NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Purplrrr]

I don’t even get the “why”, beyond the possible (personally I think, unlikely) misinterpretations. Wouldn’t the conversations be, ‘you have family now. Congratulations. This is your opportunity to make something of your career, make money, step up and make your family proud…’. I seem to recall, though don’t quote me, having a daughter is why Michael Walters

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Michael Walters

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33

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176cm

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77kg

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Fwd

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17.2

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11.0

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6.2

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3.9

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2.9

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1.7

5star

D

20.9

5star

K

11.8

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9.1

5star

M

3.6

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3.3

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1.0

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13.0

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K

9.4

4star

HB

3.6

3star

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4.4

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1.8

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0.8

4star

decided to work hard and make something of his talent. The short hand on that story was that Ross gets the credit for being a hard arse, but Walters did it because he wanted to for family. And I’m sure there are heaps of players with similar experiences… including the ones who didn’t make but still busted a gut. Why does Clarkson think family is a negative? Such a strange man management system!

 

[SunshineBoy]

Someone tell genius Hodge that’s a perfect example of racism.

They treat a white person very well.

And then they treat a non-white person like dirt.

Don’t forget hodge is a “good bloke”

 

[RocketBooster]

On its own this statement of support for his former coaches and associates (who he now regards as close friends) is not remarkable.

But the context of this statement of support from a senior former player, current AFL media identity and someone who is regarded as a former champion and leader of the Hawthorn Football Club at the very time these alleged abuses of indigenous families was said to have occurred is deeply troubling IMHO.

The independent review that revealed these allegations was commissioned by the Hawthorn Football Club in response to specific allegations from another former champion of the club. While the veracity of the specific allegations levelled against Fagan, Burt and Clarkson contained in the review is to be the subject of a more detailed review, there can be no doubt that the environment faced by some Indigenous players was less than healthy and certainly in contrast to the personal experiences of others in the playing group.

That a former leader of the HFC, Luke Hodge, does not even make reference to the environment that led to the Hawthorn Football Club commissioning the Egan review, nor the general concerns expressed by indigenous players and their partners is, at best, naive and disappointing and, at worst, symptomatic of the traumatic cultural issues that were outlined in the Egan Report.

Bunch of awesome blokes
Things were okay for Luke, so must have be the same for everyone else.

 

[Blue1980]

You’ve just gotta give up with these campaigners ……. I’m hopeful none sit on the bench of the Supreme Court, I can just imagine a verdict being handed down after reading content published in the paper on the way to court!!

Why do people keep saying this? Do you think a big footy forum is a court of law?

Do you never have opinions on anyone or any legal matter until both sides have provided evidence in court.

Thing is there is no jury and people are allowed to have views on this.

No one is saying lock him up/ban him from footy right now without a right of reply.

He will get his right of reply, and maybe it will exonerate him completely, which is basically what he needs in order to coach again.

The chances of it all being fabricated and made up is about 0.0001% in my view, I am pretty sure however there will be additional context added to the claims about the players being in trouble, Clarko trying to help etc.

 

[Blue1980]

With all the new buzz about what he was trying to do to Sam Mitchell, clearly shows he's massive narcissist. But can we stop referring to this a "racist" issue please. Obviously he had been controlling to everyone...


Full Read:

Fresh allegations emerge of Alastair Clarkson’s controlling behaviour

Fresh allegations emerge of Alastair Clarkson’s controlling behaviour​

*Told Mitchell to hand in his mobile phone - along with the rest of the team - on the eve of an interstate game against Sydney during a period in which one of his twin babies was being frequently admitted to hospital.

*Expressed surprise before the twins’ birth that Mitchell was having children so close together (the Mitchell’s son Smith was 11 months old when the twins were born) and wondered at the effect this might have upon his playing career.
*Publicly announced Mitchell was missing a game against Richmond due to personal reasons relating to the twins’ health without the player’s knowledge or consent.
*Ultimately agreed to treat Mitchell with more respect when the pair resolved their differences at the end of the season but again questioned the wisdom of the timing of the twins’ birth.

One can still be racist and a prick to others

 

[deanc]

Recently the Vic Supreme court found that matters under the Equal Opportunity Act are not time limited by the Limitations of Actions Act.......

