Play Nice The 'all things Carlton' mega-thread

[cfc4life]

Couple of things here:

Marchbank is best 22 for us, and his trade was separate to the Tuohy deal.

Both Carlton, the Pies and North have all picked up handy players for basically nothing, yet Carlton get smashed from pillar to post for picking up 'GWS rejects'.

I'm not saying it was a master stroke, but that we get way to much criticism for the decisions. People outside the club don't take into account each move and how it fits into the overall list strategy.

 

[Rich01]

Couple of things here:

Marchbank is best 22 for us, and his trade was separate to the Tuohy deal.

Hmm... I’d get howled down if I mentioned that the trade for Touhy was a six pick upgrade in the teens and Billy Smedts.

What did you pay for Marchbank?


Both Carlton, the Pies and North have all picked up handy players for basically nothing, yet Carlton get smashed from pillar to post for picking up 'GWS rejects'.

That’s because they picked up a handful of players who have been serviceable as part of their strategy and don’t call them out as the backbone of their team. They also haven’t recruited basically a team of them over three years like Carlton has.

I'm not saying it was a master stroke, but that we get way to much criticism for the decisions. People outside the club don't take into account each move and how it fits into the overall list strategy.

There needs to be accountability on he list and the development of young players. Especially where Carlton is currently at. If they keep their head in the sand and say everything’s fine they will be in the same position in five years as now.

 

[Rusty_lucas]

Yes I did say I had the benefit of hindsight. However when you get it so wrong (4, maybe 5 out of 18), you need to look at what’s available. This is a hit rate of less than 25%. Throw in your four rookies from 2015 and 2016 drafts that will be delisted this year and it’s less than 20%.

It’s not that sos has to be held to a higher standard than any recruiter, but a hit rate like that is most likely the lowest of all AFL clubs.

It’s not good enough for a club that needs to make the most of every pick.

That’s not to mention his top end drafting. Question marks over the development of Weitering, McKay, Cuningham (still believe Dunkley was the pick here), Silvagni and SPS.
Though you could say he can’t be to blame for the development of these guys once they come into the club.
But someone should be asking the question as to why they aren’t progressing and what’s been done about it.

So what you are saying is that SOS has acquitted himself as well as most other recruiters with the players he has targeted. (Coll and Nth were your examples) and his list stacks up as well.

There is no argument that the DFA and mature players couldnt have been better. Unfortunately he has not hit as often as carlton would have liked on thjose but they ultimately cost carlton nothing. You can make an argument that carlton should have just kept their own list cloggers but that wouldnt have helped them anyway and maybe those guys didnt show the leadership ability that some of the guys that have bene picked up by SOS.

Ultimately SOS will eventually be judged on the core of young draft picks that carlton have picked up over the last 3 years and this upcoming draft along with the free agents he can bring in to complement them over the next couple years.

So far i think most of his high end draft have shown very good signs at AFL level...they just need a little more time and a couple pre seasons

 

[cfc4life]

[QUOTE="Rich01, post: 56842496, member: 12897"
Couple of things here:

Marchbank is best 22 for us, and his trade was separate to the Tuohy deal.

Hmm... I’d get howled down if I mentioned that the trade for Touhy was a six pick upgrade in the teens and Billy Smedts.

What did you pay for Marchbank?


Both Carlton, the Pies and North have all picked up handy players for basically nothing, yet Carlton get smashed from pillar to post for picking up 'GWS rejects'.

That’s because they picked up a handful of players who have been serviceable as part of their strategy and don’t call them out as the backbone of their team. They also haven’t recruited basically a team of them over three years like Carlton has.

I'm not saying it was a master stroke, but that we get way to much criticism for the decisions. People outside the club don't take into account each move and how it fits into the overall list strategy.

There needs to be accountability on he list and the development of young players. Especially where Carlton is currently at. If they keep their head in the sand and say everything’s fine they will be in the same position in five years as now.

