following week though.

We would be very, very foolish to underestimate Carlton, who will have their tails up after defeating Gold Coast at Metricon last night (what does that say about the Swans ).

Not much IMO - it's pretty common for bottom teams to relapse after a massive upset win.

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

with Hickey holding his own against Simpson and Lobb.

Yeah but he was beaten pointless by Cogs when facing him in the ruck.

BY COGS!

Laughed my head off when it happened pretty much right in front of me.

COGS!! Against Hickey!! And Cogs wins!!

 

[Colonial]

Cameron & MDB in for Simpson and Reid?

I was wrong about them going hard at the Saints. We played poorly and were lucky.

Hopefully Jezza will be fired up and MDB was great in NeAFL.

A big win coming I think.

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[Andre the Giant]

Could be controversial but I would give Whitfield a rest against Carlton. He is our MVP and could probably use a freshen up leading into the tough run home. We have a relatively healthy list and could probably bring De Boer in or even De Boer and Griffen.

Agree it’s a dangerous game but also feel players need to be managed. He has been phenomenal and if he is not winning the B&F this year there is something very wrong.

There is a bye coming so not essential but just feel there could be some merit to give him a week off.

 

[Orange Agent]

Really worry about the selection committe going back to Lobb as the sole ruck. Dawson has been a big influence in the past month and allowed Lobb to go back to his best role of floating up to the wings/defence pulling down a big mark when needed.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Really worry about the selection committe going back to Lobb as the sole ruck. Dawson has been a big influence in the past month and allowed Lobb to go back to his best role of floating up to the wings/defence pulling down a big mark when needed.

Have to disagree completely. I think we should celebrate what Dawsons done. He was a huge contributor to a critical win against Port.

Lobb is a class above as a ruck though, Dawson is limited. It's surprising to me how short peoples memories are sometimes. Lobb is working his way to fitness and Leon's been clear that's the intention.

Great that Dawson is on the list and we should keep him, as long as the club is prepared to play him if necessary, which seems to be the case.

 

[dlanod]

Could be controversial but I would give Whitfield a rest against Carlton. He is our MVP and could probably use a freshen up leading into the tough run home. We have a relatively healthy list and could probably bring De Boer in or even De Boer and Griffen.

Agree it’s a dangerous game but also feel players need to be managed. He has been phenomenal and if he is not winning the B&F this year there is something very wrong.

There is a bye coming so not essential but just feel there could be some merit to give him a week off.

Yep, controversial. Given his production is not dropping and he's regularly our best on ground, I can't see it. If he was looking a bit off the pace I might see it, but at the moment he's not showing any sign of slowing down.

 

[Giant Strides]

Some real selection dilemmas coming in this match with Jezza and MdB needing to come back in, and perhaps Griff ready to return also, with few players deserving to go out. Sam Reid has performed OK thus far this season (and occasionally quite well) but can't see him holding his spot when the more talented players are available. Similarly, I don't think Dan Lloyd returns as there's greater talent in guys like Langdon, Daniels & MdB. Can the team afford to have Greene, Langdon & Daniels - 3 quite small players - in the forward line together - we've done so out of necessity the last few games? Will we persist with Dawson if Lobb is considered ready to go - but who's our second ruck then? I like Matty Buntine, but he's still working his way back into top form and can he hold his spot when others are available? Dylan Shiel hasn't looked great the last few weeks, so do we give him a rest to freshen up for the weeks ahead? Personally I wouldn't rest Lachie, but understand there will be many different opinions.

I expect to have more changes than normal this week - after a winning game - and wouldn't be surprised if we did rest or 'manage' some players.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Some real selection dilemmas coming in this match with Jezza and MdB needing to come back in, and perhaps Griff ready to return also, with few players deserving to go out. Sam Reid has performed OK thus far this season (and occasionally quite well) but can't see him holding his spot when the more talented players are available. Similarly, I don't think Dan Lloyd returns as there's greater talent in guys like Langdon, Daniels & MdB. Can the team afford to have Greene, Langdon & Daniels - 3 quite small players - in the forward line together - we've done so out of necessity the last few games? Will we persist with Dawson if Lobb is considered ready to go - but who's our second ruck then? I like Matty Buntine, but he's still working his way back into top form and can he hold his spot when others are available? Dylan Shiel hasn't looked great the last few weeks, so do we give him a rest to freshen up for the weeks ahead? Personally I wouldn't rest Lachie, but understand there will be many different opinions.

