2019 NBA Offseason Thread - Free Agency starts 6 p.m. ET on June 30

[Scotland]

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. You say would Harden be happy being guarded off the ball for potential catch and shoots, I pointed out in doing so it benefits Houston which means it's unlikely to be an option defense's use. OKC didn't have the shooters consistently to make it effecient, Simmons and Lowe talk about it on their latest podcast. Also if you guard him hard and he gets the ball he won't be complaining, there's a reason defense's play in unique ways so they're not right up on him.

A lot of things could benefit Houston. Like Harden playing off ball when they had a HOF PG on the roster. Maybe it's a masterstroke and Houston win the Western Conference. I'm not holding my breath until I see them play a different system. They had a good roster without CP3 and they had a good roster without Russell. They could put a 50% 3 point shooter in the corner and it wouldn't matter because you know you only have to worry about them 1 in every few plays.

Teams guard him the way they do because he is playing for fouls on every shot. The sooner the refs stop calling fouls on his leg kicks the better. You defend differently against a guy who has the ball for 20 seconds compared to a guy running around the arc for a catch and release shot. Teams defend Steph and Klay off ball to try and stop them getting the ball in the first place. That's not what Harden has been up against most of the time. He's capable sure but he needs to adapt.

Harden has all the tools to be a great PG or SG but was ordinary for the small amount of time CP3 controlled the offence. I don't know why people think that he'll suddenly turn into Klay Thompson because Westbrook is there.

 

[fidstar]

Harden has all the tools to be a great PG or SG but was ordinary for the small amount of time CP3 controlled the offence. I don't know why people think that he'll suddenly turn into Klay Thompson because Westbrook is there.

So it's a failure if Harden isn't as good as probably the greatest catch and shoot player of all time.

Okay...

 

[Richard Cranium]

It's part of this NBA culture where every left handed kid within 10 minutes of being in the NBA is told "he should switch hands for shooting".

Has this happened to anyone other than Simmons?

 

[Gak Attack]

Has this happened to anyone other than Simmons?

Dwert was originally a lefty.

Change did not help.

 

[DangerSloane]

Dwert was originally a lefty.

Change did not help.

He could've shot as well without any fingers.

 

[Bostonian]

Has this happened to anyone other than Simmons?

Tristan Thompson.

 

[fidstar]

3 is now everyone.

 

[Richard Cranium]

Tristan Thompson.

So no.

 

[Scotland]

So it's a failure if Harden isn't as good as probably the greatest catch and shoot player of all time.

Okay...

It's a failure if you give up $40m a year and a heap of assets to get two guys back to back that don't complement your roster and system. Getting Westbrook via Paul cost the Rockets a lot. Lou Williams, Montrezl Harrell and Patrick Beverley are all key players at the Clippers who just added Paul George and Kawhi Leonard.

Klay isn't a former MVP nor has he been in the top 3 the last 3 seasons. If he played Harden's role at Houston I doubt he would do it as well. He's not as explosive and physical but he doesn't need to be in the way he is used at GS. What he has done is proven that as the 2nd or 3rd option on a team he can still contribute at both ends. He doesn't need the ball. Russell has shown that if you want him to play Russell-ball he'll get you 30-10-10 no worries and if you want him to play as a more conventional PG with someone else as your #1 scorer he'll get you 20-10-10 no worries. Harden has shown he can play Harden-ball and hit Jordan levels of scoring.

The school of thought seems to be that Westbrook will take over as PG and Harden will play SG. You could split that 50/50 or make Russell the SG but that makes no sense. I get they did it to get Paul's contract off the books but I don't think making Harden play a role he didn't want to play last year is the answer.

 

[DangerSloane]

Tristan Thompson.

So has it happened to anyone who could actually shoot to begin with?

So far Simmons, Dwight and Thompson. None of which could shoot with their left anyway

 

[Bostonian]

So has it happened to anyone who could actually shoot to begin with?

So far Simmons, Dwight and Thompson. None of which could shoot with their left anyway

When right handers can't shoot for s**t they never say "they should shoot left handed".

And for your information, it starts much younger, forcing left handed kids to do s**t right handed has and is still a thing.

 

[DangerSloane]

When right handers can't shoot for s**t they never say "they should shoot left handed".

And for your information, it starts much younger, forcing left handed kids to do s**t right handed has and is still a thing.

I'm sure there is the odd rubbish right hand shooter that they have attempted to change.

Your other stuff is true and archaic.
I had the same thing when I was a kid (mainly left handed).

 

[Bostonian]

I'm sure there is the odd rubbish right hand shooter that they have attempted to change.

Your other stuff is true and archaic.
I had the same thing when I was a kid (mainly left handed).

