List Mgmt. 2015 general list discussion and speculation - PLEASE START NEW THREAD ON BREAKING NEWS

[Lager]

That's probably true to some extent, as people will easily identify the obviously better players from the pack, but i don't think picks 1-5 or 6-10 are vastly different in terms of current or future ability. The point I was trying to make is that the value of early picks is there if you have the right structures at your disposal to take advantage of the opportunity, since the number a player is drafted at is a speculative value judgment based on the information at hand when the kid is 17/18.

I completely agree.
I've often felt that one of the main differences with kids who are taken earlier in a draft, compared to those taken later, is the ability to display more professional attitudes during under-age footy. These attitudes give rise to better, more eye catching performances through higher levels of (self motivated) fitness and technical skill - in addition, higher fitness levels also allow better execution of those skills. Differences in these attitudes are somewhat eroded when kids enter the AFL system due to the physical and mental response to the mentoring and coaching that is provided. Therefore rating at time of draft should be seen as purely indicative, and not remain the driver for player value.

 

[cynical]

You talk about output and then mention stats as evidence. Yet Varcoe's stats this year are almost identical to Wojcinski's in 2011 when they've been playing very, very similar roles (Wojak had 0.7 more disposals, 1.5 less tackles, etc). I assume you wanted Wojcinski dropped in 2011?

Wojo provided run and carry Varcoe hands the ball off like it's a hot potato.

I've been a fan of Varcoe but as an outside player he has to be the guy delivering the ball down the field. Too often he just craps himself and gives off quick handballs he doesn't take players on or have running bounces.

He really needs to be taking players on a bit more, plays way too safe at times.

 

[TheJimmyCartel]

Wojo provided run and carry Varcoe hands the ball off like it's a hot potato.

I've been a fan of Varcoe but as an outside player he has to be the guy delivering the ball down the field. Too often he just craps himself and gives off quick handballs he doesn't take players on or have running bounces.

He really needs to be taking players on a bit more, plays way too safe at times.

...and with those scared handballs regularly puts his team mates in terrible situations.

 

[Turbocat]

The Pivotonian , gun post

 

[Turbocat]

While Wells & Co. should be commended for their ability to find value with later picks I have voiced my thoughts that having to use more later picks probably isn't a sustainable model for success over time.

On this.... I have mentioned it before that I feel we are short an early pick or two. The "sustainable model" term is a nice way of putting it , we have never had to setup our list just using late picks , and we will not this time either but last time we had more than we currently had. And we had FS that became like single figure picks.

We have Caddy due to us being able to trade an Ablett pick but we really do not have many early picks , and I do wonder if our development can over come so much of a handicap.

 

[Turbocat]

Maybe the lagging form of Varcoe will mean we will look at another pure outside player. 10lana make a point about running , id wonder why the mc ask him to do that? Is that the best he can bring...running? As a player who lives on his skills the goal misses last year and this year have been defining.

 

[TheJimmyCartel]

Maybe the lagging form of Varcoe will mean we will look at another pure outside player. 10lana make a point about running , id wonder why the mc ask him to do that? Is that the best he can bring...running? As a player who lives on his skills the goal misses last year and this year have been defining.

At least we have a few young guys that can provide both in and outside - Hartman and Lang are coming along well. Thurlow would already be an upgrade IMO, it would be +EV, especially long term with Varcoe out and Thurlow in and gaining experience. When was the last Varcoe kicked a clutch goal from 50m when we were on the ropes. I sure as hell can't remember. Remember a few misses though.

 

[Pivo]

On this.... I have mentioned it before that I feel we are short an early pick or two. The "sustainable model" term is a nice way of putting it , we have never had to setup our list just using late picks , and we will not this time either but last time we had more than we currently had. And we had FS that became like single figure picks.

We have Caddy due to us being able to trade an Ablett pick but we really do not have many early picks , and I do wonder if our development can over come so much of a handicap.

The Father-Sons (jagged prior to the bidding system) helped us no end.

As a Geelong supporter I get sick of hearing about the leg up we got from the Father-Son rule (since they weren't "sure things" at the time, well, Hawkins probably was...) but there is no doubt that we benefitted because Scarlett, Ablett and Hawkins turned into guns.

Hell, for all the shit Blake cops he also perfomed his role.

