NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Sphynx]

You and Handsome are connecting two stories assuming it is the same individual with some back of the envelope calculations. If there was a systematic abuse of indigenous players/families going on, then it is conceivable similar events occurred during that period (of which, those involved may have different reflections on/or have changed their understanding of traumatic events once having time and space to process it).

It's not an assumption. It's just my opinion, which I think most people would align with.

I will happily post the articles right now if Chief is happy for me to, people can make up their own minds. They are on the public record, but I'm trying to pay the discussion the respect it deserves.


I think given the reaction since the story broke of almost unanimous misbelief from most of Hawthorn's playing list (including former First Nations players), we can rule out the word "systemic" I think.

Clarkson has coached over 200+ players and there is 1 especially serious allegation levelled against him. I think the other allegations are open for interpretation. It's relevant that there is first hand testimony that seems to contradict some of the allegations from the most serious accuser and potentially provides some context for Hawthorn trying to control aspects of this players life, including where they live and who they might associate with.

 

[gouki88]

Hence why the accusers should come out and put their name to the allegations. Maybe they won’t because these old articles exist where they stated they had a great experience.
Maybe it’s not them in these articles. We don’t know until they are revealed so the aspersions on people that potentially have nothing to do with it can stop.
I mean the accused were named quite quickly without care of their or their families mental health.

This is just a crock of utter shite, no matter how many times you keep saying it

 

[jj15]

This is just a crock of utter shite, no matter how many times you keep saying it

How so? Mature response btw.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

The circumstances detailed in attachment 2 and the “Ian” story are exactly the same as this player has detailed in articles after he left the Hawthorn football club.

Raising his partners stepson, a lost pregnancy shortly after arriving at the football club and another pregnancy after that while still at the club followed by a stillborn birth after leaving Hawthorn. The time spent at the football club is also the same.

Interestingly in the old articles which are a direct account of his experience, not his partner’s, this player could not be more happy about the support network that Hawthorn provided while at the club and after he was delisted. Literally calls out how supportive Burt and Clarkson were, the faith they showed in him and that he was still in contact with them as friends.

Rioli in 2018:

"I love the Hawthorn Football Club and I cannot thank them enough for the opportunities they've given me and the way they've embraced me and my family over the past 11 years," he said.


If you're seriously giving weight to fluff pieces orchestrated by clubs, as opposed to formal, independent anonymous investigations - then you're a fool.

 

[Bluelegs]

I think given the reaction since the story broke of almost unanimous misbelief from most of Hawthorn's playing list (including former First Nations players), we can rule out the word "systemic" I think.

It's absolutely systemic. These were club policies used to get several indigenous players to fit into a box that Hawthorn were more comfortable with. White players and indigenous players like Burgoyne, who Hawthorn were already comfortable with were not exposed to it.

 

[gouki88]

How so? Mature response btw.

Maybe have a look at the article. Not sure how many ****ing times it has to be said.

One of the respondents has made several attempts at suicide, and only came forward under assurance of anonymity. The "accusers" don't have to do what a rando on BigFooty demands.

Edit: I also do not care one iota about being "mature" towards you. All you have done is throw up as many fallacious arguments as possible, attempt to undermine the legitimacy of victims, and generally take the side of the powerful.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

If you read the articles it's absolutely obvious it's Ian/Example 2.

He talks about struggles with miscarriage, moving to an outer suburb and helping raise his partners first child and then the mentions of his biological children align with with the birth times in the article and report.

He's also a Aboriginal/Torres Straight Islander, was at Hawthorn during when it was rumored and delisted and spent the amount of time on the list that aligns with the two stories.

It's also obvious from these two article's who the redacted coach in the report is (he no longer works in the AFL) and helped said player for years afterwards, including providing him a future assistant coaching opportunity for him under redacted coach at Vic Metro.

The obvious difference is, he undertakes these interviews 12/24 months from the events of the report when he's out of the AFL system and playing local football and heaps praise on the support Clarkson, Burt and redacted coach provided him in a very tough time in his life. He also owns alot of his own issues as down to his unprofessionalism. He specifically states he'd just go missing for days at a time when things got hard, which has direct relevance and provides contest on the accusations being levelled against Hawthorn when considering he is meant to be an elite athlete.

Another interesting point is, for someone who was supposedly forcibly separated from his community and people, Ian stayed in Melbourne for a number of years after he was delisted and Hawthorn and their network were the ones that provided him with work after football, a profession, the opportunity at his local football club etc.

I personally wouldn't be linking stories unless i knew for sure but i can definitely see the view that if it is indeed the same person, and the story is changing that this does not look good for jackson and the players involved.

You would have hoped jackson fact checked this before reporting on it, but who knows.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

It's absolutely systemic. These were club policies used to get several indigenous players to fit into a box that Hawthorn were more comfortable with. White players and indigenous players like Burgoyne, who Hawthorn were already comfortable with were not exposed to it.

It could be telling that Burgoyne's partner is white.

The fact that Burgoyne wasn't subject to the same stuff alleged by the others, could be more damning to Hawthorn.

