AFL RULES _Deliberate out of Bounds

[The rabbi]

I could not find an appropriate prefix for this thread. I will leave it to the Mods to find an appropriate place as we do not have a prefix for "Rule Discussion". (If there is one, then I am unaware of it)

It is suggested that the term "Deliberate Out of Bounds" is misleading when you take into account what umpires are actually looking for when the ball is forced, kicked, punched OoB.
Chamberlain explains what umpires look for with deliberate out of bounds
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/08...pires-look-for-with-deliberate-out-of-bounds/

 

[winty]

Using this rationale....

“So, the guidelines that we’re given now is that the player with the football, or who’s handballing the football, knocking the football, kicking the football, they have to demonstrate a sufficient intent to keep the ball in play,” he said.

Wouldn't that mean if a player kicks the ball, and an opposition player is closest to the ball and could pick it up but chooses not to and lets it roll out of bounds, does that mean they've let the ball go out deliberately and should be penalised? After all, they haven't demonstrated a sufficient attempt to keep the ball in play...

 

[goyoucatters]

Using this rationale....



Wouldn't that mean if a player kicks the ball, and an opposition player is closest to the ball and could pick it up but chooses not to and lets it roll out of bounds, does that mean they've let the ball go out deliberately and should be penalised? After all, they haven't demonstrated a sufficient attempt to keep the ball in play...

Absolutely.

This happens far too regularly at the moment, and is totally against the spirit of the game.

 

[xtatik222k]

Personally, I think we should just do what all other sports do: If the ball goes out of bounds and it touched you last, it's a free against you. Then the gray area is entirely taken away from the umpires. This would be a huge positive, because umpires struggle greatly with grey area in my opinion.

 

[Turbocat]

Intent.... they should use that term for holdinbg the ball. Too easy for those with the ball to roll to the ground and stall it. WC with NicNat loved it.

 

[FredLeDeux]

A Free Kick shall be awarded against a Player who .... kicks, handballs or forces the football over the Boundary Line and
does not demonstrate sufficient intent to keep the ball in play

So just letting it roll or bounce out is not a free kick.

Nor is it a free kick when Blicavs, Taylor, Stewart, O'Connor, Henry or Kolo fumble it over the line, because everyone knows they are all deadset rotten ball-handlers, who suffer from intermittent palsy.

 

[jim boy]

After all, they haven't demonstrated a sufficient attempt to keep the ball in play...

And there is the problem - "sufficient attempt" to ascertain that, the umpire needs to make a subjective call, what was the player intending. Obvious is obvious, but there isn't a line the sand when it comes into Subjective and anything not obvious becomes contentious. Footy needs to get rid of subjective rules and focus on objective rules, where grey areas dont exist. Sometimes it might some unfair, but so what, the players, the umpires, the spectators all know what is against the rules. There is too much grey in the game

 

[Sttew]

Let’s face it, without the crowd chanting, “D E L I B E R A T E” the umpires are having to guess

 

[winty]

Let’s face it, without the crowd chanting, “D E L I B E R A T E” the umpires are having to guess

They're guessing most of the time on every decision they make...

 

[The rabbi]

And there is the problem - "sufficient attempt" to ascertain that, the umpire needs to make a subjective call, what was the player intending. Obvious is obvious, but there isn't a line the sand when it comes into Subjective and anything not obvious becomes contentious. Footy needs to get rid of subjective rules and focus on objective rules, where grey areas don't exist. Sometimes it might some unfair, but so what, the players, the umpires, the spectators all know what is against the rules. There is too much grey in the game

A Pommy mate of mine (now deceased) loved Aussie Rules and the Cats. But his main complaint with the game was that the rules were to open to interpretation. I think that he is correct. But given the nature of this unique game, particularly with its body contact, I just don't think that you get around the subjectivity. A lot easier with a game like soccer.

 

[Partridge]

Let’s face it, without the crowd chanting, “D E L I B E R A T E” the umpires are having to guess

That’s easy then, don’t guess.

More often than not players actually do try to keep it in. The amount of times players legitimately put the ball over the line is very few.

 

[Cataholic]

It's funny, bewildering and infuriating to see one of the little green men watch a guy kick it over his shoulder from the middle of a congested pack, have it bounce 30 - 40m away, take a leg break, go OOB's and he adjudicates it as 'deliberate'.