Did they, do you recall the specfics this judgement refers to, is it ALL matters related to the four principals of our EEO..?

Related, another aspect you may have overlooked with your 'plausible scenario' is that civil courts/judges often reject petitions to formally hear related disputes if the issue is primarily based on 'hearsay' evidence - irrespective of who the claiments are, be they former AFL players or coaches, the AFL itself or a statutory agency like Safe Work Australia.

 

[SunshineBoy]

One persons "a child is a lifetime commitment, think carefully abd naje sure you're ready to take that step before you go ahead" talk is another persons "he's just told me in no uncertain terms to abort my child".

Nobody has the full story yet

* me are you drinking kool aid?

 

[fishardansin]

This will go to court to clear names

Either Russell Jackson and ABC will cop a serious lawsuit or clarko and fages will be unemployed

The ABC we tipped off and directly contacted the players and their partners. They reported what was said to them in interviews. They gave the accused an opportunity to respond.

The opportunity to respond came with a list of written and detailed questions. Seeing this is not a legal matter, just a work behaviour matter, they could respond without "incriminating" themselves. Because that would indicate there are potential criminal charges. Which no one is suggesting.

I never accused anyone of a money grab.
I dont believe anyone is lying.
I'm not sure how many times I need to say it.

A number of people are alleging a very consistent set of accusations against a group of people. These allegations are about a specific set of actions. Due to how specified these claims are, they are either correct or not. If the accused deny these allegations, then someone is lying.

No doubt at all he had the report leaked to him imo. Not sure who from.

There are so many potential leakers. I personally think the most likely source is one of the people interviewed. You can never trust a large corporate body to air this kind of dirty laundry without external pressure, so you could see why they may want to put a rocket up everyone. I also think it is fair to assume that their discussion with Egan would have occurred months before this went public.

The whole point about the response time afforded by the journalist to those named in the article is such a huge red herring for those wanting to distract from the actual issue at hand.

The focus should be solely on what is alleged to have occurred, not how long everyone was given or not given to reply to the journalist (since, whatever they could have said in reply to the article they can still say now).

Following on from my respond to theZiebull.

It is standard practice for both investigators AND journalists to speak with the complainants first. To get all of their stories before speaking to the accused. The fact is that it is not uncommon for the accused to contact and intimidate the accusers to change their stories.

Once they have the story, they have a set of questions that they can ask the accused. If the matter is a legal one with serious consequences, then EVERYONE is best advised to not say anything to investigators. However, if you were to speak to a lawyer and genuinely be innocent. All outlets would wait a few days for you to do a sit-down interview with them. You could have a lawyer with you.

If there was nothing to the allegations, they could easily be dismissed at that point. If it was a case of misunderstandings leading to abusive, but non-criminal, outcomes then it would be best to get something out there to soften the blow. A case like this could be solved by an immediate empathetic response, apologies and some time away to learn how to "do better".

Making it a fight won't make it better.

Why was she contacting the club and not her partner? Seems wierd

You did read the article, right? If you change the sim then your number is changed.

Far out what psychos did they have him locked up in basement somewhere, sounds like a Scientology cult

Yes, it does. They are obviously in the camp that football success is above all other things in life. It is very cultish behaviour.

Might just be worth waiting till all evidence is available before trying to make interpretations.

People keep saying this like we as observers need to hold our judgement. Not one person posting in this thread has any influence over the decision made. Nor is there a jury out there somewhere that we're influencing. These are professionals. They will complete a full investigation before anything is decided.

Fom The Age article. Link on p. 268.

"*Told Mitchell to hand in his mobile phone - along with the rest of the team - on the eve of an interstate game against Sydney during a period in which one of his twin babies was being frequently admitted to hospital."

Expressed surprise before the twins’ birth that Mitchell was having children so close together (the Mitchell’s son Smith was 11 months old when the twins were born) and wondered at the effect this might have upon his playing career.
Latest & Breaking News Melbourne, Victoria | The Age
*Publicly announced Mitchell was missing a game against Richmond due to personal reasons relating to the twins’ health without the player’s knowledge or consent.
Latest & Breaking News Melbourne, Victoria | The Age
*Ultimately agreed to treat Mitchell with more respect when the pair resolved their differences at the end of the season but again questioned the wisdom ...