Considering we were able to land BOTH Hawkins and Selwood in the same draft highlights the assistance. Try and pick between Selwood and Hawkins.

And in 2001 we not only got Ablett but we had 4 picks inside the first 25 (showing why having multiple picks inside the top 30 is handy) and nailed 3 of the selections (Bartel, Kelly & Johnson).

 

[Turbocat]

At least we have a few young guys that can provide both in and outside - Hartman and Lang are coming along well. Thurlow would already be an upgrade IMO, it would be +EV, especially long term with Varcoe out and Thurlow in and gaining experience. When was the last Varcoe kicked a clutch goal from 50m when we were on the ropes. I sure as hell can't remember. Remember a few misses though.

I know id be dishing the ball quick too if id had the injuries like he has but that's football. Yes we have a few but im not sure we a blistering outside guy. McFarline is a super quick (VFL player) for instance. Just be nice to have a real roadrunner for supreme skills.

 

[The rabbi]

The Pivotonian , gun post

Not really a surprise to me.

 

[Turbocat]

The Father-Sons (jagged prior to the bidding system) helped us no end.

As a Geelong supporter I get sick of hearing about the leg up we got from the Father-Son rule (since they weren't "sure things" at the time, well, Hawkins probably was...) but there is no doubt that we benefitted because Scarlett, Ablett and Hawkins turned into guns.

Hell, for all the shit Blake cops he also perfomed his role.

Considering we were able to land BOTH Hawkins and Selwood in the same draft highlights the assistance. Try and pick between Selwood and Hawkins.

And in 2001 we not only got Ablett but we had 4 picks inside the first 25 (showing why having multiple picks inside the top 30 is handy) and nailed 3 of the selections (Bartel, Kelly & Johnson).

I dont need to debate it with you , I have with others. The only FS that we got a bargain with is Hawkins. Top 5 pick no doubt and then got Selwood as well. The other became better than their drafting rating. Even with the current system , Ablett would have been a R2 or an R3. Scarlett was not even our best FS that year.

Point is they became as good as R1 players. How many of our new group will become that. Id give a tick to Duncan , The Key maybe even Blitz. Others?

 

[Turbocat]

Not really a surprise to me.

Still deserve the accolade even if we know he is a quality poster Rab.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Maybe the lagging form of Varcoe will mean we will look at another pure outside player. 10lana make a point about running , id wonder why the mc ask him to do that? Is that the best he can bring...running? As a player who lives on his skills the goal misses last year and this year have been defining.

But this is clearly not true. If he lived on his skills and his ability with the ball he would've been dropped long ago. The fact he's still getting selected despite not getting much of the ball should be a pretty strong clue that he's playing a role that doesn't rely on him getting the ball much.

 

[meto]

Ah yes, running patterns. I was disappointed in Caddy's game last week for the same reason. Very poor running patterns, he foolishly went and got the bal 28 times instead.

I feel sorry for you at times, trying to rationalize with the irrational, hope you don't mind me saying so, but it's a lost cause! They're either to intimidated to say a negative or just plain simple.
The whole forum is compromised.

 

[vinum coupe]

But this is clearly not true. If he lived on his skills and his ability with the ball he would've been dropped long ago. The fact he's still getting selected despite not getting much of the ball should be a pretty strong clue that he's playing a role that doesn't rely on him getting the ball much.

Sure. But this isn't the Melbourne board.

We continue to be premiership threats.
Our supporters are now used to looking for weaknesses in the side and where we can do damage.

No doubt Varcoe is playing a role, or he would have been dropped.
But if he stops giving 2m handballs and instead takes off, we add about 5% to our threat level as a team.

That's enough to win finals.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Sure. But this isn't the Melbourne board.

We continue to be premiership threats.
Our supporters are now used to looking for weaknesses in the side and where we can do damage.

No doubt Varcoe is playing a role, or he would have been dropped.
But if he stops giving 2m handballs and instead takes off, we add about 5% to our threat level as a team.

That's enough to win finals.