The sheer lack of understanding in that process of judgement is laughable, and concerning. The game is being white anted from within.

 

[dazbroncos]

It's funny, bewildering and infuriating to see one of the little green men watch a guy kick it over his shoulder from the middle of a congested pack, have it bounce 30 - 40m away, take a leg break, go OOB's and he adjudicates it as 'deliberate'.

The sheer lack of understanding in that process of judgement is laughable, and concerning. The game is being white anted from within.

I luv the ones in particluar that bounce 5 times.... as if the player has any real inout after bounce 3 lol

and then the umps start running faster lol

GO Catters

 

[Cataholic]

I luv the ones in particluar that bounce 5 times.... as if the player has any real inout after bounce 3 lol

and then the umps start running faster lol

GO Catters

If the umps thought about it clearly, even if for just a moment, they'd realise just how stupid and out of touch that interpretation is.

But I think their judgement is clouded by the desire to be 'seen' on field, and moments such as these give them the perfect excuse to wave their arms around, stop the game, and have everyone look at them.

 

[The rabbi]

If the umps thought about it clearly, even if for just a moment, they'd realise just how stupid and out of touch that interpretation is.

I am not sure if the Umpires are completely responsible for the application of the rules. Don't they get instructed from on high?

 

[Cataholic]

I am not sure if the Umpires are completely responsible for the application of the rules. Don't they get instructed from on high?

Yes, they're given the rulebook and instructed about the 'spirit' of a rule, but in the heat of the moment it is the ump who decides how they'll interpret the rule against a specific action by a player.

 

[Partridge]

If the umps thought about it clearly, even if for just a moment, they'd realise just how stupid and out of touch that interpretation is.

But I think their judgement is clouded by the desire to be 'seen' on field, and moments such as these give them the perfect excuse to wave their arms around, stop the game, and have everyone look at them.

I don't think it's that. It's the league's insane paranoia that you can never have play stop, ever, for a moment. It's the same reason ridiculous holding the ball decisions are paid when a pack sits on one player's head.

 

[Spearman]

Remember Ray's explanation, 'did enough to keep it in'. I think if the disposal is not obviously aimed at anyone in particular and it goes out, they might ping it. Regardless of the tortuous route it might take to oob, kicking or handballing blindly ticks the ump's first mental box on the call.

 

[jim boy]

A Pommy mate of mine (now deceased) loved Aussie Rules and the Cats. But his main complaint with the game was that the rules were to open to interpretation. I think that he is correct. But given the nature of this unique game, particularly with its body contact, I just don't think that you get around the subjectivity. A lot easier with a game like soccer.

You'll never get completely rid of subjectivity, but the less the better. And even when it gets to objectivity, the less line 'ball line calls' you have to make, the better, for example, did the ball brush the goal posts as it went through? Who cares? Call it a goal and move on with life.

 

[catempire]

The one against Membrey tonight stunk.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

this problem has already been solved. SANFL last disposal rule is far clearer to adjudicate and gets the desired outcome that no one intentionally goes for the boundary.

If it makes it over as the result of a contested situation then ball in. If not then no one cares what you intended, you kicked or handpassed last before it went out then free against.

I'd like to see 25m penalties rather than 50m as well but that's another discussion.

 

[Cataholic]

this problem has already been solved. SANFL last disposal rule is far clearer to adjudicate and gets the desired outcome that no one intentionally goes for the boundary.

If it makes it over as the result of a contested situation then ball in. If not then no one cares what you intended, you kicked or handpassed last before it went out then free against.

I'd like to see 25m penalties rather than 50m as well but that's another discussion.

What's the adjudication if a guy somehow kicks it forward 30m out of a pack, it bounces at will then rolls out?

 

[CatToTheFuture]

What's the adjudication if a guy somehow kicks it forward 30m out of a pack, it bounces at will then rolls out?

Free kick against

 

[Cataholic]

Free kick against

Ok, so you're suggesting they take any adjudication of 'intent' out of it and simply punish whoever touches it last.......

Coukd work, though I can see quick kicks out of congestion becoming extinct.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Ok, so you're suggesting they take any adjudication of 'intent' out of it and simply punish whoever touches it last.......

Coukd work, though I can see quick kicks out of congestion becoming extinct.

Not touched last though. Punched over, spilling from a pack, rushed over when being chased down all fine. You can watch some games on YouTube to see how they do it. Pretty clear on the adjudication