"One wife of a former player said Lyndall Mitchell was admonished by a club official (not Clarkson) for not showing enough emotion after the Hawks’ three-point preliminary final defeat in 2011."

"Following complications surrounding the twins’ birth the Mitchells feared for twin Scarlett’s survival for several months. During that time Lyndall Mitchell’s mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s’ Disease. The family told teammates and friends at the time that Mitchell’s issues with the coach could have proved irreparable if not for the regular intervention of then football boss Mark Evans."

"Evans reportedly intervened after the players’ mobile phones were confiscated and returned Mitchell’s so the couple could remain in communication while the football boss’ wife Lynne stayed with Lyndall Mitchell and her young family in Melbourne. He refused to comment when contacted.

Wow. Head shaking stuff."

Never win at any cost eh Clarko?

Absolutely disgusting. Further evidence of the cult-like behaviour of football above everything else.

Was that against his will or did I see somewhere he’d asked for help?

Read the article. He is clearly aggrieved by it.

So when Hodge and Lewis went on TV / Radio saying they hadn't seen 'that side of Clarko' - they forgot he confiscated their phones in 2011?

Might not only be Clarksons career finished if that's the case.
Lewis in particular on AFL 360 with Eddie Betts,looked like he'd made the worst error of his life choosing to comment on the situation.

Those 2 (plus Shaun Burgoyne who obviously also forgot Clarkson frequently confiscated phones) have a bit of unmuddying of waters to do,because it looks like they HAD seen that side of Clarkson.

Wow.

The phones being confiscated on that trip only affected Mitchel. If everyone in the group decided that they wanted to close off all outside distractions for that game, then fair enough. That there wasn't special consideration for Mitchell considering his baby's health and mother-in-law is crazy. Burgoyne came to the club as an established star player whose family situation would have been well beyond that crap. All of the alleged conversations that happened were private with one player being bullied by a coach or two. They obviously felt vulnerable about their place at the club and didn't speak to others about it, just went along with it.

With all the new buzz about what he was trying to do to Sam Mitchell, clearly shows he's massive narcissist. But can we stop referring to this a "racist" issue please. Obviously he had been controlling to everyone...


Full Read:

Fresh allegations emerge of Alastair Clarkson’s controlling behaviour

Fresh allegations emerge of Alastair Clarkson’s controlling behaviour​

*Told Mitchell to hand in his mobile phone - along with the rest of the team - on the eve of an interstate game against Sydney during a period in which one of his twin babies was being frequently admitted to hospital.

*Expressed surprise before the twins’ birth that Mitchell was having children so close together (the Mitchell’s son Smith was 11 months old when the twins were born) and wondered at the effect this might have upon his playing career.
*Publicly announced Mitchell was missing a game against Richmond due to personal reasons relating to the twins’ health without the player’s knowledge or consent.
*Ultimately agreed to treat Mitchell with more respect when the pair resolved their differences at the end of the season but again questioned the wisdom of the timing of the twins’ birth.

If I call my white friend a dumb c-bomb in public then I'm a prick. If I then call my Warlpiri friends/family a black c-bomb in public the next day I'm a prick who is doing something that is racist.

AFL coaches work with a lot of indigenous folk. They would have had a lot of training about cultural sensitivities. To ignore that makes you racist, with or without a Nazi salute. If there was a young player from Melbourne who still lived at home with his parents and hung out with the same friends, then removing his sim card would still allow his partner to chase him up through his mates. To isolate a young man staying away from his family, then make him live with a coach and control his contact with the outside world is crazy. To do it to an indigenous person whose partner was pregnant following a century of the stolen gen (in a time AFTER the national apology) and centuries of "Aboriginal protectors" interfering with their family lives, you're continuing on with the genocidal settler colonialism using the paternalism that simultaneously makes you more of a bigot while making a bigot feel like they're doing the right thing.

Most people who are racist also bully people of their own ethnic group too. If a number of non-indigenous people come forward and tell their stories under Clarkson then it doesn't stop the fact that what he did to these families is made worse through the lens of their ethnicity.

