List Mgmt. 2023 Draft Thread - Part I

[Mowman]

Spoils a good walk

Why would you walk if you’re not golfing

 

[Significant]

Trying to find out if Hugo is Riley Garcia's younger brother (Bulldogs player)

 

[Mowman]

Mowman one more time for me, Big Hoss?

I can’t subscribe out of principle.

Since when have you had principles ?

How the AFL academy system has reached a breaking point in the eyes of clubs​

With the Suns landing four academy guns in this year’s draft, JAY CLARK looks at the system that clubs believe ‘has reached a breaking point’. Plus the numbers behind every team’s academy picks.
Jay Clark
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@ClarkyHeraldSun
6 min read
November 20, 2023 - 6:00AM
News Corp Australia Sports Newsroom50 comments
42:33
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Damien Hardwick might be the happiest man in football this week.
The new Gold Coast coach has taken over the most under-performed club of the past 10 years and will welcome in Monday night’s national draft four academy stars in the first 25 picks.
There’s tackle-made key forward Jed Walter, who recruiters say will be “the most feared forward in the game”, running ruck machine Ethan Read, livewire Jake Rogers and explosive defender Will Graham.
Said a rival talent scout this week: “People don’t realise it yet, but they (Suns) have got Josh Kennedy, Dean Cox and Daniel Kerr coming through, if they can develop them right.”
While the headlines have focused on West Coast’s plot for Harley Reid and Daniel Curtin, recruiters believe the Suns’ quartet are really the big story of the 2023 draft as tension increases about the hit-and-miss academy program.

Jed Walter is going to be a star. Picture: Getty Images
Next year, the Suns have access to dynamite ballwinner Leo Lombard, an underage All-Australian midfielder who remarkably played VFL this year aged only 16 – and athletic forward Caleb Nancarrow.
He’s a Jamarra Ugle-Hagan type.
Maybe, that’s two more guns.
But as much as the AFL is desperate to see Gold Coast climb the ladder under ‘Dimma’ after a disastrous decade - where the Suns lost a string of superstars to rivals at trade time – clubs believe the academy system has reached a breaking point.
Herald Sun analysis shows that while the four northern states clubs have hit the talent jackpot through its academies – snaring Callum Mills, Errol Gulden, Tom Green and Eric Hipwood among many others over the past decade– many other clubs have missed out.

A decade of AFL Academies: Where your club stands​

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Adelaide Crows​

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Brisbane Lions​

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Carlton Blues​

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Collingwood Magpies​

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Essendon Bombers​

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Fremantle Dockers​

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Geelong Cats​

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Gold Coast Suns​

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GWS Giants​

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Hawthorn Hawks​

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Melbourne Demons​

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North Melbourne​

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Port Adelaide​

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Richmond Tigers​

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St Kilda Saints​

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Sydney Swans​

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West Coast Eagles​

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Western Bulldogs​

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Over the past eight years since the next generation academies were introduced for the 14 other clubs, four of those clubs – Melbourne, Geelong, Carlton and Adelaide – have taken only two players each via their own academy.
And the two Cats (Ted Clohesy and Blake Schlensog) have played one game combined, the two Crows (Tariek Newchurch and James Borlase) managed four matches and the two Blues (Domanic Akuei and Harrison Macreadie) appeared nine times.
Essendon has picked five players totaling nine games and West Coast has also taken five for 14 matches since 2016.
That is in contrast to Western Bulldogs who landed superstar forward Jamarra Ugle-Hagan from Framlingham and Collingwood’s snatch-and-grab for premiership defender Isaac Quaynor, from Oakleigh.
But since those two came through, the rules have changed.
Now clubs have no rights to any of their own academy players taken in the top-40, so all the guns which come through the NGA’s (excluding Queensland and New South Wales players) can go anywhere, anyway.
So it’s been a case of boom or bust, feast or famine on the academy front.
Of the 124 AFL players taken in the academy system over the past decade, 43 have played 0 games. That is one third.
Seventy-two academy products have played 10 AFL games or less.
Five have made All-Australian. There are about 15 stars active.