I expect to have more changes than normal this week - after a winning game - and wouldn't be surprised if we did rest or 'manage' some players.

That's pretty much my view. Except resting Lachie Whitfield is the dumbest idea I've heard for quite a while. With Shiel is it just he's all had a few tough weeks? Our midfield is very even and it's natural that different players stand out at different times, depending on opposition matchups and tactics?
If he's carrying niggles and a rest would help absolutely we should.
I like the idea of Langdon and Daniel's staying and they fix a weakness we had at the pointy end last year. How we then fit De Boer in is a mystery, but we must I think.

 

[Danny88]

Really worry about the selection committe going back to Lobb as the sole ruck. Dawson has been a big influence in the past month and allowed Lobb to go back to his best role of floating up to the wings/defence pulling down a big mark when needed.

I disagree

Dawson had a good last quarter yesterday but the game was already won then. hickey pretty much gave him a bath up until that point. Dawson is a good tap ruckman, but didn’t impact play outside of that and when he goes up against someone big and competent,
Is regularly beaten


Thanks for the service but I’m backing Lobb in from here

 

[Danny88]

Big fat NO to resting anyone! Seriously in a team struggling for continuity all year, why would u rest players just as we are starting to get rolling? They get a week off in a month anyway.

 

[Teeso]

Have to disagree completely. I think we should celebrate what Dawsons done. He was a huge contributor to a critical win against Port.

Lobb is a class above as a ruck though, Dawson is limited. It's surprising to me how short peoples memories are sometimes. Lobb is working his way to fitness and Leon's been clear that's the intention.

Great that Dawson is on the list and we should keep him, as long as the club is prepared to play him if necessary, which seems to be the case.

I dont necessarily disagree Lobb is a better ruck, but the poor guy is made out of glass. I dont think its any coincidence the number of injuries he has collected since playing the number 1 ruck role this year (often patches of 3-4 weeks). Sure, the injuries arent always a direct result of rucking but the fact he is following the biggest bloke on the opposition team he often gets clobbered (punched, kicked, etc.) pretty hard and loses the height advantage he holds against KPDs. Being a ruckman is also work that requires him to move all over the ground, so he would be more fatigued which means sticking less contested marks as the match progresses and more injuries since he will be less inclined to brace properly on landing. I believe Lobb's ideal role is still as that down the line forward marker running out of the 50m arc since his timing is elite and arms are so long, rotating with himmelberg as the man marking/leading from the goal square. Of course, he is still an above average ruckman and wouldnt mind him doing some pinch hitting. Dawson being in the team gives Lobb confidence in his own game knowing he can play the same role he excelled in when Mummy used to be in the team, and provides Lobb with adequate shielding and cover from the brutality of a full game in ruck.

I do though understand you might be right that Leon's intention is to eventually play Lobb as full-time ruck, but I still think it will likely drastically shorten the amount of games he can play in a season as well as the overall longevity of his career.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

I dont necessarily disagree Lobb is a better ruck, but the poor guy is made out of glass. I dont think its any coincidence the number of injuries he has collected since playing the number 1 ruck role this year (often patches of 3-4 weeks). Sure, the injuries arent always a direct result of rucking but the fact he is following the biggest bloke on the opposition team he often gets clobbered (punched, kicked, etc.) pretty hard and loses the height advantage he holds against KPDs. Being a ruckman is also work that requires him to move all over the ground, so he would be more fatigued which means sticking less contested marks as the match progresses and more injuries since he will be less inclined to brace properly on landing. I believe Lobb's ideal role is still as that down the line forward marker running out of the 50m arc since his timing is elite and arms are so long, rotating with himmelberg as the man marking/leading from the goal square. Of course, he is still an above average ruckman and wouldnt mind him doing some pinch hitting. Dawson being in the team gives Lobb confidence in his own game knowing he can play the same role he excelled in when Mummy used to be in the team, and provides Lobb with adequate shielding and cover from the brutality of a full game in ruck.

I do though understand you might be right that Leon's intention is to eventually play Lobb as full-time ruck, but I still think it will likely drastically shorten the amount of games he can play in a season as well as the overall longevity of his career.