He is putrid beyond belief. As the team manager of my son's u10 footy team I have utter contempt for parents who abuse players and umpires. God he's a disgusting human being

Look Lance, you're being too soft! I mean they take the huge $45 salary, so they're fair game! I know it might be a 16-year-old kid, but we must keep umpire standards high and there is nothing like violence to make a 16-year-old learn to be better.

We’ll you’ve convinced me. Must be 100% true then. No need to interview Clarkson, just throw the book at him.

We're not the investigating panel. We're observers who have read

1. The article
2. The response of Hawthorn and AFL
3. Clarkson, Fagan and Burt step down to deal with this.
4. The report.
5. The contemporaneous emails
6. Now Mitchell's article.

We have not seen a detailed response from any of the accused yet. I am sure that 99% of people would be happy to change their minds if facts come to light that would indicate we should. I am also sure that a huge chunk of people will still see what Clarkson et al did was ill-advised at least.

Of course racism was involved but was it the primary cause of what happened at Hawthorn? Who knows, they only looked for racism. This isn't Egan's fault, it was what he was commissioned to do. We will likely have a further inquiry which also makes this assumption. This, to me, is dodgy analysis.

The issue that we can solve is to stop coaches and other unqualified officials from involving themselves in players' private lives. When they move into areas outside their abilities or training is where prejudices can take over.

Racism is never the primary cause. It is always a subconscious justification to commit atrocities for one's gain. There was no such thing in classical times as people with all kinds of skin colour and levels of body hair interacted in the near east and around the Mediterranean. There were some beginnings in the Ottoman empire, but it really became a thing in Spanish and British colonies in the Americas. Then colonisers in Australia, Africa and Asia latched on to the unscientific assessment of physical, cultural, technological and language differences to justify their theft of the world's riches.

Remember Africans were counted as 60% human to decide the number of congressional seats a region of the US had. Britain declared Australia Terra Nullius and did not count Indigenous Australian on the census until 1968. In a post-enlightenment world, you can not just erase culture and take their land and right to determine their futures if they are human. You can not commit someone and all of their offspring to slavery in perpetuity if they are human. "Chinamen" should shut up and let us sell opium in their lands.

If the remarkably consistent and collaborative evidence turns out to be true it does show that the coaching group at Hawthorn at the time were like an abusive cult. This does not stop it from being racist.

It has a racist bent because there is no doubt in anyone reasonable person's mind that Kennet is a racist piece of poo. An investigation was run on the basis of that. In the process of interviewing Indigenous players, these horrific stories were uncovered. I have little doubt that it didn't happen to others, in fact, we're seeing that come to light now as well.

It is still racist. No point deflecting from that just because abuses occurred that were not racist.

 

[Blue1980]

This thread is a good reflection of why media can't be trusted to drive a focus on more pertinent issues.

But it's a shame that there is no focus on reviewing indigenous, as well as mental health support for all former and current players across the competition.

Wasn't a review across the competition after Boyd retiring for mental health.

Wasn't a review across the competition after the drugs saga with Essendon.

Wasn't a review across the competition after the hubs (which my club didn't handle well either)

If Clarko doesn't continue with us, then so be it. Have nothing against, Hawthorn, Egan or Russel Jackson.

I understand why oppo supporters want their pound of flesh with Clarkson, just a shame discussion around here hasn't really gone beyond that.

It’s got nothing to do with Clarko being from an opposition club. It goes way beyond partisan footy stuff with this issue.

All of North, Hawthorn and Brisbane will keep going, the hawks still won their flags, if brisbane got a new coach they get someone else in to take advantage of a good list.

North rebuilding anyway so need to get all pillars in place, all these clubs bigger than an individual.

 

[fishardansin]

Terrible really, how Clarko et al have been cancelled here. I feel for them. I bet journos won’t even pick up the phone or read their email… just ignoring their fervent denials and denying their opportunity to be heard / read. I also feel for the lesser profiled Hawks players who aren’t from a First Nation background and are obviously queuing up to share their experiences of comparable treatment so that we can all see how race has played no part in any of this.

