Preview Changes: R3 v Port Adelaide, Saturday April 1, 7.00pm ACDT at Adelaide Oval

[George Kramer]

Sorry - trusting your eyes isn't evidence.

Everyone thinks they're an expert. Most people VASTLY overestimate their own opinions.

"But it looked that way to me" isn't facts. Obviously that's incredibly subjective and will be skewed by personal biases. That's why we have numbers and statistics - so there's something objective to look at.

Yes we are seeing a clear example of this with your outlier opinion on this.

Speaking of facts. How many goals has Dawson kicked playing defence and how many when he was playing wing?

Also can you define the role of a wingman please.

 

[George Kramer]

I'm just stating facts.

You've clung onto this "Dawson will get dragged deep into defence" thing multiple times. But it's only happened once or twice.

It's not 1976 anymore. Defenders have responsibility, but they don't play man on man. Often they're given far more attacking license than many midfielders or forwards.

That's especially true of Dawson. He's often released to be an attacking weapon - I think last week he had 5 uncontested possessions for every 1 contested possession.

He's not there to be a nullifying piece. We have others for that. He's an attacking weapon in the defensive half for us - just as he was for Sydney.

But look - BigFooty isn't a place for changing people's minds. You have your view, and that's cool.

How many goals has Dawson kicked playing as a defender versus when he’s played wing both for us and Sydney.

So when Dawson is standing next to a forward and trying to stop that forward kicking goals, he’s actually playing like a wingman. Ok get it now.

 

[1970crow]

And no chance they'll be playing in another 5 year's, every chance Milers may be ...i.e. in times when we may be genuine contenders.

Milera looks shot to me. We carried him last year, which was probably fair enough. But after another preseason, he looks no better physically. I know he won’t be dropped, but I’d be very surprised if he elevated himself above the last handful selected contributor. The problem we have as a club is that our senior players tend to spend their last couple of years barely, or not, deserving of selection based upon performance. Tex previous 2 years a very notable exception.

 

[AFC979810]

Milera looks shot to me. We carried him last year, which was probably fair enough. But after another preseason, he looks no better physically. I know he won’t be dropped, but I’d be very surprised if he elevated himself above the last handful selected contributor. The problem we have as a club is that our senior players tend to spend their last couple of years barely, or not, deserving of selection based upon performance. Tex previous 2 years a very notable exception.

I think you are right.

Unfortunately these long term injuries really seem to stifle development. Otten was never the same, Hentschel was never the same, Doedee and Milera both haven't progressed as they should have.

 

[Mostyn]

How many goals has Dawson kicked playing as a defender versus when he’s played wing both for us and Sydney.

So when Dawson is standing next to a forward and trying to stop that forward kicking goals, he’s actually playing like a wingman. Ok get it now.

Dawson kicked nine goals playing as a wingman for Sydney, with a third of those coming in a couple of quarters of football.

He kicked ten goals as a defender for Adelaide.

If your argument is that Dawson is being forced to play the role of a nullifying defender, then there's not much point discussing it because you're not arguing in good faith. It's obvious he's considered an attacking weapon behind the ball for us.

It's obvious he was also that for Sydney. I've presented the facts that proved that.

I feel you will never change your view and will argue yourself into circles to not have to, so it's okay for us to just not discuss this any further.

I don't have any other facts to give you to support my point that the attacking role he played behind the ball at Sydney as a wingman is similar to what he plays for us, other than showing you he spent exactly the same amount of time in the defensive half for both teams, that he scored similar amounts of goals, and that his heat maps showed his possessions were in similar parts of the ground.

 

[George Kramer]

Dawson kicked nine goals playing as a wingman for Sydney, with a third of those coming in a couple of quarters of football.

He kicked ten goals as a defender for Adelaide.

If your argument is that Dawson is being forced to play the role of a nullifying defender, then there's not much point discussing it because you're not arguing in good faith. It's obvious he's considered an attacking weapon behind the ball for us.

It's obvious he was also that for Sydney. I've presented the facts that proved that.

I feel you will never change your view and will argue yourself into circles to not have to, so it's okay for us to just not discuss this any further.

I don't have any other facts to give you to support my point that the attacking role he played behind the ball at Sydney as a wingman is similar to what he plays for us, other than showing you he spent exactly the same amount of time in the defensive half for both teams, that he scored similar amounts of goals, and that his heat maps showed his possessions were in similar parts of the ground.

No, Dawson did not kick his goals for us as a defender.