][/QUOTE]

We picked up Marchbank, Pickett and a second round pick for pick 45, pick 58(Matt De Boer) and Geelong's first rounder(which turned into Zac Bailey at the Lions)

Marchbank and Pickett are both best 22. This trade is a win.

We have brought in 31 players since the 2015 draft, after Malthouse and co destroyed our list with horrible recruiting.

Of those 31 players, 3 are no longer at the club (Palmer, Smedts and Sumner).

Of the 28 still at the club, I would say 11 are best 22. That's a pretty good strike rate.

Of those 11 who are best 22, five would walk straight into any other team's best 22 (Curnow, Fisher, Kennedy, Weitering, Marchbank)

In a period of dramatic list overhaul, the club has chosen some players to assist in protecting the young bodies while also giving depth. To come out (so far) with a more than a handful of good to very good players to future superstars(Curnow) is a pretty good result in my opinion.

 

[Malifice]

North traded their first round pick for Anderson. So your argument is already flawed.

No it was 15 for 33 and 39.

No. It was [Jed Anderson and picks 38 and 40] from the Hawks, in exchange for Norths [Picks 15 and 55]

The Hawks used pick 15 on Burton.

Who did you give up for Marchbank? Tuohy. Best 22 for the Cats.

Tuohy is 28 years old and plays in a spot we have covered (Docherty, Simpson, Byrne, Williamson).

In exchange we got Marchbank (a defender 7 years younger than Zach) and Pickett.

Other clubs have brought in players on the cheap like SOS has.

Such as?

Marchbank, Plowman, Pickett and Kennedy are all 1st round draftees that SOS aquired for a combined total of 3 x 2nd rounders.

3 x second rounders for 3 x best 22 players, and maybe 4 (Pickett).

Who's done better than that?

 

[Rich01]

We picked up Marchbank, Pickett and a second round pick for pick 45, pick 58(Matt De Boer) and Geelong's first rounder(which turned into Zac Bailey at the Lions)

Marchbank and Pickett are both best 22. This trade is a win.

Ok cool.
So your outs read like this...

Tuohy, 45, 58

And your ins read like this...

Marchbank, Pickett, Smedts, Pick 35.

Some would also say Palmer was required to go to Carlton for this to happen but we will leave him out of this equation to avoid any further confusion.

Taking the SOS slight of hand out of it, the draft picks roughly cancel each other out and Smedts is gone.

So pretty much Marchbank and Pickett cost you Touhy. Maybe a slight pick upgrade in your favour in the third round.

I don’t see a lopsided trade either way, but no doubt Tuohy was required to get Marchbank to Carlton.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

That’s not to mention his top end drafting. Question marks over the development of Weitering, McKay, Cuningham (still believe Dunkley was the pick here), Silvagni and SPS.
Though you could say he can’t be to blame for the development of these guys once they come into the club.
But someone should be asking the question as to why they aren’t progressing and what’s been done about it.

Weitering and Cuningham I agree with the concerns, although I think Weitering will be fine and has already proven he can be very good/elite at AFL level. He’s only a 3rd year KPP. Cuningham I’m not a huge fan of but he can become a solid contributor.

McKay averages 2 goals a game at 20 years old in the worst side in the comp, and has been injured more than he’s actually played. Will be fine.

Silvagni is exceeding expectations for a 4th rounder playing tall again in the botton side. Has his limitations.

SPS I can see where you’re coming from but has shown he can play elite football already. Is only a 2nd year player so has time, I maintain he’s more of an icing player than a cake player as he plays better when the group does.

I notice you didn’t mention SOS’ astute trading and drafting that got us a superstar in Curnow, or the steal that was Fisher at 26. Williamson also cemented his spot in the best 22 at 19 from the 4th round and didn’t look out of place. Dow and O’Brien progressing perfectly fine.

If SOS surrounds these boys with a few decent bigger bodies I think we’ll be singing their praises again. It’s no surprise Brisbanes youth is playing well with Zorko, Rich, Beams, Robinson, Martin and Hodge all playing great footy. Reserve your judgement on the young boys just yet.

