NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Sphynx]

Yet certain fans are just champing at the bit to vilify the victims, I can tell...

Using the fluff piece as part of your defence of your new saviour coach is in effect proclaiming your belief that their trauma is not real or it's all made up. Is this the path they want to take? It won't end well if the allegations turn out to be even slightly true...

It's about as much a fluff piece as Jackson's article is.

It's from a credentialed investigative journalist who specialized in highlighting indigenous and marginal ethnic groups inequality in society.

 

[Forward Press]

The counter augment to this is, what he did at the time was true and how he was feeling.

And on reflection almost a decade later his recollection of the actual events are now muddied and impacted by other events of his life.

It certainly provides enough reasonable doubt to his testimony.

So is Cyril Rioli (possibly the one indigenous player we can name who we are confident was not happy about parts of his career at Hawthorn) being 'muddled' in his recollection and 'impacted by other events'? Are his fluff statements post 2018 considered 'reasonable doubt' into his current position that he wants nothing to do with Hawthorn now?

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

The counter augment to this is, what he did at the time was true and how he was feeling.

And on reflection almost a decade later his recollection of the actual events are now muddied and impacted by other events of his life.

It certainly provides enough reasonable doubt to his testimony.

Enough reasonable doubt in what sense?

What absolute nonsense.


Without context, it provides absolutely nothing.

 

[Nickoo]

It's absolutely systemic. These were club policies used to get several indigenous players to fit into a box that Hawthorn were more comfortable with. White players and indigenous players like Burgoyne, who Hawthorn were already comfortable with were not exposed to it.

Alternatively, It’s not fitting anyone in a box but conducting a disciplinary meeting. I doubt anyone would have said to terminate, as bloody if, and I wonder as this allegation came from a partner that the player came home and told her that as he wanted the termination. It’s just another plausible hypothetical.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Forward Press]

It's about as much a fluff piece as Jackson's article is.

It's from a credentialed investigative journalist who specialized in highlighting indigenous and marginal ethnic groups inequality in society.

Oh, we're into disparaging the journalist now?

Feel good article =/= investigative journalism

Do you think this player's trauma therefore is made up? Because that is your implication from your posts.

 

[Engimal v3]

It's about as much a fluff piece as Jackson's article is.

It's from a credentialed investigative journalist who specialized in highlighting indigenous and marginal ethnic groups inequality in society.

What's "fluff" about Jackson's article? It contains some very clear allegations.

 

[Sphynx]

So is Cyril Rioli (possibly the one indigenous player we can name who we are confident was not happy about parts of his career at Hawthorn) being 'muddled' in his recollection and 'impacted by other events'? Are his fluff statements post 2018 considered 'reasonable doubt' into his current position that he wants nothing to do with Hawthorn now?

Is Cyril Rioli on record as having specific issues with Alistair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and Jason Burt?

Or are you just assuming he does?

From all reports Clarkson is one of the few people Rioli will still converse with from Hawthorn.

 

[Sphynx]

Oh, we're into disparaging the journalist now?

Feel good article =/= investigative journalism

Do you think this player's trauma therefore is made up? Because that is your implication from your posts.

Hey?

I didn't disparage Jackson, in fact I was highlighting that the 2011 and 2012 articles were written with similar social angles to those highlighted in Jackson's piece.

None of the 3 articles are puff pieces.

A lot of themes were based around the players personal struggles and attempts at redemption to self admitted behavioral issues with the support of some of those accused.

Unless you think journalists just casually drop the topic of full term still birth's into "puff pieces"?

 

[Sphynx]

What's "fluff" about Jackson's article? It contains some very clear allegations.

Nothing, that was my point.

Forward Press seems to be insinuating these earlier articles are some sort of fluff pieces generated by Hawthorn.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Yet certain fans are just champing at the bit to vilify the victims, I can tell...

Using the fluff piece as part of your defence of your new saviour coach is in effect proclaiming your belief that their trauma is not real or it's all made up. Is this the path they want to take? It won't end well if the allegations turn out to be even slightly true...

i mean yeah, that's also true.

this will take time to sort out.

Apart from the victims I feel for north. They wont have a coach for the trade period & pre season. They could even be starting 23 season without a senior coach.

I cant see this being sorted in a few months.

disaster for them

both North and Brisbane need to start looking at interim coaches.

 

[Saint]

Hey?

I didn't disparage Jackson, in fact I was highlighting that the 2011 and 2012 articles were written with similar social angles to those highlighted in Jackson's piece.

None of the 3 articles are puff pieces.

