Dustin Martin is better than Dangerfield

Royce Hafey

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Danger is Bishop Berkely to Martin's Wittgenstein.

No comparison really. One stands a giant amongst mortals, the other a pretender.


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'After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it -- "I refute it thus."'
 

DAlembert

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Richo wouldn’t even put himself in Dusty’s class. Just an uninformed statement.

Francis Bourke is a Richmond legend but he NEVER got close to a Dusty like season.

Where DAlembert really makes a fool
of himself though is in thinking that one of Busustow’s three season in the VFL was superior to Dusty’s 2017. Must’ve been the season where he won goal and mark of the year.
What 800 goals in a rubbish team and you don't think he is in Martins class. You must be 25 years of age your kidding yourself.
When did this all of a sudden become about one season. I think it is acknowledged that DM 2017 year was a career year for him. Over a full career I will take Bourke Bartlett...Royce Hart and PLENTY others ahead of Martin. But keep dreaming.
 

DAlembert

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Name a season that Richardson had that was better than Martin's 2017 season.

These are the only seasons which come close:

1995 - kicked 91 goals. Impressive, but not as noteworthy.

2008 - played on a wing, easier position.
0ne Season was never the argument. Richardson was a one man band I think u underestimate him. But heh thats ok.
 

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queensberryrules

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'After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it -- "I refute it thus."'
If one is a Cats supporter these days, one must not just believe in a god but seek one everywhere, even in a latter r1 pick.

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Back One Out

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Dusty at 6th in our best & fairest didn't make sense fair enough it's what Hardwick and the coaches say but you can't tell me with a straight face he was our 6th best player.. Dion deserved 1st no doubt but I would've had Martin 2nd.
Yeah, let's just ignore the Richmond coaches who gave every Richmond player a score between 0-5 after every game.
What the hell would they know? They're probably all just biased against Dusty

I'm sure your overall rating based on the general vibe is more accurate than the Richmond coaches' game-by-game ratings :laughing:
 

David_Full

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Yeah, let's just ignore the Richmond coaches who gave every Richmond player a score between 0-5 after every game.
What the hell would they know? They're probably all just biased against Dusty

I'm sure your overall rating based on the general vibe is more accurate than the Richmond coaches' game-by-game ratings :laughing:
I still don't agree with the Top 5. respect it though. coaches rate things differently than just impactful stuff Edwards probably got rated higher because of him captaining games and doing a real good job.
 

rmcq

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What 800 goals in a rubbish team and you don't think he is in Martins class. You must be 25 years of age your kidding yourself.
When did this all of a sudden become about one season. I think it is acknowledged that DM 2017 year was a career year for him. Over a full career I will take Bourke Bartlett...Royce Hart and PLENTY others ahead of Martin. But keep dreaming.
Martin’s full career is yet to be fully realised. So really, I’m personally extrapolating over an entire career, which could well include 1 or 2 more Grand Finals, 3 or 4 more finals series, and maybe even another Norm Smith.

Martin may go down as the greatest finals player the game has seen. So far he’s definitely eclipsed by Kevin Bartlett (and I imagine plenty of players from other teams).

His story is incomplete, but right now he looks like he’s going to be something special. Of course, this thread is only comparing 2 current players.
 

Partridge

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In what way? Martin is as decorated, even more decorated than some of these players. Two flags, two Norm Smiths, one brownlow medal. How many of those have all three? I think a lot of these players have just merely played for longer.
Could be a good discussion about Fyfe, and Selwood at his peak. But Martin’s finals record is pretty powerful. I’d have him comfortably ahead of the rest.
 

BF Tiger

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What? 800 goals in a rubbish team and you don't think he is in Martins class? You must be 25 years of age. Youre kidding yourself.
When did this all of a sudden become about one season? I think it is acknowledged that DM 2017 year was a career year for him. Over a full career I will take Bourke, Bartlett, Royce Hart and PLENTY others ahead of Martin. But keep dreaming.
Re: bolded (and corrected in red)... it was when you said this...
Many players have had as good a year as Martin in 2017 and your assertion that is an all time record is rubbish. Many players have had better years...Jezza..Matthews ...GAblett..Pratt..Coleman..John Greening ...Kevin Bartlett...Francis Bourke..Royce Hart...Richo....Rod Ashman...Peter Busustow ... Doug Wade..Tony Lockett..Wayne Carey...James Hird...Peter McKenna...Peter Hudson...James Bartel...Matt Scarlett...John Scarlett.....hundreds....
Now you stick to not knowing much about Geelong and I’ll stick to knowing plenty about Richmond.
 

