No Oppo Supporters General AFL Discussion #12 - Carlton Posters ONLY!

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CJMB

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Aug 30, 2017
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Random idea for tweaking it further.

Matching a bid uses the clubs next available pick in the same draft, with any points deficit then coming off the clubs future picks (beginning with their pick in the round the selection takes place).

For example:

Jamarra Ugle-Hagan
Current rules: bid on at Pick 1, discounted to 2400pts, WB match using 29, 33, 41, 42, 52 and 54 (2489pts).
Alternate rule: bid on at Pick 1, discounted to 2400pts, WB match using 29 (653pts) and carry a deficit of 1747pts into the first round of 2021.

Reef McInnes
Current rules: bid on at Pick 23, discounted to 618pts, Collingwood match using 41 and 42 (807pts).
Alternate rule: bid on at Pick 23, discounted to 618pts, Collingwood match using 41 (412pts) and carry a deficit of 206pts into the first round of 2021.

Basically, the closer in value to the bid your next pick is, the less the cost for the following season. Rewards clubs for smart positioning or live trading to match bids, disincentivises stockpiling of late picks to match early bids.
not sure the JUH example is the best to use.

There’s a rule that when matching bids you can only use picks you have for each available list spot; ie if you have 3 available list spots you’ve got to match with 3 picks.

Due to the list cuts last year this rule was temporarily disregarded for the draft just gone.

The dogs REALLY lucked out with their timing, having the top rated prospect tied to them when he was going to be bid on at 1 but not having to trade up for high value picks to match the bid.

This year there are no ‘rights’ to NGA players before pick 21. Next year that goes out to about 40. I think that’s alright, maybe it could go out further to 50 but at least it’s not JUH/Quaynor/Thomas level stuff like it has been recently which is a joke.

I’m strongly of the belief that regular academy and FS bids should have no discount applied to them and stricter conditions about the picks used to match. Maybe the first pick you use has to be within 10 places of the bid.

I’d also consider a 5-10% ‘points tax’ when matching, so you’re encouraging the clubs to try and actually pick the player themselves at their expected rank rather than just waiting for a bid and matching.
 

Blue Pulse

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Tough read.
Agree, really tough read and it just goes to show how a little guidance from the right people can set the wheels in motion for the path taken. Not saying our club is faultless, but listening to Eddie praise Shane O'Sullivan and how his kids call him Pop, it sounds like he was well guided from a young age. Rod had his own demons, but was thrown in the deep end from 16, now even without those demons, it was going to be tough without guidance at that age. Luckily for Rod, it sounds like he has some good family and partners around him for him to hopefully come out the other side.
 

teagueyubeauty

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Not sure about the others, but I would have thought (ie, just my opinion) that the wack by Kyle Hartigan might have deserved a little more than the fine....
The head is sacrosanct, except the back of it....

Does anyone honestly think that if he hit a player with the same action in the face the penalty would have been the same?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 

CJMB

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The head is sacrosanct, except the back of it....

Does anyone honestly think that if he hit a player with the same action in the face the penalty would have been the same?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
I guess the big difference, as late and as much of a s*** bloke move that it was... it was still a 'football act' to play (spoil) the ball, rather than a bump which is a collision with zero intent of playing the ball.

As for front on contact during a 'spoil'... I'm not sure, but I'd think with a similar on-field result, ie no concussion or broken nose, then I'd guess there might be some more robust discussion in the media but the match review outcome might fall into a similar boat, perhaps a touch heavier fine.
 

Gethelred

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I guess the big difference, as late and as much of a s*** bloke move that it was... it was still a 'football act' to play (spoil) the ball, rather than a bump which is a collision with zero intent of playing the ball.
I'm sorry, but I don't buy that even a little bit.

He didn't aim for the ball, even a little. He was waaay too late to affect the contest. The purpose behind what he did was to make Hawkins think, the next time he went for a clear lead, that he might get one to the back of the head for his trouble.

If that's considered a football act, then the barrier for what a football act is needs to be elevated quite a bit.
 

CJMB

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I'm sorry, but I don't buy that even a little bit.

He didn't aim for the ball, even a little. He was waaay too late to affect the contest. The purpose behind what he did was to make Hawkins think, the next time he went for a clear lead, that he might get one to the back of the head for his trouble.

If that's considered a football act, then the barrier for what a football act is needs to be elevated quite a bit.
I don’t disagree with what you’re saying at all, I was just thinking it through from how I expect the match committee would view it.
 