 

[cfc4life]

Ok cool.
So your outs read like this...

Tuohy, 45, 58

And your ins read like this...

Marchbank, Pickett, Smedts, Pick 35.

Some would also say Palmer was required to go to Carlton for this to happen but we will leave him out of this equation to avoid any further confusion.

Taking the SOS slight of hand out of it, the draft picks roughly cancel each other out and Smedts is gone.

So pretty much Marchbank and Pickett cost you Touhy. Maybe a slight pick upgrade in your favour in the third round.

I don’t see a lopsided trade either way, but no doubt Tuohy was required to get Marchbank to Carlton.

Geelong got a good rebounding defender, which we had a surplus of. Carlton get two young players who were first rounders and are beginning to come into their own.

Also noticed a lack of response to my further points regarding the list management and that the mass influx of players worked out alright.

 

[Rich01]

Such as?

Marchbank, Plowman, Pickett and Kennedy are all 1st round draftees that SOS aquired for a combined total of 3 x 2nd rounders.

3 x second rounders for 3 x best 22 players, and maybe 4 (Pickett).

Who's done better than that?

Marley Williams, Billy Hartung and Paul Ahern for picks no higher than late 60’s.
Jed Anderson for 15 and a couple of picks in the 30s back. Alex Morgan for free.

Pick 15 and 55 for two picks in the 30s, 4 x best 22, and potentially 5 (Morgan).

And they didn’t give up a guy like Tuohy to get it done.

They pretty much got all those guys for close to nothing.

 

[SickQwon]

I think what separates Carlton supporter's views from opposition supporters is that a blueprint of the rebuild had been mapped out to the members in great detail for years, and to date, the football club has achieved everything it has set out to do by this point in the rebuild.

The transparency and the communication between the club and its members have regained a lot of the trust that was understandably lost after the Malthouse era. It's universally understood that from the club's view, it's going to take time and patience and the supporters have accepted that because Carlton are not going to get everything right but, no one ever has. But you can sense the urgency and endeavor to get back to the top even though the ladder doesn't reflect that.

The club has already stated that the club at this point they don't want to be defined by wins or loses (Bolts cliche, i know) but by pressure. This isn't condoning what some have considered 'a losing culture' but actually a competitive one.
This is the message that has caused a stir among the fans. There is virtually no perceived pressure present at all and this is ultimately why we deserve to be on the bottom of the ladder. Bolton must rectify this as it has stagnated the development of key players.

The external noise coming from opposition or media isn't going to rattle the club or cause any reactionary delistings or trades and I wouldn't doubt if the noise was completely ignored internally because like I said the message has been sent to the members that they are sticking to the plan (obviously with improvisational exceptions eg. Gibbs). and they will continue to follow it without the temptation of any quick fixes or priority picks.

I can easily see why opposition fans are not patient and Carlton fans are. They are not willing to put in the hard yards like us because it doesn't matter to them.

 

[cfc4life]

Marley Williams, Billy Hartung and Paul Ahern for picks no higher than late 60’s.
Jed Anderson for 15 and a couple of picks in the 30s back. Alex Morgan for free.

Pick 15 and 55 for two picks in the 30s, 4 x best 22, and potentially 5 (Morgan).

And they didn’t give up a guy like Tuohy to get it done.

They pretty much got all those guys for close to nothing.

Nevermind the fact that Billy Hartung was already delisted and you gave up the chance at Ryan Burton for Anderson.

Both teams have done well in picking up role players for not much, it's the piling on of the media/opposition supporters in regards to Carlton's recruiting that is the issue.

 

[Rich01]

Also noticed a lack of response to my further points regarding the list management and that the mass influx of players worked out alright.

Has it really?
You’ve brought in 18 retreads of which 4 should be long term players and another one in Pickett may.

You’ve brought in 4 rookies in 2015 and 2016 (too early for 2017) that will be delisted at the end of the year.

Top picks Weitering, Cuningham, Mackay and SPS haven’t developed as expected.