Richo83

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0ne Season was never the argument.
Yeah it was. To quote you:

I think you need to learn what irony is ..nevertheless I agree he had a very good 2017. To say no player in history had as good a year is complete BS. And don't give me the downlow medal Norm smith BS. Two awards that in the scheme of a Team game mean Nada. When and who takes the downlow medal awarded by the umpires seriously..come on that's just funny. Football people like Kevin Sheedy and many others have laughed at this award for eons. Many players have had as good a year as Martin in 2017 and your assertion that is an all time record is rubbish. Many players have had better years...Jezza..Matthews ...GAblett..Pratt..Coleman..John Greening ...Kevin Bartlett...Francis Bourke..Royce Hart...Richo....Rod Ashman...Peter Busustow ... Doug Wade..Tony Lockett..Wayne Carey...James Hird...Peter McKenna...Peter Hudson...James Bartel...Matt Scarlett...John Scarlett.....hundreds....How long you been watching football about 5 Years I would say. Tool
You're literally saying Richardson has had as good a season as Martin's 2017 season. Richardson kicked 48 goals on the wing rotating forward. Martin kicked 36 goals playing main onballer and rotating into the midfield. If we had as good a midfielder as Martin at the time, Richmond could have left Richardson forward. But they didn't. Midfielders win games and goalkicking midfielders who can win contested ball and kick well are rare as hen's teeth. Martin makes his teammates better, he is by far the best player in a side which has won two flags with this group and has an amazing finals record.

Richardson was a one man band I think u underestimate him. But heh thats ok.
Not quite, but what Richmond was missing was a dominant player like Martin.
 

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Richo83

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Could be a good discussion about Fyfe, and Selwood at his peak. But Martin’s finals record is pretty powerful. I’d have him comfortably ahead of the rest.
I'm happy to entertain the idea that some of those have had better careers, but all of them? I think Hodge is a great player and his finals legacy is amazing. But his home and away form is somewhat patchy and he never put together a season where I thought that he was the best of that year. Nor did I ever see him as the best player in the competition, whereas I did with Martin at the end of 2017.

Selwood is a good player, but it's noticeable that Martin is a better player than Selwood was at the same age. Pendlebury is roughly in the same boat.
 

DAlembert

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Yeah it was. To quote you:



You're literally saying Richardson has had as good a season as Martin's 2017 season. Richardson kicked 48 goals on the wing rotating forward. Martin kicked 36 goals playing main onballer and rotating into the midfield. If we had as good a midfielder as Martin at the time, Richmond could have left Richardson forward. But they didn't. Midfielders win games and goalkicking midfielders who can win contested ball and kick well are rare as hen's teeth. Martin makes his teammates better, he is by far the best player in a side which has won two flags with this group and has an amazing finals record.



Not quite, but what Richmond was missing was a dominant player like Martin.
BS. There is 22 in a team. You need probably 18 good players to compete at GF level. He might have got the NS but he was NOT your best player on the day.
 

woota

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So far, not one richmond supporter has been willing to answer my question about dusty: why does he always try to kick the ball on the outside of his foot, and why does he always snap the ball from set shots when a normal drop punt would suffice?
 

dustysnecktattoo

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So far, not one richmond supporter has been willing to answer my question about dusty: why does he always try to kick the ball on the outside of his foot, and why does he always snap the ball from set shots when a normal drop punt would suffice?
Isn’t this common for a lot of players now? Almost more common that a normal drop punt
 

Bazzar

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Dusty at 6th in our best & fairest didn't make sense fair enough it's what Hardwick and the coaches say but you can't tell me with a straight face he was our 6th best player.. Dion deserved 1st no doubt but I would've had Martin 2nd.
Interesting to compare richmond best and fairest to the aflca votes

B&F
1 Prestia
2 Edwards
3 Grimes
4 Vlastuin
5 Lynch
6 Dusty
7 Houli
8 Lambert
9 Astbury
10 Castagna and Rioli

AFLCA votes
1 Dusty
2 Prestia
3 Edwards
4 Lynch
5 Houli
6 Lambert
7 Grimes
8 Vlastuin
9 Cotchin
10 Ellis
 

BF Tiger

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So far, not one richmond supporter has been willing to answer my question about dusty: why does he always try to kick the ball on the outside of his foot, and why does he always snap the ball from set shots when a normal drop punt would suffice?
Maybe he kicks with the outside of his foot because he comfortable doing that. Maybe he snaps for goals because he is confident do that.