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Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods

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Agree, but the 20% discount is a rort. First dibs absolutely they should get

I’d be happy for F&S to be exactly the same

Queensland and NSW the only places allowed to have “Academies”, NGA is just a ridiculous replacement for old school zones that we’ve somehow managed to get a “zone” as fruitful as Melbourne and St.Kildas in the past




Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
Is the F/S rule really all that it's made out to be? How often does a team have access to F/S players? How often do they actually get drafted? And, how often do they turn out to be decent players?
Versus academy players?

To me, the AFL should run and fund academies in all states. The academies can be tied to a club, but all clubs should have access to those players. If a club bids on a player that isn't tied to their academy, the club whose academy it is has a right to match that bid, but they have to MATCH it! No discount. No using multiple picks to match a certain number of points. Same rules apply to F/S selections.
If a team rates an academy or F/S selection highly enough to put a bid in for them, good luck to them. To they have a fair chance of securing that player. If the team that the F/S or academy player 'belongs' to, deems that player worthy of matching a bid for, they have to either deal directly with the team who placed the bid and make a deal with them by satisfying a trade for picks and/or players to secure that pick, or they can deal with the team who has the next pick and work out a suitable trade to secure that pick. Simples.

So any team can secure any player they want from the draft, if they are willing to pay the appropriate price. Any team can match a bid for one of their players if they are willing to match the appropriate price by dealing either with the team making the bid or the team with the pick directly after the bid.

This does obviously open up a separate can of worms where teams would have to be allowed to trade players without their permission to help satisfy some of those deals.

As soon as you start allowing teams to have preference over certain players, or apply discounts to bid matches, or players slip 10+ spots down the order because teams won't bid knowing that the other team plans to match (no benefit in bidding other than 'keeping the other team honest'), then you are just dealing with compromised drafts year after year.
 

Elmer_Judd

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Is the F/S rule really all that it's made out to be? How often does a team have access to F/S players? How often do they actually get drafted? And, how often do they turn out to be decent players?
Versus academy players?

To me, the AFL should run and fund academies in all states. The academies can be tied to a club, but all clubs should have access to those players. If a club bids on a player that isn't tied to their academy, the club whose academy it is has a right to match that bid, but they have to MATCH it! No discount. No using multiple picks to match a certain number of points. Same rules apply to F/S selections.
If a team rates an academy or F/S selection highly enough to put a bid in for them, good luck to them. To they have a fair chance of securing that player. If the team that the F/S or academy player 'belongs' to, deems that player worthy of matching a bid for, they have to either deal directly with the team who placed the bid and make a deal with them by satisfying a trade for picks and/or players to secure that pick, or they can deal with the team who has the next pick and work out a suitable trade to secure that pick. Simples.

So any team can secure any player they want from the draft, if they are willing to pay the appropriate price. Any team can match a bid for one of their players if they are willing to match the appropriate price by dealing either with the team making the bid or the team with the pick directly after the bid.

This does obviously open up a separate can of worms where teams would have to be allowed to trade players without their permission to help satisfy some of those deals.

As soon as you start allowing teams to have preference over certain players, or apply discounts to bid matches, or players slip 10+ spots down the order because teams won't bid knowing that the other team plans to match (no benefit in bidding other than 'keeping the other team honest'), then you are just dealing with compromised drafts year after year.
Would anyone care so much for the Swans academy so much if they weren't so darn good at non Academy selections IE Florent, Warner, McDonald, Papley and several more guns they have were non Academy selections.

I am no fan of the Swans chairman, but I cannot deny there is a lot of truth coming from the so called whining Vic Clubs (Which happily doesn't seem to include us)about having the opportunity to pick up many of the gun Swan players and missing out.

I would suggest that instead of being jealous and annoyed of the Swans and their young kids, we try and actually emulate how they draft and (CRUCIALLY) develop their own young players..


Errol Gulden is of Turkish extraction who was likely going to play Soccer if the Swans didn't show interest in him as a junior.

That is one instance of the Academy being a good thing IMO.
 
Last edited:

Gethelred

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Is the F/S rule really all that it's made out to be? How often does a team have access to F/S players? How often do they actually get drafted? And, how often do they turn out to be decent players?
Versus academy players?

To me, the AFL should run and fund academies in all states. The academies can be tied to a club, but all clubs should have access to those players. If a club bids on a player that isn't tied to their academy, the club whose academy it is has a right to match that bid, but they have to MATCH it! No discount. No using multiple picks to match a certain number of points. Same rules apply to F/S selections.
If a team rates an academy or F/S selection highly enough to put a bid in for them, good luck to them. To they have a fair chance of securing that player. If the team that the F/S or academy player 'belongs' to, deems that player worthy of matching a bid for, they have to either deal directly with the team who placed the bid and make a deal with them by satisfying a trade for picks and/or players to secure that pick, or they can deal with the team who has the next pick and work out a suitable trade to secure that pick. Simples.