Errol Gulden was a big academy win for the Swans. Picture: Phil Hillyard
But it’s what is coming through the pipelines at Gold Coast over the next 12 months and disbelief at the current restrictions on clubs claiming their own players inside the first 40 picks that has fueled suggestions the academy system is “broken” or at best, more compromised than it has ever been before.
As Port Adelaide football boss Chris Davies said: “The AFL has some decisions to make with regard to what they want the draft to actually look like.”
“This year and the next few years are going to be highly compromised.”
As things stand, the 14 clubs with next generation academies don’t have guaranteed access to any of their own academy players if they are picked in the first 40 selections, to prevent clubs from landing more Ugle-Hagans or Quaynors at the pointy end of the draft.
The whole point of the next generation academy system was to teach players who weren’t brought up on Australian Rules the game, but in Ugle-Hagan and Quaynor’s case, the Dogs and Pies just got lucky.
They were stars of their junior teams, and were most likely always going to be guns, and taken early in the draft, regardless of their academy status. The Dogs and Pies won the draft lottery, there.
So the AFL clamped down in 2021 and 2022. Instead of having free reign, clubs now only have exclusive rights to their next academy stars after pick 40.
It is why Melbourne missed out on Gold Coast’s Mac Andrew, and St Kilda watched on as Hawthorn took Cam McKenzie last year.
Dagger blows.
This year, West Coast academy product Lance Collard could be taken well inside the first 40 by a rival, and North will miss out on Tasmanian NGA star Riley Sanders.

Tew Jiath is one of many NGA players who are unlikely to be drafted to their academy aligned club. Picture: Getty Images
Hawks have Tew Jiath, there’s the Dogs’ Luamon Lual, Fremantle’s Mitch Edwards and Sydney’s Caiden Cleary all in the mix.
It is why the Eagles want the system changed to be more advantageous to the clubs who spend the time and money helping develop junior players from their zone who have an Indigenous or multi-cultural background.
“We have been liaising with the league and we have written to them a number of times to see whether there is an opportunity to change the rules,” former CEO Trevor Nisbett said.
“It needs to be changed. There is such a disparity between the rules now, between the categories – it needs to change.”
The top-40 restriction is in contrast to the rights of the four northern-states academies – Brisbane, Gold Coast, Sydney and GWS Giants - who have exclusive access to all of their academy players so long as they have enough draft pick points to match.
It is how Sydney plucked best and fairest winner Errol Gulden with pick 32.
Geelong was the bidder.
And why Gold Coast have banked picks 24, 26, 27, 32, 36, 38, 66, 71, 74, 84 to land prized quartet Walters, Read, Rogers and Graham on Monday night to help kick-start the club’s finals charge under Hardwick.
There are some good intentions, clearly, to develop players in regional areas, put Sherrins instead of soccer balls in kids’ hands, and generally spread the love and participation of Australian Rules.
For the New South Wales and Queensland clubs, the northern academies help supply crucial local talent – to help bolster retention rates – and provide a chance to compete against the Victorian heavyweights where the bulk of the AFL talent originates.
So for the Swans and Suns etc, the academies give them a chance to develop and keep local stars. Combat the cost of living.
But the opposing view suggests the academy system is terribly lopsided – despite the historical advantage Victorian clubs have with the father-son rule.
That’s Collingwood’s Nick and Josh Daicos, Geelong superstars Gary Ablett and Tom Hawkins, and Bulldogs’ Tom Liberatore, to name only a few.

Collingwood have done pretty well to get Nick and Josh Daicos via the father-son rule. Picture: Getty Images
But the NGA areas – and the boundaries which divide them – are a source of recruiting angst.
To nominate for a club’s next generation academy in Victoria, South Australia and Western Australia, the junior player either need to be Indigenous or have one parent born overseas.
But they must reside in the clubs’ zones, which is a mix of country and metro areas drawn up by the AFL using mystery metrics in 2016.
Collingwood and St Kilda (Mitch Owens and Marcus Windhager) have fertile slivers of eastern and bayside Melbourne, which takes in highly-regarded private schools, while Western Bulldogs (Ugle-Hagan) have a huge chunk of western Victoria taking in Ballarat and Warrnambool.
North Melbourne (Tarryn Thomas) has Tasmania and Hawthorn (Changkuoth Jiath) has a huge stretch of Eastern Victoria stretching from Burwood to far-east Gippsland.
Northern Territory is split between six clubs. But it is hit and miss.
And the motivations behind the academy system have been debated behind closed doors.
Said one recruiter, in terms of footy talent, “some of the next generation academy zones have been really barren catchment areas”.
“If we are honest about it, the next generation academies are a political exercise to try and off-set the significant advantage the northern-states clubs have with their academies, and all the players they get access to that other clubs can’t touch,” he said.
“It isn’t a fair or equitable system.”
But the northern states clubs say the same about the father-son rule and the go-home factor for Victorian players.
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Do you think the academy system should be changed?​

[COLOR=var(--listitem-color)][COLOR=var(--listitem-color)]Yes it's unfair on 14 teams
No the northern clubs need a leg up[/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.26)]Cast your vote[/COLOR][/COLOR]
The next generation academy zone boundaries were drawn based on a “range of factors” including population statistics, according to former AFL operations manager and current Suns’ CEO Mark Evans.
“It is important to note that hubs have been established on the basis of multicultural populations in each state,” Evans said in 2016.
But with the current top-40 restriction, the question is now being asked as part of a league-wide review - why should clubs put in the time, money and investment in NGA academies if they can only get their hands on late prospects and rookie equivalents?
It is why there is a strong push to reduce the top-40 restriction to only top-10 or top-20, so more clubs can get their hands on more of their own NGA players.
Otherwise, their interest in driving the NGA programs (for children aged 10 and upwards) may dwindle.