You're right this isn't the Melbourne board. We know we've got one of the most professional coaching and playing groups in the competition. Players don't stay in the side if they're not playing their role in the team. Hunt, West, Milburn, etc have all been dropped without being particularly bad but the coaching staff want more than that. Yet Varcoe has never been dropped in recent memory (I think early 2008 was the last time). I've said this before and I'll say it again. It's possible most people on this board know more about the game than one of the best coaching and playing groups in the game's history. It's possible that Varcoe is a favourite of the coaching and playing group and he's selected in spite of poor performances. I think it's much more logical that they have a role they want Varcoe to play and he's playing it well enough to continue being selected.

When Varcoe's in space he does take off. He only gives the panicked handball when he's about to get smashed in a tackle. There are some situations where he could make better decisions and they'll be working on that but let's not pretend that the 2 or so times it happens a game would amount to anything more than the most minute of improvements.

 

[vinum coupe]

You're right this isn't the Melbourne board. We know we've got one of the most professional coaching and playing groups in the competition. Players don't stay in the side if they're not playing their role in the team. Hunt, West, Milburn, etc have all been dropped without being particularly bad but the coaching staff want more than that. Yet Varcoe has never been dropped in recent memory (I think early 2008 was the last time). I've said this before and I'll say it again. It's possible most people on this board know more about the game than one of the best coaching and playing groups in the game's history. It's possible that Varcoe is a favourite of the coaching and playing group and he's selected in spite of poor performances. I think it's much more logical that they have a role they want Varcoe to play and he's playing it well enough to continue being selected.

When Varcoe's in space he does take off. He only gives the panicked handball when he's about to get smashed in a tackle. There are some situations where he could make better decisions and they'll be working on that but let's not pretend that the 2 or so times it happens a game would amount to anything more than the most minute of improvements.

Woah, woah, woah.
I am a TV fan, but that is complete BS.

Open the other eye.

 

[catswhiskers]

You're right this isn't the Melbourne board. We know we've got one of the most professional coaching and playing groups in the competition. Players don't stay in the side if they're not playing their role in the team. Hunt, West, Milburn, etc have all been dropped without being particularly bad but the coaching staff want more than that. Yet Varcoe has never been dropped in recent memory (I think early 2008 was the last time). I've said this before and I'll say it again. It's possible most people on this board know more about the game than one of the best coaching and playing groups in the game's history. It's possible that Varcoe is a favourite of the coaching and playing group and he's selected in spite of poor performances. I think it's much more logical that they have a role they want Varcoe to play and he's playing it well enough to continue being selected.

When Varcoe's in space he does take off. He only gives the panicked handball when he's about to get smashed in a tackle. There are some situations where he could make better decisions and they'll be working on that but let's not pretend that the 2 or so times it happens a game would amount to anything more than the most minute of improvements.

Woah, woah, woah.
I am a TV fan, but that is complete BS.

Open the other eye.

Bit Harsh. The MC do see something many others don't. The big para makes sense and is hard to argue.

The second para has been an ongoing argument for .........................ever almost.

 

[vinum coupe]

Bit Harsh. The MC do see something many others don't. The big para makes sense and is hard to argue.

The second para has been an ongoing argument for .........................ever almost.

My response was in regard to what I bolded.

"He only gives the panicked handball when he's about to get smashed in a tackle"

 

[Cataholic]

It seems our ruck, and possibly 2014 final hopes, now rest almost solely on HMac, given Simpson isn't available for the rest of the year apparently.

A ruckman was a high priority for us in the draft / trade, but I reckon its just become the highest priority.

 

[catempire]

My response was in regard to what I bolded.

"He only gives the panicked handball when he's about to get smashed in a tackle"

Sometimes it's not panicked, it's just shit. But plenty of players do that. The problem is choosing to dispose of it almost immediately and not having the awareness that a few quick steps could put a gap on the congestion and allow him to use his very good footskills.

 

[The rabbi]

Still deserve the accolade even if we know he is a quality poster Rab.

Yep. My short quip is an acknowledgement of the quality (and consistency) of his post(s). Although expressed in my own rather reserved way.

 

[Cataholic]

In WELL's I trust. If thats trading out a pick for a player so be it.

And this trade you've hinted at - it wouldn't be a ruckman by chance?

We need one!

 

[OzeSparky]

Ok has been stated that Simpson is injured for the year.
We need a Ruck next year bad.
Who's available?

 

[catempire]

Ok has been stated that Simpson is injured for the year.
We need a Ruck next year bad.
Who's available?

Nathan Vardy and some yet to be determined 18 year old.