Poor guys.

3/10 for this post. You did not mention "woke" once.

 

[fishardansin]

I didn't think anything could top wada ooga booga in over the top but here we are.

Neither Clarkson or Fagan will be suspended for a day.

I agree. Having accreditation removed is not suspension.

 

[VinnieB]

I hope their are no muslims at North....for their own sake.

 

[Blue1980]

Um yeah there's a vast difference between the Lions board thread and the North board thread.

I used to feel sorry for North supporters, and wanted to see things improve for them.

Not after reading that deluded scheiza

To be fair I think most north supporters on here have been reasonable

 

[Blue1980]

'Good family' is term regularly used by recruiters. It means white, two parents, private school, just like me (and Clarko, etc.). You don't need to go into slavery history to understand this. Racist paternalism is still the basis of much recent Australian government policy towards FN people: NT intervention, cashless welfare cards, etc. Despite this, there isn't evidence that Hawthorn systematically targeted Indigenous players as you claim as only FN players were interviewed. To draw your conclusion you clearly need to interview everyone.

I don’t think it always means that, but it can and often means that.

 

[Xtreme]

* me are you drinking kool aid?

I'd be saying the same thing regardless if it was Clarko, Crawford, Carey, Voss, Buckley, Hird, Dangerfield, Selwood.

 

[Blue1980]

Emails, documents, meetings, phone calls, testimony from 3 separate families, Egan, Russell, abusing a junior ump, punching walls and fans, confiscating phones = fake evidence about Clarko
Hodgey's tweet, Burgoyne seeing nothing = real evidence about Clarko

The Burgoyne not knowing being some smoking gun is ridiculous.

Do people assume all aboriginals talk to each other about everything and are some homogenous mass that all think and act the same?

 

[Altum Volantes]

Massive congratulations to old mate Clarko, today’s recipient of the….

 

[Blue1980]

Carl left a fair old while ago. Devastated by having to stand down the coach and go through this sure. But having gone through it all, still behind Clarko.

Surprised you're not wondering what Ratten knew, if you're so concerned.

If we are playing this game I should be concerned how our fitness guy Jack Russell who was at hawthorn was involved.

I mean surely he wasn’t, I mean it’s possible but thought I would just mention to show I am not biased.

Fwiw I don’t think everyone who was present at the club 2010-16 is under suspicion, unless mentioned in the report.

 

[Nikita Blue]

Not sure why Hodge had to put out a statement. Nothing to stop him privately supporting them but publicly doing so is just fanning the flames.

 

[PrinceCharles]

Make sure you clean up your own backyard first before telling others to be better. I hope you're ashamed you posted this.
View attachment 1523308

Wow, if this is you DVB I hereby cancel you.

 

[Blue1980]

We’ll you’ve convinced me. Must be 100% true then. No need to interview Clarkson, just throw the book at him.

Strawman argument, one that no one is putting forward.

Strawman argument here = everyone wants to see Clarko banned based on here-say.

 

[RocketBooster]

In the case of many high profile abusers, whether it is domestic Violence, Sexual assault, child abuse, there are supporters who claim they only saw the good deeds done by the person, and the person was a good bloke and did so much for the community.

 

[Blue1980]

View attachment 1523285

According to some just a disgruntled assistant with an axe to grind.

Same with the players.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

The Prez is behind him and that's good enough for me.

Great prez you've got.

 

[The Warlord]

I agree. Having accreditation removed is not suspension.

Mad respekt to you for inadvertently breaking the biggest story in footy history on this site, but this isn't happening.

People's inability to ask even the most basic questions stuns me.

For example, why does the report/allegations only cover about a third of Clarko's time there?

And why does it say itself the situation had much improved in the years after the events in the report.

Did Clarko suddenly become a racist psycho after six years in the job in 2010 (and winning a flag) and then suddenly stop for the last five years post 2016?

And if he was a massive racist, why did he do the same thing to Sam Mitchell.

Breaking news, Clarkson is a mad little *er in the mould of all coaches, especially the good ones. That's basically the story.

When the AFL does do a club by club sweep to uncover other landmines, s**t is going to come out as bad but actually racist as anything Clarkson is accused of.