You clearly don’t understand the difference between a wingman pushing back into defence and a defender.

And no my view isn’t Dawson isn’t solely playing as a nullifying defender, never said that. But as a defender he is accountable for his forward. He just can’t let them be free and kick goals whilst he runs up the ground repeatedly.

And it’s not me who has to change my view, clearly given the number of posters arguing against you, it’s clear you’re the one digging in and won’t change their view. That’s okay, but it’s just a bizarre opinion and for someone who posts on a football forum and follows footy, to have this opinion and then stick to it doggedly, well that’s weird.

 

[Scorpus]

No, Dawson did not kick his goals for us as a defender.

100% true. Strong correlation between Dawson playing less time in defense and kicking more goals. I've added his goal tally on the right

 

[George Kramer]

100% true. Strong correlation between Dawson playing less time in defense and kicking more goals. I've added his goal tally on the right

View attachment 1645967

Thankyou. Mostyn facts hey? You still going to dig your heels in?

And even the games he had high defensive time, some he was moved forward or up to the wing late

 

[Scorpus]

Just to make it super clear:

JORDAN DAWSON ADELAIDE 2022



JORDAN DAWSON

12

Jordan Dawson

Age

27

Ht

191cm

Wt

91kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.0

4star

K

11.4

4star

HB

5.7

4star

M

4.8

5star

T

2.8

4star

CL

0.6

3star

D

15.7

4star

K

10.9

4star

HB

4.9

3star

M

2.9

3star

T

2.0

3star

CL

0.4

3star

D

11.8

3star

K

7.8

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

5.0

5star

T

3.0

5star

CL

0.6

3star

SYDNEY 1ST HALF OF 2021



JORDAN DAWSON

12

Jordan Dawson

Age

27

Ht

191cm

Wt

91kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.0

4star

K

11.4

4star

HB

5.7

4star

M

4.8

5star

T

2.8

4star

CL

0.6

3star

D

15.7

4star

K

10.9

4star

HB

4.9

3star

M

2.9

3star

T

2.0

3star

CL

0.4

3star

D

11.8

3star

K

7.8

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

5.0

5star

T

3.0

5star

CL

0.6

3star

SYDNEY 2ND HALF OF 2021

 

[Scorpus]

The heat maps make it super clear.

Adelaide
6 games wing
7 games defense
9 games defense and wing

Sydney Pre-Bye
10 games defense
3 games defense and wing

Sydney After-Bye
8 games wing
1 game defense
1 game defense and wing

 

[cleanhands]

Just to make it super clear:

JORDAN DAWSON ADELAIDE 2022

View attachment 1645977

JORDAN DAWSON SYDNEY 1ST HALF OF 2021

View attachment 1645978

JORDAN DAWSON SYDNEY 2ND HALF OF 2021

View attachment 1645979

I think someone just put you on ignore

 

[Scorpus]

Spoiler

Brodie Smith
8 games wing
5 games defense
8 games wing and defense

Spoiler

Tom Doedee
1 game wing
13 games defense
6 games wing and defense

So basically Dawson in 2022 played somewhat more defensively than Brodie Smith

33

Brodie Smith

Age

32

Ht

189cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.5

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

7.2

4star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.1

4star

MG

500.1

5star

D

17.1

4star

K

12.6

5star

HB

4.5

3star

M

3.5

3star

T

2.3

3star

MG

438.9

5star

D

17.2

5star

K

10.8

4star

HB

6.4

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

3.6

5star

, with Smith being the more offensive player. But Doedee more defensive than Dawson

 

[Mostyn]

I think someone just put you on ignore

If you mean me, I'd never put Scorpus on ignore.

Absolute quality poster.

 

[dogs105]

If you mean me, I'd never put Scorpus on ignore.

Absolute quality poster.

And you'd never see the GBU or changes threads...

 

[Mostyn]

The heat maps make it super clear.

Adelaide
6 games wing
7 games defense
9 games defense and wing

Sydney Pre-Bye
10 games defense
3 games defense and wing

Sydney After-Bye
8 games wing
1 game defense
1 game defense and wing

This is fantastic work.

THESE are the kinds of facts that make something worth debating.

Personally, I think a few of those games you've defined as wing for Sydney still have him spending nearly all of his time in the defensive half - but I have to acknowledge this work is really excellent.

Is the difference between what Sydney did with him and what we did so vast that it's worth people ranting and raving? I think that's still debatable - but you've used some great data to support your view that the roles WERE really different, and I really respect that.

 

[Scorpus]

And you'd never see the GBU or changes threads...