A lot of themes were based around the players personal struggles and attempts at redemption to self admitted behavioral issues with the support of some of those accused.

Unless you think journalists just casually drop the topic of full term still birth's into "puff pieces"?

Perhaps they've now realised that the trauma they were going through was actually inflicted by those same people and perhaps they were only providing support out of guilt and culpability for what they'd done.

That could be a strong realisation which somebody with mental health issues might only realise years later.

 

[Forward Press]

Nothing, that was my point.

Forward Press seems to be insinuating these earlier articles are some sort of fluff pieces generated by Hawthorn.

Not saying it was generated by Hawthorn, just saying they are feel good fluff pieces that are not exactly hard-hitting journalism asking the tough questions and getting honest responses. There are several of them every week during AFL season.

 

[The_Ru]

This wasn't a fluff piece orchestrated by the club.

It was written by a more credential journalist than Jackson and was written after the player was out of the AFL system and rebuilding his life. The second article was by a different journalist a year later and in the wake of a still birth at 42 weeks when he re-entered the VFL in an attempt to get redrafted.

The first journalist who the Melbourne Press Club decided it was appropriate to name a fellowship in his honor following his death in 2018, a former politcal editor of the Age, Walkley winner, and whom one of the mourners at his funeral was a sitting Australian Prime Minister....

Here is his synopsis within the Australia Media Hall of Fame, unless you think this person wasn't one that knew who he was talking to and had an agenda regarding indigenous?

"He was decorated with Australia’s top prizes for journalism. In the second half of his career, he focused on the disadvantage of Indigenous people and how Australia administered its offshore processing and detention of asylum-seekers. His exclusive account of the impact of detention on the babies of asylum seekers caused a national outcry and led to a softening of policies for families affected."

Assuming these are the same person, the key point here is that the player was trying to re-enter the AFL system at the time these were published. Even if he had processed the trauma, he was definitely not going to air any dirty laundry at that point in his career.

It doesn’t seem to me that this automatically negates the more recent accounts about the alleged experiences. Simply that he can tell the truth now because it can no longer be used against his AFL aspirations.

 

[Sphynx]

Not saying it was generated by Hawthorn, just saying they are feel good fluff pieces that are not exactly hard-hitting journalism asking the tough questions and getting honest responses. There are several of them every week during AFL season.

OK, now who is disparaging the journalist?

For starters, the journalist from 2011 wasn't just a sports journalist (although he dabbled), he was an award winning investigative journalist who had devoted the last half of his career to investigating indigenous issues.


Does this read like a Mark Robinson type to you?



He also wrote the book (amongst others) "Reconciliation" who's synopsis reads:

Michael Gordon spent two months travelling through Northern Australia to examine for himself the present state of remote Aboriginal communities and the prospects for reconciliation. - This account of his journey describes the positive and negative developments Gordon found in the towns he visited, the affects of racism and poverty and the courageous attempts to wrestle with that legacy. - Based on extensive interviews, the book also describes Gordon's own 'journey' and the impact of his travels on his own perceptions of reconciliation and co-existence. - Vividly written and heartfelt, this is a major contribution to the on-going debate about reconciliation in this country.

 

[Forward Press]

OK, now who is disparaging the journalist?

For starters, the journalist from 2011 wasn't a sports journalist, he was an award winning investigative journalist who had devoted the last half of his career to investigating indigenous issues.


Does this read like a Mark Robinson type to you?

View attachment 1520041

Journalists write non-investigative feel good pieces all the time.

Here's one from Russell Jackson himself.

Nick Kyrgios is changing tennis whether traditionalists like it or not

It has been hard to pinpoint the exact impact Nick Kyrgios has had on tennis in Australia, but that could be because it's an unexpected demographic that he most appeals to, writes Russell Jackson.

www.abc.net.au

I am just saying that your cited article is not the 'hard hitting asking the tough questions' type article you seem to think it is. I know Michael Gordon has written some great articles, fine - but you are now using it to victim-blame when Jackson's article actually dug far deeper and was more later than Gordon's.

 

[Forward Press]

Assuming these are the same person, the key point here is that the player was trying to re-enter the AFL system at the time these were published. Even if he had processed the trauma, he was definitely not going to air any dirty laundry at that point in his career.

It doesn’t seem to me that this automatically negates the more recent accounts about the alleged experiences. Simply that he can tell the truth now because it can no longer be used against his AFL aspirations.

Oh, now this is some good context.

If true then the player was never going to disparage his former employer - no player does that when they are seeking to go on another club's list.

 

[Sphynx]

Journalists write non-investigative feel good pieces all the time.

Here's one from Russell Jackson himself.

