Play Nice The 'all things Carlton' mega-thread

[sandeano]

In regards to the priority pick....

"These are the new leads. These are the Glengarry leads. And to you, they're gold. And you don't get them. Why? Because to give them to you is just throwing them away. They're for closers. I'd wish you good luck, but you wouldn't know what to do with it if you got it."

 

[Bulldog1954]

No doubt Bolton and SOS could still bomb the team and the reset could end up as a failure. But two years in, to say that they've failed is just an opportunity to have a dig at Carlton.

It's to early to say it's a failure, but I can't see how anyone could argue that the rebuild thus far is going well.

 

[Blueyboy74]

With the way our first year under Bolts went, can you blame us? Obviously got ahead of ourselves, thinking improvement would happen gradually after that. The reality is we came last in 2015 and that was us pushing for finals, we hadn't even bottomed out yet...

That's the list Bolton and SOS inherited.

The question still stands though - we all know about the crap list Bolton inherited, how young the team is etc, but do you actually believe the club has made ground in the following areas in the past 3 years, even if it hasn't translated on to the field as yet:

- Game style/tactics
- Player development
- Football Administration (eg recruiting, resourcing, contracts etc)
- Sports Science - Fitness, rehab etc

Surely there has to be a fair degree of ongoing analysis/measurement, particularly if the climb back up doesn't start to 2019 ... that means potentially 2021 before you can properly evaluate ... do you want to wait until then and possibly say ''nah he's not right man ..''? Who is placed to make such analysis - you currently have no footy manager, the CEO is very fresh, the Pres invisible. Hopefully for you guys Juddy's role is very hands-on unlike most board positions.

 

[SickQwon]

It's to early to say it's a failure, but I can't see how anyone could argue that the rebuild thus far is going well.

Putting games into the future of the club is really all they can do this year. I know Carlton overrate young players but Cripps, Fisher, Curnow, Dow, McKay have improved massively this season. And that’s the future of this club. Others might not make it but at least I’m content that we have a good core to build around. Results will come.

 

[SickQwon]

The question still stands though - we all know about the crap list Bolton inherited, how young the team is etc, but do you actually believe the club has made ground in the following areas in the past 3 years, even if it hasn't translated on to the field as yet:

- Game style/tactics
- Player development
- Football Administration (eg recruiting, resourcing contracts etc)
- Sports Science - Fitness, rehab etc

Surely there has to be a fair degree of analysis/measurement, particularly if the climb back up doesn't start to 2019 ... that means potentially 2021 before you can properly evaluate ... do you want to wait until then and possibly say ''nah he's not right man ..''?

game style: “defined by pressure” - fail

Player development: can justify Weitering given the disruption of the back 6 due to injuries. Also, injuries to players that the club invested heavily on. But we’ve had some hits as demonstrated above.

Admin: it’s not Kernahan so I’m happy, Mckay out too is a plus.

Recruits: get in youth and first rounders - tick
Supporting them with mature depth - fail

Contracts: we’re not overpaying kids. Questioning Polsons extension. Club must see something we don’t. - dunno lol

Sports science: nuke it - fail

 

[Blue1980]

With the way our first year under Bolts went, can you blame us? Obviously got ahead of ourselves, thinking improvement would happen gradually after that. The reality is we came last in 2015 and that was us pushing for finals, we hadn't even bottomed out yet...

That's the list Bolton and SOS inherited.

Hindsight to me shows we overachieved in 2016/17, and had a settled committed side who worked their guts out, and we still weren’t very good.

If say in 2016 we lost Gibbs, Docherty for a whole season and had limited output of Murphy and Kreuzer I doubt that season would of been much better than this.

In 2016 we had a purple patch winning 6 of 7 and nothing else. Murphy went down r10 and that was literally it for the year. We somehow beat Geelong with a super human performance from Gibbs and the likes of white and Armfield having the games of their lives.

It’s too simplistic to say a side isn’t playing well = coach has lost players. Guys are re-signing and I see no evidence of a playing group who are unhappy. They just seem to lack cohesion, experienced talent and devoid of any confidence.

We just need to hold our nerve for now. No on can predict the future, and it maybe time to change things in a year or 2 years, but now would be pointless.

 

[Malifice]

So you have illustrated 8 years of draft lotto and now we are going back to draft lotto again to secure our future rebuild, doesn't seem like we have learnt a lesson from history then.

What?

How else can a team with a list full of s**t (like we had) rebuild, if it's not via the draft?

We traded out what value we did have (Henderson, Tuohy, Yarran, Bell, Gibbs) to improve our draft position and get in more youth.

And your post re the kids is ridiculous. They're 1st and 2nd year kids mainly. What did you expect them to be doing at the moment? Most kids 1-3 years out from being drafted dont offer much. Sides dont put teams full of them out on the park, because they get smashed (look at GCS and GWS in their first few years). You generally cant afford to carry more than 1 or 2 rookie players.

They'll need around 5 preseasons and around 100 games to their names.

 

[Blue1980]

What?

How else can a team with a list full of s**t (like we had) rebuild, if it's not via the draft?