Not sure it’s working out alright, but to each their own assessment of what’s working for you.

 

[Rich01]

Nevermind the fact that Billy Hartung was already delisted and you gave up the chance at Ryan Burton for Anderson.

Both teams have done well in picking up role players for not much, it's the piling on of the media/opposition supporters in regards to Carlton's recruiting that is the issue.

Yeah it’s sliding doors with the draft picks isn’t it? I’m sure North rates Jed and are aware in part it cost them a shot at Ryan Burton.

You could say with the draft pick you got for Touhy you could have used it on Ed Richards who SOS was very close to calling out at pick 10 but went with LOB instead. But they rated Marchbank and traded for him.

Watching Ed play for the dogs, I can see why SOS rated him so highly. Apparently he was 45 mins late to a pre draft meeting with SOS and that’s what turned him off him for pick 10.

 

[cfc4life]

Has it really?
You’ve brought in 18 retreads of which 4 should be long term players and another one in Pickett may.

You’ve brought in 4 rookies in 2015 and 2016 (too early for 2017) that will be delisted at the end of the year.

Top picks Weitering, Cuningham, Mackay and SPS haven’t developed as expected.

Not sure it’s working out alright, but to each their own assessment of what’s working for you.

Are you expecting the club to pluck 22 10 year players out of thin air? The average career length for an AFL player is six years.

As I mentioned in a previous post, players like O'Shea, Mullett and Lobbe were brought in to be depth players and support the young bodies. It's called rebuilding from ground zero. If you don't have those experienced bodies you end up like Melbourne circa 2013.

SPS is in his second year so it's ridiculous to say he has met expectations.

Weitering had form and confidence issues, but he's still on track.

McKay was a bottom ager when he was drafted and missed his entire first season with a debilitating back injury.

Cuningham has struggled with injury as well.

I'd also like to see a club that has been 100% with their rookie picks, not to mention our success with draft steals in Fisher and Williamson in recent years.

 

[SickQwon]

Yeah it’s sliding doors with the draft picks isn’t it? I’m sure North rates Jed and are aware in part it cost them a shot at Ryan Burton.

You could say with the draft pick you got for Touhy you could have used it on Ed Richards who SOS was very close to calling out at pick 10 but went with LOB instead. But they rated Marchbank and traded for him

Theres a story on the draft board about SOS readily willing to pick up Richards at pick 10 however Richards was 45 minutes late for his interview at Carlton and apparently left a really bad impression. Wasn't his fault, car broke down or something. Glad he's doing well at the doggies.

That being said LOB trained with Carlton before he was drafted and had a connection with the club and it was known for a long time that we'd take him at 10.

 

[Great8]

I think what separates Carlton supporter's views from opposition supporters is that a blueprint of the rebuild had been mapped out to the members in great detail for years, and to date, the football club has achieved everything it has set out to do by this point in the rebuild.

The transparency and the communication between the club and its members have regained a lot of the trust that was understandably lost after the Malthouse era. It's universally understood that from the club's view, it's going to take time and patience and the supporters have accepted that because Carlton are not going to get everything right but, no one ever has. But you can sense the urgency and endeavor to get back to the top even though the ladder doesn't reflect that.

The club has already stated that the club at this point they don't want to be defined by wins or loses (Bolts cliche, i know) but by pressure. This isn't condoning what some have considered 'a losing culture' but actually a competitive one.
This is the message that has caused a stir among the fans. There is virtually no perceived pressure present at all and this is ultimately why we deserve to be on the bottom of the ladder. Bolton must rectify this as it has stagnated the development of key players.

The external noise coming from opposition or media isn't going to rattle the club or cause any reactionary delistings or trades and I wouldn't doubt if the noise was completely ignored internally because like I said the message has been sent to the members that they are sticking to the plan (obviously with improvisational exceptions eg. Gibbs). and they will continue to follow it without the temptation of any quick fixes or priority picks.