Ruck is a tough job with constant hard collisions. Rory has been building up his body for years to take on the job though.
In my view we dont play him elsewhere for that reason.

At full fitness a rucks job is also to take contested mark's around the ground and drift forward to kick goals.

He's mostly played as a forward/relieving ruck I get. Last year he was constantly being sent in to rescue Mummy, more and more as the year went on. Better to lead with him at the taps than be constantly sending him in to rescue Dawson this year in my view. We need to get on the front foot in finals, and now is the time to try stabilise the structures we want at the end of the year I think.

I dont know if Dawson plays this week, I suspect not.

 

[Simmofreo]

West coast going to go down. Unfortunately that draw is looking like it is going to come and bite us

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[Danny88]

I dont necessarily disagree Lobb is a better ruck, but the poor guy is made out of glass. I dont think its any coincidence the number of injuries he has collected since playing the number 1 ruck role this year (often patches of 3-4 weeks). Sure, the injuries arent always a direct result of rucking but the fact he is following the biggest bloke on the opposition team he often gets clobbered (punched, kicked, etc.) pretty hard and loses the height advantage he holds against KPDs. Being a ruckman is also work that requires him to move all over the ground, so he would be more fatigued which means sticking less contested marks as the match progresses and more injuries since he will be less inclined to brace properly on landing. I believe Lobb's ideal role is still as that down the line forward marker running out of the 50m arc since his timing is elite and arms are so long, rotating with himmelberg as the man marking/leading from the goal square. Of course, he is still an above average ruckman and wouldnt mind him doing some pinch hitting. Dawson being in the team gives Lobb confidence in his own game knowing he can play the same role he excelled in when Mummy used to be in the team, and provides Lobb with adequate shielding and cover from the brutality of a full game in ruck.

I do though understand you might be right that Leon's intention is to eventually play Lobb as full-time ruck, but I still think it will likely drastically shorten the amount of games he can play in a season as well as the overall longevity of his career.

So do u see Cameron Lobb and HH in the same forward line?

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

West coast going to go down. Unfortunately that draw is looking like it is going to come and bite us

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Yeah it keeps North a threat. Friday night actually kept the Bombers in it as well. I was a bit surprised people thought the Swans loss was good for us. They're still in it 2 points behind us.

 

[Orange Agent]

I disagree

Dawson had a good last quarter yesterday but the game was already won then. hickey pretty much gave him a bath up until that point. Dawson is a good tap ruckman, but didn’t impact play outside of that and when he goes up against someone big and competent,
Is regularly beaten


Thanks for the service but I’m backing Lobb in from here

For me it's not a question of who is the best ruckman, it's where Lobb is best positioned for the benefit of the team. I still think his role last year when Mumford was still playing was to float around the ground, if we needed to slow the game he could fill holes in defence and mark every high ball that came in, if we needed a goal he went deep fwd, or he could push to the wings to clear a zone. He was one of the hardest guys in the league for opposition sides to match up on, he has nowhere near that effect whilst in the ruck. I would bet no coach in the league would spend 2 mins about how to tactically negate him as a ruckman verses what role he was playing most of last year.

 

[Orange Agent]

So do u see Cameron Lobb and HH in the same forward line?

Yep. No Patton changes it completely.

 

[Teeso]

So do u see Cameron Lobb and HH in the same forward line?

Not necessarily always in the forward 50 at the same time since more often than not Lobb will be down the line outside the 50 trying to take contested marks when we transition out from defence. He then distributes to say a Kelly/Whitfield before running forward to try and make a contest for the smaller guys. Can make it hard to mark since the ball is often on top of his head and he cant run onto the ball as much as he would like. Probably another reason why he doesnt kick as many goals but that is not his primary role. Leaves us with Cameron, Himmelberg and Greene as marking targets with Daniels, Langdon, DeBoer/Griffen and our mids to chase the ground ball.

But yes, on the occasion where all 3 tall forwards are in our forward 50, it would be reminiscent of our 2016 where we had Cameron, Patton and Lobb all together which seemed to work pretty well. Of course, it would mean lots of work would need to go into leading into different parts of the ground otherwise they would just neutralise each other. A 207cm forward whose strength is contested marking is very hard for a probably 195cm KPD to defend. If Lobb lead at the ball like Ben Brown, he would be a nightmare. Same could be said for HH even despite the height deficit. At this point though, I do prefer what Himmelberg offers over Patton since whilst his frame isnt as big, he is still a great contested mark and good one-on-one, and he brings an upgrade in mobility and defensive pressure which will be invaluable if we can make it deep into September.