Having played basketball since I was 7 or 8 I'd had several coaches try to get me shooting right handed. In the end I just became un-coachable.

I've seen coaches still trying to do it in recent times to kids.

 

[Richard Cranium]

Having played basketball since I was 7 or 8 I'd had several coaches try to get me shooting right handed. In the end I just became un-coachable.

I've seen coaches still trying to do it in recent times to kids.

Shouldn't have had such an ugly J, brah.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Dan Tony will have to create some plays.

 

[DangerSloane]

Having played basketball since I was 7 or 8 I'd had several coaches try to get me shooting right handed. In the end I just became un-coachable.

I've seen coaches still trying to do it in recent times to kids.

Do you think its because its easier to teach them the same way they do it?

Not that its right, but seems like a possible reason.

I remember dad trying to teach me to tie a tie. Me doing it left handed made it almost impossible for me to learn, even though it was a simple action.

 

[Bostonian]

Shouldn't have had such an ugly J, brah.

Don't need a jump shot when you're left handed.

Right handers are such dumb *s they get torched so easily when you drive on them.

Teach a left handed kid tear drops floaters and hook shots and he'll rack up points.

 

[Bostonian]

Do you think its because its easier to teach them the same way they do it?

Not that its right, but seems like a possible reason.

I remember dad trying to teach me to tie a tie. Me doing it left handed made it almost impossible for me to learn, even though it was a simple action.

It's 100% because the vast majority of coaches are right handed and don't want to waste time on a left handed kid being coached left handed. They expect a small kid to get their head around doing something the opposite of what is being taught. Only because the coach often can't do it left handed.

 

[sherrif]

Westbrook and Harden are both all time stat padders.

Westbrook has averaged a triple double for 3 seasons in a row and his team hasn't made it out of the first round of the playoffs. Without Durant they were never a shot regardless of who the other pieces were.

The Rockets have been better with Harden in the top 3 in MVP voting each year but have never made past the Warriors with or without Chris Paul, even with Durant out this year.

Last year Harden took 1028 3 point shots, Westbrook 411. Westbrook took 1062 2 point shots, Harden 881. Harden took 858 free throws, Westbrook 451. They were also #1 (Westbrook, 784) and #5 Harden (586) for assists. Neither are particularly good shooters. They score a lot because they shoot a lot, but they aren't top 50 for field goal or three point shooting %. If you are a 37% 3 point shooter and put up 13 a game you are going to score 4.8 of them on average. It's a 48 minute game of 24 second plays. How do you have two guys shooting it 40+ times a game (excluding 20+ free throws) and maintain a team offence?

I don't see it working. You could argue that either or both are better than Paul George or Kawhi Leonard or Steph or Klay if it made you feel good, but I would pick one of Harden/Westbrook and one of any of those other guys as a combo compared to Harden + Westbrook together. George played off Westbrook this season and scored 28 a game. Westbrook can't do that, he's not a good enough shooter. Harden maybe could, but he'd have to give up control of the ball and his off ball running this year was rubbish. If he's not going to let Chris Paul call the shots then what makes Westbrook special? It's exciting to have two explosive, high scoring guards on one team and it won't be easy to defend but I do think having both takes away from each of them given how they play.

This is the same over simplistic moronic argument from the laziest of nba comentators. Actually, I cant see how the combination wont simply be a better version of how they played together in 2011 as Harden has improved out of sight since then. You're talking crap if you think Harden cant play off ball. He's doesnt it a heap with Paul spending a lot of time with the ball in hand. Pretty simply the Rockets need Westbrook to drive and shoot mid range jumpers. They dont need him to shoot threes. They need more scoring in the paint and Westbrooks great at that. Simply put, all he has to do is have the ball as much as Paul did, but instead of launching from range he drives and dishes or launches mid range jump shot. Harden's dynamic when left open for three. Im not sure you've watched the rockets much if you dont think he can play off ball. Key to the Rockets is how much support they get for the duo. Iggy's tipped to sign with them (will require a trade) and they're one of the teams considering JR Smith who's now an unrestricted free agent.

 

[Dez!]

How should he play then to make it look "pretty"?

I never said he had to play "pretty", I said his game is ugly and it is but it's also effective.

You're really making no point.

 

[sherrif]

It's a failure if you give up $40m a year and a heap of assets to get two guys back to back that don't complement your roster and system. Getting Westbrook via Paul cost the Rockets a lot. Lou Williams, Montrezl Harrell and Patrick Beverley are all key players at the Clippers who just added Paul George and Kawhi Leonard.