Personally, as long as he is hitting targets and kicking goals I wouldn’t care if he was doing it wearing flippers and fishnet stockings.
 

juss

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Losing yes but underperforming no, especially as he matured (like Dusty)

He has been to Finals 8 years straight, sure with heat it was easier, but some of those Cavs teams were bog average and he ripped through the eastern conference with that team. That’s an incredible effort in its own right given that it adds 2-3 months to your season.

He, unfortunately, came up against a historically great team with the 2nd and 3rd best players in the world, who also had Klay Thompson (a guy who can score 37 points in a quarter) and Draymond green ( a perennial DPOY candidate). And they awarded the finals MVP in 2015 to the player who kept him to 36 points, 14 rebounds and 9 assists per game.

3 x finals MVP when they won them too. I’m a Warriors fan but Lebron was other worldly. I was being kind to Dusty to even making the comparison, although basketball is easier to dominate an an individual.
Non comparible really.
In basketball 1 player is 20% of the field team and the court is small enough they can basically influence every offensive and defensive play for their team. If they were good enough (and some are) your team could just about run every play of the game through them.

AFL with 18 a side on a large field just never allows for that sort of individual impact from 1 player.
 

Mr_Moogle

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Non comparible really.
In basketball 1 player is 20% of the field team and the court is small enough they can basically influence every offensive and defensive play for their team. If they were good enough (and some are) your team could just about run every play of the game through them.

AFL with 18 a side on a large field just never allows for that sort of individual impact from 1 player.
Yep. This is why basketball players have so much clout. Look at Lebron for example.
 

Back One Out

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Interesting to compare richmond best and fairest to the aflca votes

B&F
1 Prestia
2 Edwards
3 Grimes
4 Vlastuin
5 Lynch
6 Dusty
7 Houli
8 Lambert
9 Astbury
10 Castagna and Rioli

AFLCA votes
1 Dusty
2 Prestia
3 Edwards
4 Lynch
5 Houli
6 Lambert
7 Grimes
8 Vlastuin
9 Cotchin
10 Ellis
Different voting systems

One rates players by every game they play. The other just rewards them for their best games.

B&F - all 22 Richmond players are given a score between 0 and 5
AFLCA - Hardwick & the oppo coach give votes to the five best players (out of 44)

Nobody denies Martin's best is very good, but he was pretty ordinary in many games back in March/April/May
That's probably why he missed selection in the All Australian team and why he wasn't Top 5 in the Richmond B&F
 

Back One Out

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Champion Data median scores of the six best midfielders of 2019 (plus Dusty)

125 Fyfe
121 Dangerfield
116 Neale
116 Cripps
109 Bontempelli
107 Kelly
104 Martin


Fyfe
154, 147, 147, 145, 145, 144, 132, 129, 128, 126, 124, 124, 110, 108, 104, 101, 101, 91, 76, 63

Dangerfield
163, 156, 154, 149, 147, 146, 146, 141, 137, 130, 128, 127, 115, 106, 101, 99, 99, 97, 94, 85, 83, 66, 57, 26

Neale
190, 177, 151, 148, 142, 140, 140, 139, 137, 127, 120, 118, 114, 114, 108, 106, 103, 101, 98, 91, 85, 79, 79, 47

Cripps
194, 169, 157, 152, 148, 134, 126, 123, 120, 116, 116, 115, 110, 93, 89, 85, 78, 78, 73, 66

Bontempelli
166, 158, 146, 146, 140, 132, 130, 127, 124, 118, 112, 109, 104, 99, 99, 97, 96, 95, 93, 90, 83, 73, 70

Kelly
162, 140, 138, 129, 128, 121, 120, 115, 114, 111, 110, 108, 107, 106, 97, 96, 94, 92, 87, 86, 82, 76, 74, 74, 39

Martin 2019
138, 137, 132, 128, 115, 113, 111, 109, 108, 108, 104, 104, 100, 98, 98, 97, 92, 89, 89, 78, 66, 62, 60

Martin 2017
166, 159, 158, 155, 150, 150, 146, 144, 142, 130, 125, 121, 121, 119, 118, 114, 113, 111, 106, 105, 93, 92, 87, 74, 54


It seems like a few Tigers fans in this thread are bundling together Dusty's 2017 season with his 2019 finals series.
The reality is he never really came close to replicating his unbelievable 2017 form this season.
As good as he is, others were better this year, Danger included.
 

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