Good news, you can't ignore mods I'm pretty sure

 

[Scorpus]

This is fantastic work.

THESE are the kinds of facts that make something worth debating.

Personally, I think a few of those games you've defined as wing for Sydney still have him spending nearly all of his time in the defensive half - but I have to acknowledge this work is really excellent.

Is the difference between what Sydney did with him and what we did so vast that it's worth people ranting and raving? I think that's still debatable - but you've used some great data to support your view that the roles WERE really different, and I really respect that.

I think it's as simple as people wanting Dawson to play where he was best at Sydney. And he was best in the 2nd half of 2021 on a wing where he was elite

 

[George Kramer]

This is fantastic work.

THESE are the kinds of facts that make something worth debating.

Personally, I think a few of those games you've defined as wing for Sydney still have him spending nearly all of his time in the defensive half - but I have to acknowledge this work is really excellent.

Is the difference between what Sydney did with him and what we did so vast that it's worth people ranting and raving? I think that's still debatable - but you've used some great data to support your view that the roles WERE really different, and I really respect that.

Crikey, is that it? He shouldn’t have had to go to these lengths when everyone could see the difference in the two roles and you were being told by a few posters. You even derided me for not accepting your “facts”, that’s twice now on this topic.

What Scorpus produced supports those who watched the game which helped form our opinions and yet you mocked that and instead relied on your facts “heat maps”.

Where our best player and best attacking player is being played is worth criticising, even Blight did this week.

So you criticised me for not accepting your opinion, but even now you’ve not conceded, even with this additional evidence. Just a tad hypocritical.

 

[George Kramer]

I think it's as simple as people wanting Dawson to play where he was best at Sydney. And he was best in the 2nd half of 2021 on a wing where he was elite

And for our coach not to be back dumb decisions.

 

[Bearded Clam]

Good news, you can't ignore mods I'm pretty sure

Oh.. well… would ya have a listen to the big mod making himself sound all important and un-ignorable…

 

[George Kramer]

I think it's as simple as people wanting Dawson to play where he was best at Sydney. And he was best in the 2nd half of 2021 on a wing where he was elite

And for our coach not to make dumb decisions

 

[BunjiMac]

Walked past a bunch of the boys on Melbourne Street this morning having a coffee including Scholl and Gollant.

I was really surprised by how big Gollant looked and how small Scholl looked.

 

[Mostyn]

Crikey, is that it? He shouldn’t have had to go to these lengths when everyone could see the difference in the two roles and you were being told by a few posters. You even derided me for not accepting your “facts”, that’s twice now on this topic.

What Scorpus produced supports those who watched the game which helped form our opinions and yet you mocked that and instead relied on your facts “heat maps”.

Where our best player and best attacking player is being played is worth criticising, even Blight did this week.

So you criticised me for not accepting your opinion, but even now you’ve not conceded, even with this additional evidence. Just a tad hypocritical.

Hold on.

My view was that people were over the top in their ranting that Dawson played a vastly different role at Sydney and why can't the coaches just move him back to that.

I went through every game he played as a wingman at Sydney, tallied his time on ground in every zone and compared it to the same period at the Crows.

I had previously done the same thing with where he'd gotten his disposals.

It showed that Dawson spent 70% of his time in the defensive half at Sydney and 71% at Adelaide.

The argument to that ISN'T what you said - "yeah, but that doesn't feel like the truth". It doesn't matter what you think you saw or what your feelings are.

It matters if there's any evidence that counters what I showed. Because I didn't present my OPINION, I presented some numbers I researched. Which is exactly what Scorpus did in response.

 

[George Kramer]

No worries hard head

 

[Southerntakeover]

Hold on.

My view was that people were over the top in their ranting that Dawson played a vastly different role at Sydney and why can't the coaches just move him back to that.

I went through every game he played as a wingman at Sydney, tallied his time on ground in every zone and compared it to the same period at the Crows.

I had previously done the same thing with where he'd gotten his disposals.

It showed that Dawson spent 70% of his time in the defensive half at Sydney and 71% at Adelaide.

The argument to that ISN'T what you said - "yeah, but that doesn't feel like the truth". It doesn't matter what you think you saw or what your feelings are.

It matters if there's any evidence that counters what I showed. Because I didn't present my OPINION, I presented some numbers I researched. Which is exactly what Scorpus did in response.

Your "research" produced a less reliable result than what was capable of being gleaned by an ordinary person off initial impression. I'm not sure this is something to brag about.