We traded out what value we did have (Henderson, Tuohy, Yarran, Bell, Gibbs) to improve our draft position and get in more youth.

And your post re the kids is ridiculous. They're 1st and 2nd year kids mainly. What did you expect them to be doing at the moment? Most kids 1-3 years out from being drafted dont offer much. Sides dont put teams full of them out on the park, because they get smashed (look at GCS and GWS in their first few years). You generally cant afford to carry more than 1 or 2 rookie players.

They'll need around 5 preseasons and around 100 games to their names.

100% this. What else can we do. Most decent established players don’t want to come to us, so other than offering mid range players ridiculous deals hitting the draft is the only real option.

 

[SickQwon]

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2018/07...list-overhauled-in-three-years-like-carltons/

I think the important thing King highlighted is that with the turnover of players over the past three years means there is no cohesion with the current list, the players haven't been given enough opportunity to gel together and that's going to take time.

 

[Malifice]

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2018/07...list-overhauled-in-three-years-like-carltons/

I think the important thing King highlighted is that with the turnover of players over the past three years means there is no cohesion with the current list, the players haven't been given enough opportunity to gel together and that's going to take time.

The commonly accepted metric is around 5 pre seasons, around 23 years of age and around 100 games. Thats generally how long it takes most blokes to find their feet, and develop as men (and players).

Some players come on earlier (and even then, most of them have second and third year blues) but a player generally isnt settled and fully developed till around that point.

The next big 'burst' usually happens at around 8-10 pre seasons, around 27-28 years of age and around 150-200 games. Thats when you're at your peak. You're experienced, settled, and as fit and strong as you'll ever be in your life.

Its all downhill a few years after that of course. But thats the price of being an athlete.

 

[95bluemember]

As Paul Roos has publicly stated our players are not being taught the right way to defend, I respect his opinion more than anyone at the Carlton football club right now.
We need to approach Roos to set us up as he did with the Swans and Demons, it should be simple as Bolts is on a normal employee agreement.
Bolts message/plan is lost on our young group.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

Steele had 18 uncontested which means he was doing the opposite of following Cripps around when the Saints had the ball

I thought he was following cripps, my bad

 

[Cleric]

Carlton is their own worst enemy. They are far too arrogant now with SOS, Judd and Bolton running the show.
They are poorly ran, poorly coached, and the kids are poorly developed.
They have traded poorly, and allowed some of their best talent to leave, such as Betts.
Until they change this, they wont go anywhere.

 

[chickentendies]

Carlton is their own worst enemy. They are far too arrogant now with SOS, Judd and Bolton running the show.
They are poorly ran, poorly coached, and the kids are poorly developed.
They have traded poorly, and allowed some of their best talent to leave, such as Betts.
Until they change this, they wont go anywhere.

I personally think this might be slight hyperbole - I've never detected a hint of arrogance from Bolton. I sometimes get concerned that specific management get too much of a cult of personality about them (SOS) but I really can't comment on him. I actually didn't mind his idea of poaching fringe players from GWS, it was leveraging personal relationships he had to try and get some bargains. Personally not a fan of Judd, great player, poor leader.

Their trades prior to Bolton entering were absolutely s**t house. The Crows cop a lot of flack for player retention in the media while Carlton seem to glide under the radar a bit which I think is pretty unfair. They really did lose Betts due to a lack of care - the Crows got away with murder in that trade.

But, I think they're turning a new leaf and hopefully with more staff turnover, tweaks and all that they'll be on the way up. They do actually have some great young talent, but they've had all this before and have completely ****ed it up. Bolton was given an extremely tough gig for a first-time coach and it really will take a bit of time. Melbourne are really only beginning to come out of the cesspool that was their past 10 or so years and it took a solid 3 - 5 years for that to properly occur and I'd argue they aren't out of it yet. Port since 2013 have gotten out of the s**t heap and are still flakey, with only 3 finals appearances to their name since that time. Its a really long process and I think Bolton (and Carlton) need to be given time to pull themselves out of it.

For the sake of the game and seeing different teams at the top, I really hope they do it!

 

[tigertigertiger]

Biggest fail out of the Clarko apprentices

 

[branedotorg]

Carlton will come out next week fired up and beat the Hawks.

Could be a chance against Gold Coast the week after also.

kind of you but i doubt it

 

[evo]

Ive seen Richmond go from total headcases for over 30 years to turning it around.

Hang on a cotton picken minute. This is a myth that has seemed to have grown in recent times.l

We weren't a 'total head case' for all of the last 30 years. We made a number of prelims. In particular around Northey era we were one of the better sides until a young promising Richo did a knee in Sydney.We also weren't too bad early into Spuds coaching, also making a prelim.

Apart from that we were usually 'Ninethmond', remember. Carlton, on the other hand look like winning one game this season, mate. One!!! Even in our darkest moments we've never been that bad

Carlton would have to improve markedly to become known as 'Ninthton'.

 

[branedotorg]

Wtf is this weird sort of logic?

So because St.Kilda the club and players have done some weird s**t in recent years we can now slate their fans as being the same just to discredit them. What drivel.