So any team can secure any player they want from the draft, if they are willing to pay the appropriate price. Any team can match a bid for one of their players if they are willing to match the appropriate price by dealing either with the team making the bid or the team with the pick directly after the bid.

This does obviously open up a separate can of worms where teams would have to be allowed to trade players without their permission to help satisfy some of those deals.

As soon as you start allowing teams to have preference over certain players, or apply discounts to bid matches, or players slip 10+ spots down the order because teams won't bid knowing that the other team plans to match (no benefit in bidding other than 'keeping the other team honest'), then you are just dealing with compromised drafts year after year.
But then you run into the problem that there is no incentive to have an academy if there is no way to safeguard the players onto your list.

The Swans academy serves as a means to an end for the AFL and for Sydney; they bring kids and groups that aren't traditional footy people - whether through rugby or migration - and they promote the sport to them, and Sydney wind up getting 4-6 players every 5 years. Before you consider weakening their bidding process, consider how you would approach these non-traditional footy supporters in a way that has the same potential the academies provide.

Unless you can fix that problem another way just as well, you're not going to get the AFL to sign off on any change to the status quo, and nor should you.
 

Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods

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Would anyone care so much for the Swans academy so much if they weren't so darn good at non Academy selections IE Florent, Warner, McDonald, Papley and several more guns they have were non Academy selections.

I am no fan of the Swans chairman, but I cannot deny there is a lot of truth coming from the so called whining Vic Clubs (Which happily doesn't seem to include us)about having the opportunity to pick up many of the gun Swan players and missing out.

I would suggest that instead of being jealous and annoyed of the Swans and their young kids, we try and actually emulate how they draft and (CRUCIALLY) develop their own young players..


Errol Gulden is of Turkish extraction who was likely going to play Soccer if the Swans didn't show interest in him as a junior.

That is one instance of the Academy being a good thing IMO.
Fair points, but I'm not saying the academies are a bad thing. Just the rules around them and the inequity.
Open one up for every club. Let the AFL fund them so they're all funded equally, and allow all clubs to access the talent pool in a way that still gives the club running the academy first access, or right of reply on a player, but doesn't create discounts for doing so.
 

Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods

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But then you run into the problem that there is no incentive to have an academy if there is no way to safeguard the players onto your list.

The Swans academy serves as a means to an end for the AFL and for Sydney; they bring kids and groups that aren't traditional footy people - whether through rugby or migration - and they promote the sport to them, and Sydney wind up getting 4-6 players every 5 years. Before you consider weakening their bidding process, consider how you would approach these non-traditional footy supporters in a way that has the same potential the academies provide.

Unless you can fix that problem another way just as well, you're not going to get the AFL to sign off on any change to the status quo, and nor should you.
I don't see how any of that changes. The academies continue, but there's more of them. The club gets a leg up by seeing their talent developing first hand. They have a more intimate knowledge of their kids and those kids have a more intimate knowledge of their academy club's systems, players and coaches and will feel more comfortable in that environment. They still get first right of reply on a bid through a match, but they just have to put more effort and resources into matching that bid.
They get local talent that, if they draft, is more likely to stay, and they get some players that may end up at interstate clubs that might have a 'go home factor' in their favour in a few year's time instead of losing players to the 'go home factor' all the time.

It changes virtually nothing except making them pay a fairer price for the rated talent, and possibly gives them a fairer crack at other clubs' F/S prospects if the same rules are applied there.
 

Original Moody Blue

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Fair points, but I'm not saying the academies are a bad thing. Just the rules around them and the inequity.
Open one up for every club. Let the AFL fund them so they're all funded equally, and allow all clubs to access the talent pool in a way that still gives the club running the academy first access, or right of reply on a player, but doesn't create discounts for doing so.
No need to. The Northern States cannot keep all of these kids. AFL clubs have to get better at identifying talent instead of being blindsided at the draft. Creating Academies in Victoria will be like the old zoning and will require a lot of money which the AFL does not have at the moment. I note individual players like Lloyd and others have created their own academies of sorts where they take kids on and try and prepare them for the draft. I presume they make a little coin on the side. This has been happening in soccer in Australia for decades where kids as young as 5 start training with a professional coach to prepare them for becoming a professional player in the future. Very expensive exercise. How many soccer players have been thru the various Govt sporting academies and failed, and yet have never paid one cent, which is wrong. Even athletes who succeed and have made millions never repay their debt, but the Govt chases HECS debts.
 

FitzroyBlueBagger

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