More Coverage​

Top draftee’s run in with ‘feral’ private school hecklers
Phantom Draft: The clubs set to pounce on top 30 bolters​

After all, there are serious development programs, which require a decent level of investment, and then there are kick-and-giggle clinics.
In any case, the money sits outside the football department cap, but it still costs.
And the rewards are significantly varied.
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[sammm]

Sorry if I've missed it, but how many spots will we have in the rookie draft

And do we have a spot for SSP?

 

[gringo2011]

Sidenote... How's the bloke the Dogs took at Pick 47.
Gonna need to see that ID thanks champ. His age rivals his pick number...
View attachment 1858251

Looks like Joel Selwood trying to get himself drafted again.

 

[sammm]

Exactly.

Club had a feeling this would happen which is why they were willing to let Gresh and Billings go.

I doubt that true. Schoenmakers is a backman

 

[sasaint]

Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Isn’t that the plot line in the movie Pretty Woman?

 

[saintmike65]

There is much to say for rehabilitation; what he is alleged to have done is pretty horrible, but he's got a chance to grow and may even use that experience to grow. He's certainly in a better environment to grow than he would have had staying in Launceston as a jock kid in his little gang.

For context, there was an oppo supporter in one of the main board matchday threads this year claiming that he hated Mason Wood because Wood bullied this bloke's current girlfriend when they were at school together because she'd turned him down back in the day. And look what a citizen Wood is now, half the team is living with him to get their s**t together.

Think about Dusty, think about JDG, think about half the league probably.

I wasn't into us drafting Arie because of his past and because I didn't see what else he brought to the table besides his superboot, but now we have him, he has my support and I hope he makes it as a player and more importantly as a citizen.

Fair to say us picking Arie has polarised supporters but we all hope it works out.
Pick 63 is often a fail…let’s hope he becomes a good player for years to come!

 

[gringo2011]

The true story is the Saints boys were lighting there own shirts on fire and the dwarf held his out to get lit. It was all mucking around and the Saints boys offered to pay the dwarf for the shirt.. He laughed and said no he asked for it.
The next day the dwarfs manager or partner found out and it escalated. Think it was the manager. Was told by the Saints welfare manager and he's very honest.

That little campaigner Arthur tried to fight me and started to hit me over the head with a pool cue because I was too much of a stud and smashed him in a pool comp back in the day. He was a very unpleasant and aggressive little man. Anyone brave enough to set the little prick on fire deserves a medal.

He was like some old lady's aggressive little dog that shreds the cuffs of your jeans and you can't boot it across the room because of society's oppressive moral code. Pretty sure back in the old testament there is probably some rule that lets you fight aggressive little people. Perhaps Clint got biblical on him.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Fair to say us picking Arie has polarised supporters but we all hope it works out.
Pick 63 is often a fail…let’s hope he becomes a good player for years to come!

He was Pick 62 actually - and guess who was the last Pick 62 to play more than 100 AFL games - Zaine Cordy.

And the last player who was actually selected @ Pick 62 by the Saints was Andrew Thompson - who played just the lazy 221 games with the Saints.

 

[bergholt]

Trying to find out if Hugo is Riley Garcia's younger brother (Bulldogs player)

Riley's from WA and Hugo's from Greenvale so unlikely

 

[gringo2011]

Can’t remember his name but didn’t a WA kid slide from the 1st round projection and go undrafted? Then got picked up by the Hawks the next year, quit and ended up in a jail.

Sam Hayes that just got delisted by Port went late after being a potential top 10 pick.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Angus Hastie coming up on SEN shortly

 

[Yawkey way]

Angus Hastie coming up on SEN shortly

Loved that pick, backline of the future is starting to look very good.

 

[_Maximus_12]

To nab 3 players rated in many people’s first round is an exceptional result for the club given our draft hand. Let’s hope they fulfil their talent

 

[BrutThough]

Clearly identified a need for speed and went all in on it. Very happy with the types of players we've ended up with.

Re the rumours - whether or not it is true in this case, that type of bullying does occur very rapidly in society and many people who are victims of it are no longer here because of it. Even if it is just taking the piss out of rumours, people with disabilities shouldn't be used as a joke so you can get a few meaningless likes on the internet.

 

[gringo2011]

Clearly identified a need for speed and went all in on it. Very happy with the types of players we've ended up with.