I guess that means we should all go to Carlton fans for our tax return? After all the club knows about fudging figures. Or is that totally unfair to slate you all?

would you use Skase or Bond's accountants?

nah mate, you'd go to essendon, they got away with it.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Hang on a cotton picken minute. This is a myth that has seemed to have grown in recent times.l

We weren't a 'total head case' for all of the last 30 years. We made a number of prelims. In particular around Northey era we were one of the better sides until a young promising Richo did a knee in Sydney.We also weren't too bad early into Spuds coaching, also making a prelim.

Apart from that we were usually 'Ninethmond', remember. Carlton, on the other hand look like winning one game this season, mate. One!!! Even in our darkest moments we've never been that bad

Carlton would have to improve markedly to become known as 'Ninthton'.

A number of prelims? C'mon mate, they made 2 prelims from memory. 95 and 2001

 

[95bluemember]

ok a quick ranking of players SOS has brought in and why we are where we are at now. (no particular order)
Charlie: A- developing nicely, likely future star.
Kerridge: D- In and out of the team, turns the ball over with poor skills.
JSOS: E in no man's land at the moment.
SPS: C- Did some great things but now not very consistent, not tracking as everyone hoped.
Fisher: C+ has picked up the tempo better and has a few tricks.
Plow: B- tries hard and consistent defender.
Harry: C- from what I've seen I have liked, limited games, nice kick good hands.
Marchbank: C- played some nice games but very injury prone.
LOB: D quick nice kick but slight of build.
Dow: D+ hasn't paddy wowed like we wanted, done some nice things but needs a tank and better skills.
Cunners: E+ nowhere near where he should be. Would have been much better off picking Mathieson (lions). Injury prone.
Macreadie: D shown he is composed, just as deserving as Weitering to get a game when fit.
Polson: E- looks off the pace turns the ball over.
Schumacher: E learning his craft in the twos.
Pickett: D+ shown some pace and can kick a goal, injury prone.
Garrett: E hasn't shown much, we need a Willie Rioli.
Kennedy: D+ some ok thing looks a bit slow needs some tricks like Cripps, a bit one dimensional, and a little "brittle".
Lamb: D- ok pest sometimes not deserving of his spot most others.
Lang: E let down so far.
Weiters: C- had aa nice first year gone backwards, looks slow and slow to move the ball on giving teams way to much time to set up, shows poor body language.
Willo: D+ has a crack great side step, injured.
Phillips: E steak knives.
O Shea: E meh.
Mullet: D- brings some nice ink.
Shaw: F the phantom.
Lobbe: F cheap insurance?
Add to that another bunch SOS brought in and delisted last year: Galluci, Smedts, Sumner, Gorringe and Palmer!
That's an extremely poor strike rate.
Can't wait to see what SOS says on footy classified tonight, hopefully he doesn't just keep saying ' at the end of the day'

 

[JeffDunne]

As I have been saying since I joined BF, Carlton's problems are cultural and it started long before their first spoon.

John Elliott destroyed Carlton as a football club and they haven't learnt the lesson since.

May I remind people that this is their vice-president?

Carlton are now the club best described as a social club with a football team.

 

[JayJ20]

Way too harsh on Carlton. They are a bottom 4 side with a ton of injuries to senior players and more developed youngsters. Wasn't too long ago that they pushed Port and Collingwood.

 

[cotter101]

Alarmingly well beaten by teams near them on the ladder.

Gold Coast 34 points
Fremantle 57 points
Brisbane Lions 65 points
St Kilda 57 points

The way they’ve played the last two weeks, I can’t see them winning another game.

Their development system simply doesn’t appear to be up to scratch and their list management technique is looking increasingly stupid.

I don’t think it’s all Bolton’s fault, but he will be the one that eventually cops it.

 

[Rich01]

Some supporters certainly thought it was 3 years then back to finals.

Those supporters simply were not listening to the club (the club was very clear that this was a ground zero total list reset, and the reasons why it had to happen) and were ignorant of the hole we found ourselves in, and the reason why we had to do what we did.

Like any other club we have feral supporters, who (basically) arent very bright. They want instant gratification and cant see the bigger picture. When it comes to instant gratification and messiah complexes, Carlton are renowned for it.

That said, the club is pretty unified with the direction we are headed (players, admin, supporters etc). Most of us are savvy enough to know why we had to do what we did, and are in this for the long haul.

Not much will change next year. We'll be bottom 4 again. But I do expect us to start to rise rather quickly after that in 2020/21 once those kids we've picked up over the past four or so years start to reach that magical 100 game mark, and we get in some Free agents or trades.

If this is what Carlton expected after three years after a full reset and things are going to plan, there’s no way they can ask for a PP.

Need to stick the plan out.

 

[SickQwon]

If this is what Carlton expected after three years after a full reset and things are going to plan, there’s no way they can ask for a PP.

Need to stick the plan out.

Correct. And surprisingly the club acknowledges it. They know they’ve put themselves into this miss and they are showing incredible signs of faith that the right people are in the right place to see them out. No quick fixes.

You can pretty much ignore every post saying Carlton haven’t changed.