 

[Sphynx]

Rioli in 2018:

"I love the Hawthorn Football Club and I cannot thank them enough for the opportunities they've given me and the way they've embraced me and my family over the past 11 years," he said.


If you're seriously giving weight to fluff pieces orchestrated by clubs, as opposed to formal, independent anonymous investigations - then you're a fool.

This wasn't a fluff piece orchestrated by the club.

It was written by a more credential journalist than Jackson and was written after the player was out of the AFL system and rebuilding his life. The second article was by a different journalist a year later and in the wake of a still birth at 42 weeks when he re-entered the VFL in an attempt to get redrafted.

The first journalist who the Melbourne Press Club decided it was appropriate to name a fellowship in his honor following his death in 2018, a former politcal editor of the Age, Walkley winner, and whom one of the mourners at his funeral was a sitting Australian Prime Minister....

Here is his synopsis within the Australia Media Hall of Fame, unless you think this person wasn't one that knew who he was talking to and had an agenda regarding indigenous?

"He was decorated with Australia’s top prizes for journalism. In the second half of his career, he focused on the disadvantage of Indigenous people and how Australia administered its offshore processing and detention of asylum-seekers. His exclusive account of the impact of detention on the babies of asylum seekers caused a national outcry and led to a softening of policies for families affected."

 

[Bluelegs]

It could be telling that Burgoyne's partner is white.

The fact that Burgoyne wasn't subject to the same stuff alleged by the others, could be more damning to Hawthorn.

I don't know if it's that, specifically. Burgoyne came to Hawthorn as a 28 year old with a settled family life and an already remarkable career. Bit harder to bully someone into leaving everything behind to be a part of your club.

 

[nineteen eighty]

Ah yes, 'Handsome' has definitely displayed to us how his investigative journalism credentials far outshine those of Walkely Award winner Russell Jackson. Definite stitch up on that basis.

Who uses the term "run like the Russian mafia"? That's not a term that is readily used. I have never heard it used in all my corporate life (30 years) in addition to social circles. And we are to expect an assistant coach has used that very descriptive and derogatory term to describe the workings of Clarkson and others leading the club? Nah not for mine.

IMO!!!

 

[Nickoo]

There may be a motive for the coach.

He was released from Hawthorn in 2012 and has never held a coaching position in the AFL since. He worked mainly part time at NAB League level afterwards and now coaches local football.

And how much has he ‘partially’ corroborated anyway? That they had meetings or that one of the allegations is true?


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[Lavender Bushranger]

I don't know if it's that, specifically. Burgoyne came to Hawthorn as a 28 year old with a settled family life and an already remarkable career. Bit harder to bully someone into leaving everything behind to be a part of your club.

I don't either.

But an indigenous player with a white partner not being subject to that same alleged behaviour - shouldn't really be a surprise given the nature of the allegations.

The whole premise seems to be that Hawthorn officials didn't want their indigenous players being involved with other indigenous people - because they saw them as handbrakes.

That's what I take from the reports, and that's what the racist angle seems to be about.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Who uses the term "run like the Russian mafia"? That's not a term that is readily used. I have never heard it used in all my corporate life (30 years) in addition to social circles. And we are to expect an assistant coach has used that very descriptive and derogatory term to describe the workings of Clarkson and others leading the club? Nah not for mine.

IMO!!!

What a really, really odd post.

 

[Rusty Brookes]

The assistant coach's revelation in the HS just adds to the Occam's Razor aspect of the situation. The players very much experienced an awful time at Hawthorn and the coaches still see themselves as having done no wrong (which is worrying in of itself). That quote from the player's partner noting the reaction to their house is a real worry - thing is I remember older members of my family expressing similar thoughts and getting real confused when called out that what they were saying is racist -"What are you talking about? I'm complementing them on their house" - not understanding that they were starting from the assumption that Indigenous people always live in poor conditions.

FWIW, I don't think the players need to be part of the AFL investigation. They've had their say via the report and I don't believe they need to be cross-examined - I'm guessing, the only reason they felt compelled to talk about their experiences was because it was totally independent of the both the club and the AFL. A really important thing to note for any investigation conducted. I can understand why they don't want to be part of the AFL investigation now particularly with the AFLCA saying they need a representative on the panel. The coaches are 100% due their say, the AFLCA can advocate on their behalf but I'm not comfortable with the idea that the AFLCA get to have some influence on the panel makeup. Putting on my tinfoil hat, other coaches may have suddenly had a bit of insight into their own behaviours (whether that's with Indigenous players or not) and got in touch with the AFLCA to have some influence on how the investigation proceeds - something along the lines of its industry standard for coaches to have a say in personal issues, etc

Once this is all over (and it's a got a long way to go), I hope there's greater governance across the industry and a stricter code of conduct on how coaches are expected to behave (I'm guessing one already exists but no idea what's in there). I get the idea that clubs do want to help players to be better people - let's face it, there are some terrible examples of ex-footballers being awful people (think of the two of the greatest of all time and some of the terrible things they've done post footy) and I'm sure the AFL don't exactly turn cartwheels everytime a player makes the news for the wrong reason - but it needs to be done the right way. Paternalism is not the way to go and this situation is the outcome of that approach.