The other disadvantage of having Lobb as sole ruck is if he does go down early in the game, we have no other genuine ruck. We can put players like Himmelberg, Tomlinson or Ward there but they dont really offer much (perhaps we try Coniglio since he did beat Hickey in the 1 ruck contest!) since they are purely there as the extra mid rather than providing a contest in the air. Other teams (Richmond, Bulldogs, etc.) were able to combat this by playing really close to their opposition and disposing quickly at ground level, but we dont particularly like manning up as much as we are more a team that focuses on our own strengths and this can make it hard when we come up against elite opposition ruckman. When we get forced to play a close and tight brand of footy which we arent used to, we panic and handball too much to the closest player (who often has someone breathing down their neck) and can forget to distribute it to the free man on the outside.

Of course that is just my thoughts and I have no doubt Leon knows better than me and is looking to put Lobb into a full-time ruck role. I just dont think his frame and physicality is suited to playing that role yet and he would offer more as a permanent forward pinch-hitting in the ruck.

 

[Teeso]

For me it's not a question of who is the best ruckman, it's where Lobb is best positioned for the benefit of the team. I still think his role last year when Mumford was still playing was to float around the ground, if we needed to slow the game he could fill holes in defence and mark every high ball that came in, if we needed a goal he went deep fwd, or he could push to the wings to clear a zone. He was one of the hardest guys in the league for opposition sides to match up on, he has nowhere near that effect whilst in the ruck. I would bet no coach in the league would spend 2 mins about how to tactically negate him as a ruckman verses what role he was playing most of last year.

My thoughts precisely.

 

[dlanod]

West coast going to go down. Unfortunately that draw is looking like it is going to come and bite us

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Nah because our percentage is worse than six of the other eight teams in the top half of the ladder, the extra two points would just see us in the same position in about 90% of final ladder projections.

It's the Essendon loss which hurts.

 

[Andre the Giant]

That's pretty much my view. Except resting Lachie Whitfield is the dumbest idea I've heard for quite a while. With Shiel is it just he's all had a few tough weeks? Our midfield is very even and it's natural that different players stand out at different times, depending on opposition matchups and tactics?
If he's carrying niggles and a rest would help absolutely we should.
I like the idea of Langdon and Daniel's staying and they fix a weakness we had at the pointy end last year. How we then fit De Boer in is a mystery, but we must I think.

Is it dumber than trading Sam Taylor for a back up ruckman LOL. That thought process requires “special” abilities.

Anyways...we are playing Carlton which out of our remaining games probably presents an opportunity to rest someone, but also understand we are not really a ruthless team and haven’t put anyone away.

Hopefully the boys turn up as we have been presented a super opportunity with some of the results around us.

Shiel has been down for a while. Not sure what is up there.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Is it dumber than trading Sam Taylor for a back up ruckman LOL. That thought process requires “special” abilities.

Anyways...we are playing Carlton which out of our remaining games probably presents an opportunity to rest someone, but also understand we are not really a ruthless team and haven’t put anyone away.

Hopefully the boys turn up as we have been presented a super opportunity with some of the results around us.

Shiel has been down for a while. Not sure what is up there.

Your lying
But that's not surprising.
The first person to mock, and the first person to post rubbish, it's a really bad mix.

 

[Colonial]

Is it dumber than trading Sam Taylor for a back up ruckman LOL. That thought process requires “special” abilities.

Anyways...we are playing Carlton which out of our remaining games probably presents an opportunity to rest someone, but also understand we are not really a ruthless team and haven’t put anyone away.

Hopefully the boys turn up as we have been presented a super opportunity with some of the results around us.

Shiel has been down for a while. Not sure what is up there.

If we were going to do it the Blues would be a good time to rest 1 or 2.

We do have the bye after the next few weeks so that'll help as well.

Jezza should be fired up and a returning MDB and possibly Griff should see us run away with it.

As for Taylor lol. Yeah we wont be moving him on.

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