Klay isn't a former MVP nor has he been in the top 3 the last 3 seasons. If he played Harden's role at Houston I doubt he would do it as well. He's not as explosive and physical but he doesn't need to be in the way he is used at GS. What he has done is proven that as the 2nd or 3rd option on a team he can still contribute at both ends. He doesn't need the ball. Russell has shown that if you want him to play Russell-ball he'll get you 30-10-10 no worries and if you want him to play as a more conventional PG with someone else as your #1 scorer he'll get you 20-10-10 no worries. Harden has shown he can play Harden-ball and hit Jordan levels of scoring.

The school of thought seems to be that Westbrook will take over as PG and Harden will play SG. You could split that 50/50 or make Russell the SG but that makes no sense. I get they did it to get Paul's contract off the books but I don't think making Harden play a role he didn't want to play last year is the answer.

The school of thought is actually that Westbrook initiates the offence and pushes the ball up going to the basket hard if no one gets in front of him. If they then go into a half court set Harden's the play maker with Westbrook off ball and looking to drive rather than shoot in half court offence. Paul initiating the offence, but Harden taking over in half court sets to make use of his step back threes and driving to the hoop skills is actually how the Rockets have played in the Harden/Paul era. That duo worked well enough to put the Rockets in contention without too much support. I cant see how Westbrook and Harden wont be a better version compared to the Harden and Paul duo.

 

[QuietB]

Not for a 'near generational shooter'. Harden scores a lot because he has the ball a lot. I think everyone knows this.

He's a 44% shooter from the field and 37% from 3. That's pretty good don't get me wrong, but it's not even as good as JJ Redick who has to catch and shoot most of the time, let alone actual generational shooters like Steph and Klay. Harden is 42% and 33% in the playoffs, too.

Put the ball on the floor then drive or step back shoot, and play for the foul. How does that strategy work with Westbrook running point? If Russ can get his 25-10-10 and Harden can play off ball, spread the floor and get his 25-30 without needing the ball in his hands for 20 seconds every play then Houston will be alright. But I don't see it.

Only 8 players have averaged 50-40-90 over a season in the history of the NBA. No one has averaged it over a career - Nash was freaking close.

Depending on you all time greatest player list Bird is the only one from the top 20 who has achieved it.

Allegedly - https://www.opencourt-basketball.com/the-exclusive-50-40-90-club-has-expanded/

It is an unrealistic benchmark.

 

[Scotland]

This is the same over simplistic moronic argument from the laziest of nba comentators. Actually, I cant see how the combination wont simply be a better version of how they played together in 2011 as Harden has improved out of sight since then. You're talking crap if you think Harden cant play off ball. He's doesnt it a heap with Paul spending a lot of time with the ball in hand. Pretty simply the Rockets need Westbrook to drive and shoot mid range jumpers. They dont need him to shoot threes. They need more scoring in the paint and Westbrooks great at that. Simply put, all he has to do is have the ball as much as Paul did, but instead of launching from range he drives and dishes or launches mid range jump shot. Harden's dynamic when left open for three. Im not sure you've watched the rockets much if you dont think he can play off ball. Key to the Rockets is how much support they get for the duo. Iggy's tipped to sign with them (will require a trade) and they're one of the teams considering JR Smith who's now an unrestricted free agent.

LOL. So my argument for why it might not work is 'simplistic moronic' but you 'can't see' why why they won't be a better version of their 2011/12 selves? Well I can. In 2011/12 Westbrook ran point and got 24 points and 6 assists a game, and some guy named Kevin Durant led the team with 28 points and 8 rebounds. Harden came off the bench and was 6MOTY playing at shooting guard.

Harden shot the ball 1,000 times more than his nearest teammate this season. He needs the ball. Westbrook shot the ball twice as much as CP3 and had nearly twice as many assists. He needs the ball.

I watched the conference semis, and then I saw the US sports shows going on and on about how CP3 wasn't happy with Harden's off ball work and how there is a rift and all that, then here we are in July and CP3 is out the door. Jalen Rose agrees with me that Harden off ball is lazy, but if they old 'well you didn't watch' is the best you've got then you must not have much.



Talk of open threes is silly. In what universe are teams going to just leave the 3 point leader of this season just standing there by himself on the 3 point line? If he wants shots off ball he'll have to work for them just like the other great guards in the NBA.

 

[Bostonian]

I never said he had to play "pretty", I said his game is ugly and it is but it's also effective.

You're really making no point.

I love a step back. It's a thing of beauty.

The ugliest form of basketball has become the 3 point obsession.

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

Surely the Rockets will up the pace and use Russ in transition far more, something that was never an option with CP3. I’d also imagine Harden would be a bit fresher if playing off the ball more frequently which will also impact his shot selection.

Also having a hard time seeing how Harden will struggle to get shots off the ball. If he wants to get his shot off, he can.

I think I’ll at least see it in action before putting a line through it