Nick Kyrgios is changing tennis whether traditionalists like it or not

It has been hard to pinpoint the exact impact Nick Kyrgios has had on tennis in Australia, but that could be because it's an unexpected demographic that he most appeals to, writes Russell Jackson.

www.abc.net.au

I am just saying that your cited article is not the 'hard hitting asking the tough questions' type article you seem to think it is. I know Michael Gordon has written some great articles, fine - but you are now using it to victim-blame when Jackson's article actually dug far deeper and was more later than Gordon's.

I'm not victim blaming at all, I'm just not in the habit of believing one side of every story and accusations, fed mainly by the media.

If proven true, both coaches should be banned for life.

But these allegations have to be proven. Even Phil Egan states that the allegations need to be validated. So even he provides a certain level of conservatism to the testimony in his report.


You are also dismissing the earlier article on the basis of the assumption of Ian's trauma and resentment manifesting years down the line. That's not how I read his testimony to Jackson. You may be right. But the counter argument may also be possible that his trauma and mental health issues are not only a result of his time at Hawthorn and the issues at play may be far more complicated than simply "3 men caused the complete collapse of my life through systemic racism and an oppressive and manipulative sporting program"

 

[nineteen eighty]

What a really, really odd post.

Not at all. And you're bright enough to know where I'm getting at with my posts.

"The Herald Sun on Tuesday revealed that an unnamed Hawks coach accused Burt, former coach Alastair Clarkson and former football bosses Chris Fagan and Mark Evans of operating the football department “like The Russian Mafia”."

So this person comes forward out of the blue and uses a term "like the Russian Mafia"? You obviously have your opinion that you are pushing hard on here and I think something simply does not smell right. I'm not saying Clarkson et al didn't use "harsh" tactics to align players interests to winning games. But fluck me...I must live in a different universe if there's anything wrong with that.

Disclaimer: if what is being reported is in fact factual, then absolutely there is an issue and I can't see those individuals being able to continue in the roles they have been employed in.

 

[Stumpy Pete]

IN light of what has happened here it is interesting to note argument being forward by attorney general about why public hearings of the yet-to-be-established federal anti corruption body would be expected to be exceptional.

 

[nineteen eighty]

Are you saying the journalist just made it up?

No. I'm asserting someone was "coached" into using that term.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Not at all. And you're bright enough to know where I'm getting at with my posts.

"The Herald Sun on Tuesday revealed that an unnamed Hawks coach accused Burt, former coach Alastair Clarkson and former football bosses Chris Fagan and Mark Evans of operating the football department “like The Russian Mafia”."

So this person comes forward out of the blue and uses a term "like the Russian Mafia"? You obviously have your opinion that you are pushing hard on here and I think something simply does not smell right. I'm not saying Clarkson et al didn't use "harsh" tactics to align players interests to winning games. But fluck me...I must live in a different universe if there's anything wrong with that.

Disclaimer: if what is being reported is in fact factual, then absolutely there is an issue and I can't see those individuals being able to continue in the roles they have been employed in.

The problem is, I do know where you're getting at.

That's what makes it so odd.


And when I say 'odd', I'm being as polite as possible.

 

[nineteen eighty]

The problem is, I do know where you're getting at.

That's what makes it so odd.


And when I say 'odd', I'm being as polite as possible.

Hey, I've been called worse than "odd" in my time.

Something doesn't smell right for mine. Time will tell.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I might be jumping the gun here, but I am struggling to see how Clarkson survives this, however we know he won’t just back away from this quietly, so be prepared for some story’s to come out, I suspect via his leaky manager.

 

[SunshineBoy]

I might be jumping the gun here, but I am struggling to see how Clarkson survives this, however we know he won’t just back away from this quietly, so be prepared for some story’s to come out, I suspect via his leaky manager.

So who in the AFL,leaked the complete review to the friendly herald sun,

 

[nineteen eighty]

I'm not victim blaming at all, I'm just not in the habit of believing one side of every story and accusations, fed mainly by the media.

If proven true, both coaches should be banned for life.

But these allegations have to be proven. Even Phil Egan states that the allegations need to be validated. So even he provides a certain level of conservatism to his report.


You are also dismissing the earlier article on the basis of the assumption of Ian's trauma and resentment manifesting years down the line. That's not how I read his testimony to Jackson. You may be right. But the counter argument may also be possible that his trauma and mental health issues are not only a result of his time at Hawthorn and the issues at play may be far more complicated than simply "3 men caused the complete collapse of my life through systemic racism and an oppressive and manipulative sporting program"

Spot on!!!!