 

[Nickoo]

Hence why the accusers should come out and put their name to the allegations. Maybe they won’t because these old articles exist where they stated they had a great experience.
Maybe it’s not them in these articles. We don’t know until they are revealed so the aspersions on people that potentially have nothing to do with it can stop.
I mean the accused were named quite quickly without care of their or their families mental health.

Is it true that this report was sent to the AFL and it’s from there that it was leaked to the ABC? Who then gave both Clarkson and Fagan via the basic clubs email info@ during a hectic day just 24 hours to respond?


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[gouki88]

Who uses the term "run like the Russian mafia"? That's not a term that is readily used. I have never heard it used in all my corporate life (30 years) in addition to social circles. And we are to expect an assistant coach has used that very descriptive and derogatory term to describe the workings of Clarkson and others leading the club? Nah not for mine.

IMO!!!

Are you saying the journalist just made it up?

 

[Forward Press]

I personally wouldn't be linking stories unless i knew for sure but i can definitely see the view that if it is indeed the same person, and the story is changing that this does not look good for jackson and the players involved.

You would have hoped jackson fact checked this before reporting on it, but who knows.

It is not uncommon for victims of trauma to publicly display signs of being okay while privately trying to cope - and this external investigation which promised anonymity was their outlet.

In any event, it's all speculation at this point and I am not sure if BigFooty would allow us to start naming the victims.

 

[Forward Press]

Is it true that this report was sent to the AFL and it’s from there that it was leaked to the ABC? Who then gave both Clarkson and Fagan via the basic clubs email info@ during a hectic day just 24 hours to respond?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Hawthorn received it a couple of weeks before the ABC article, referred it to the AFL integrity department. The ABC journalist did his own investigation which the AFL CEO confirmed mirrors the contents of the report. Without the work from the ABC journalist, the report would have remained secret for now.

The 'hectic day' was a Tuesday after the prelim where neither North or Brisbane were preparing for a Grand Final, and where the journalist used their work emails and left messages on their phones.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

This wasn't a fluff piece orchestrated by the club.

It was written by a more credential journalist than Jackson and was written after the player was out of the AFL system and rebuilding his life. The second article was by a different journalist a year later and in the wake of a still birth at 42 weeks when he re-entered the VFL in an attempt to get redrafted.

The first journalist who the Melbourne Press Club decided it was appropriate to name a fellowship in his honor following his death in 2018, a former politcal editor of the Age, Walkley winner, and whom one of the mourners at his funeral was a sitting Australian Prime Minister....

Here is his synopsis within the Australia Media Hall of Fame, unless you think this person wasn't one that knew who he was talking to?

"He was decorated with Australia’s top prizes for journalism. In the second half of his career, he focused on the disadvantage of Indigenous people and how Australia administered its offshore processing and detention of asylum-seekers. His exclusive account of the impact of detention on the babies of asylum seekers caused a national outcry and led to a softening of policies for families affected."

It's not about the journalist.

It's about a person saying something publicly, at a point in time - which isn't true.

Or may feel true at the time, but upon reflection it isn't.

Rioli, as we now know, does not feel that his family was supported. But he said they were in 2018.


There are victims of abuse that don't realise they've been abused until years later.

My point being, something someone said in an article about something years ago, does not mean s**t.

 

[Bluelegs]

Who uses the term "run like the Russian mafia"? That's not a term that is readily used. I have never heard it used in all my corporate life (30 years) in addition to social circles. And we are to expect an assistant coach has used that very descriptive and derogatory term to describe the workings of Clarkson and others leading the club? Nah not for mine.

IMO!!!

You're getting too hung up on a turn of phrase that is just being employed to say that the Hawthorn football department used bullying and intimidation tactics on those with dissenting views.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

It is not uncommon for victims of trauma to publicly display signs of being okay while privately trying to cope - and this external investigation which promised anonymity was their outlet.

In any event, it's all speculation at this point and I am not sure if BigFooty would allow us to start naming the victims.

Yep true also

 

[Forward Press]

Yep true also

Yet certain fans are just champing at the bit to vilify the victims, I can tell...

Using the fluff piece as part of your defence of your new saviour coach is in effect proclaiming your belief that their trauma is not real or it's all made up. Is this the path they want to take? It won't end well if the allegations turn out to be even slightly true...

 

[Sphynx]

It's not about the journalist.

It's about a person saying something publicly, at a point in time - which isn't true.

Or may feel true at the time, but upon reflection it isn't.

Rioli, as we now know, does not feel that his family was supported. But he said they were in 2018.


There are victims of abuse that don't realise they've been abused until years later.

My point being, something someone said in an article about something years ago, does not mean s**t.

The counter augment to this is, what he did at the time was true and how he was feeling.

And on reflection almost a decade later his recollection of the actual events are now muddied and impacted by other events of his life.

It certainly provides enough reasonable doubt to his testimony.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Genuine question - are there similar allegations of “control” of non indigenous players?