Re the rumours - whether or not it is true in this case, that type of bullying does occur very rapidly in society and many people who are victims of it are no longer here because of it. Even if it is just taking the piss out of rumours, people with disabilities shouldn't be used as a joke so you can get a few meaningless likes on the internet.

I think it's just the Aussie way. Try to laugh your way out of uncomfortable situations rather than deal with them.

Anyway. He deserves a chance at redemption and even if he doesn't he only has to play well and meet his contract terms, not turn himself into a moral crusader as part of his reparations. What ever he's done he probably needs to make up to the people involved, not the rest of us.

One of my kids was bulled enough at school to move. No-one at the school could fix it and the whole cohort seemed to be out of control. The school reckoned it was one bad year and they lost about 30 students to other schools. It's interesting that the culture that you are in can make certain things acceptable and others don't. Hopefully our internal culture helps guide all of our young guys.

Back when I went to school, you got bullied early on and then by the end of school you'd become the bullies. It wan't good and there were things that I wish I'd done different. I used "humour" to put people down and it's a real cowards way of bullying. I think I'm a moral person now and do my bit to help others but I acknowledge that I was a bit of a campaigner at one point.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

I'm all for mature age recruits but this is surely pushing it...

 

[austinnn]

I think it's just the Aussie way. Try to laugh your way out of uncomfortable situations rather than deal with them.

Anyway. He deserves a chance at redemption and even if he doesn't he only has to play well and meet his contract terms, not turn himself into a moral crusader as part of his reparations. What ever he's done he probably needs to make up to the people involved, not the rest of us.

One of my kids was bulled enough at school to move. No-one at the school could fix it and the whole cohort seemed to be out of control. The school reckoned it was one bad year and they lost about 30 students to other schools. It's interesting that the culture that you are in can make certain things acceptable and others don't. Hopefully our internal culture helps guide all of our young guys.

Back when I went to school, you got bullied early on and then by the end of school you'd become the bullies. It wan't good and there were things that I wish I'd done different. I used "humour" to put people down and it's a real cowards way of bullying. I think I'm a moral person now and do my bit to help others but I acknowledge that I was a bit of a campaigner at one point.

Yep, it was similar for me. I was thinking that we should start posting Stories of us bullying people at school on Arie's welcome thread, owning our past errors as a form of solidarity with victims and guys like Arie who **** up as teens.

Then I thought no one would be brave enough to do it and call me a bleeding heart blah blah blah. But I'm game if anyone else is.

 

[XhazzafootyX]

Do we have any list spots open? Let’s hope we pick up a kid and not McKenzie

 

[Verdun66]

Hastie sounds a good kid. Just listened to his interview. What a time these draftees are having. Very exciting for them. I do like his highlights. Looking forward to watching him play.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Do we have any list spots open? Let’s hope we pick up a kid and not McKenzie

Who’s left? O’Leary one that we have been linked with.

 

[Significant]

Who’s left? O’Leary one that we have been linked with.

Would love Van Der Huevel

 

[Joffaboy]

Taste the tears

I agree wholeheartedly with him.

We have an NGA called Cole I think who is a real goer, but if current rules persist we will miss out on.

 

[BrutThough]

I think it's just the Aussie way. Try to laugh your way out of uncomfortable situations rather than deal with them.

Anyway. He deserves a chance at redemption and even if he doesn't he only has to play well and meet his contract terms, not turn himself into a moral crusader as part of his reparations. What ever he's done he probably needs to make up to the people involved, not the rest of us.

One of my kids was bulled enough at school to move. No-one at the school could fix it and the whole cohort seemed to be out of control. The school reckoned it was one bad year and they lost about 30 students to other schools. It's interesting that the culture that you are in can make certain things acceptable and others don't. Hopefully our internal culture helps guide all of our young guys.

Back when I went to school, you got bullied early on and then by the end of school you'd become the bullies. It wan't good and there were things that I wish I'd done different. I used "humour" to put people down and it's a real cowards way of bullying. I think I'm a moral person now and do my bit to help others but I acknowledge that I was a bit of a campaigner at one point.

Absolutely, every deserves a second chance and the chance to learn from their mistakes. It's not on us to decide what his personal moral character is. There are going to be shit people who are extremely talented footballers but as a supporter, I think it is also natural to want the players your kids idolise to be decent people. And as a club, I hope we give everyone who walks through the door the tools to develop beyond who are they as teenagers.

I think everyone has moments they aren't proud of in their past and will say shitty things in the present but dont think that prevents people from calling out the poor behaviour they see. Disabilities aren't a joke or a term to be used to degrade other. Bullying is deadly far too often. It may be uncomfortable to call out in the moment and feel a bit hypocritical when we all know we are guilty of it at some point, but that's the only way it gets less ingrained in our culture.

Anyway, let's get back to footy.