I can easily see why opposition fans are not patient and Carlton fans are. They are not willing to put in the hard yards like us because it doesn't matter to them.

How long will the club and it’s fans stay patient for?
What if in 5-10 years time you are still in the same predicament as now?
FA has made it a little harder in one respect too as most kids these days seek instant gratification and don’t want to do the hard yards or go through the tough years. Retaining any of the new draftees over the next few years is the hardest part for any struggling team

 

[Malifice]

Marley Williams, Billy Hartung and Paul Ahern for picks no higher than late 60’s.
Jed Anderson for 15 and a couple of picks in the 30s back. Alex Morgan for free.

They pretty much got all those guys for close to nothing.

I'd take Marxhbank, Kennedy, Plowman and Pickett over that bunch personally.

And it wasn't close to nothing. There was a 1st round pick there (pick 15) that was ultimately used on Burton.

 

[Rusty_lucas]

Yeah it’s sliding doors with the draft picks isn’t it? I’m sure North rates Jed and are aware in part it cost them a shot at Ryan Burton.

You could say with the draft pick you got for Touhy you could have used it on Ed Richards who SOS was very close to calling out at pick 10 but went with LOB instead. But they rated Marchbank and traded for him.

Watching Ed play for the dogs, I can see why SOS rated him so highly. Apparently he was 45 mins late to a pre draft meeting with SOS and that’s what turned him off him for pick 10.

thats not correct because ed richards was not that in that draft. I believe GWS used that pick along with other picks to match a bid for setterfield

 

[SickQwon]

How long will the club and it’s fans stay patient for?
What if in 5-10 years time you are still in the same predicament as now?
FA has made it a little harder in one respect too as most kids these days seek instant gratification and don’t want to do the hard yards or go through the tough years. Retaining any of the new draftees over the next few years is the hardest part for any struggling team

Every chance this could happen, personally willing to cop the losses for one more year. After that you'd want to start competing. You're right in the fact that supporters will only stay quiet for so long before heads start rolling.

I think the general consensus for a rebuild is 5 years? What do you think?

 

[Rusty_lucas]

Has it really?
You’ve brought in 18 retreads of which 4 should be long term players and another one in Pickett may.

You’ve brought in 4 rookies in 2015 and 2016 (too early for 2017) that will be delisted at the end of the year.

Top picks Weitering, Cuningham, Mackay and SPS haven’t developed as expected.

Not sure it’s working out alright, but to each their own assessment of what’s working for you.

obviously your opinion but i think all of those players bar cunningham have shown plenty at AFL level

 

[Leeda]

cowering behind the battlements, I see the Blues as heading into a period of diving into blue water, with a sharp and shiny
"end of the road' tail and relegating themselves to minor shyt and lack of spirit...

these words are my own and not those of the HFC...

 

[Magpie Monopoly]

Don't know if it has been mentioned, but haven't scored 100 points for 2 years now!

To put that into perspective, when the Bombers had their whole team banned, they still managed to put up 100 points that year..................

 

[Great8]

Every chance this could happen, personally willing to cop the losses for one more year. After that you'd want to start competing. You're right in the fact that supporters will only stay quiet for so long before heads start rolling.

I think the general consensus for a rebuild is 5 years? What do you think?

I once thought that but I think FA and players being able to get out of contracts easily has pushed that out a year or so. I’m a huge advocate for FA and freedom of movement for players but the one negative aspect is that it is designed to keep the good sides at the top and the battlers down the bottom. Once you are a battler it in this current climate it’s a harder climb to get back up IMO.
Don’t take this the wrong way but you are in year 2 or 3 of your rebuild and I honestly don’t see you guys being competitive for another 2-3 years at absolute best

 

[demon21]

don't think we need to worry about Car they have a great Young list is what i heard today.

 

[Malifice]

Don't know if it has been mentioned, but haven't scored 100 points for 2 years now!

To put that into perspective, when the Bombers had their whole team banned, they still managed to put up 100 points that year..................

GWS managed it 4 games into their second season (and came close in year 1 once or twice).