Is Brent Harvey a modern day great?

[DTRAIN87]

If Jobe was so good then he would have matched Harvey's accolades at the same age. Harvey has dominated Watson all over career wise. Harvey was a clear cut above J Watson at the comparative age. Criticisms were drawn with Ablett and high handball statistics as many of them were accrued due to the gameplay of Geelong. This was seen as proof that leading in statistics doesn't mean you are better than another player automatically as you've claimed.

Also then is Fletcher not a moden day great either because he lacks offensive ability and because he is only a pretty good long lived player?

 

[TheOldXav]

Harvey would be identified as being superior in his position overall than Fletcher. Not sure why he is in this discussion, just like I can't understand why Jobe Watson is being raised.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Harvey would be identified as being superior in his position overall than Fletcher. Not sure why he is in this discussion, just like I can't understand why Jobe Watson is being raised.

Imo Fletcher isn't a mordern day great. He has longevity, and has just been a good, solid performer over the journey. Scarlett, Bock, Glass & Lake are all better than Fletcher.

 

[DapperDon]

Imo Fletcher isn't a mordern day great. He has longevity, and has just been a good, solid performer over the journey. Scarlett, Bock, Glass & Lake are all better than Fletcher.

Explain Bock.

This will be interesting.

 

[mufassa]

Richardson played in a horrific side, whilst Carey played in a good one. Richardson out marked and out-goaled Carey. I like your theory.....



Decided not to read the thread huh?

The reason Jobe was brought up was that as a player regarded as not great to this point in time, he relatively easily outperforms Harvey statistically.

In point of fact, he is drastically out-performed by just about every decent midfielder you care to think of.

He does get on the scoreboard though, but in this respect he's outperformed by just about every decent third tall; small forward in the game.

I'd like to say he's a jack of all trades, but he's so utterly deficient defensively that he's not much good anywhere else.

His AA selections are quite a laugh, because its apparent that he is never first picked in a position, but slotted in to support that he is 'pretty good' in two spots.

A pretty good, long lived player - out performed by dozens of players and never to be regarded as a great.

Longevity does not equal greatness, and Harvey is a glaring example of a player that has simply played a long time and has a supporter base that want him to be great - reality dictates though he never was and never will be.

Getting the ball a lot and then turning it over does not make a player elite. Watson's kicking over 30 metres is digusting. You may laugh at Harvey's AA selection but Watson with 0 AA's is funnier.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Explain Bock.

This will be interesting.

I think most people would agree on Glass & Scarlett being better defenders than Fletcher. And Lake it as his best, was the best defender I had seen this decade. Not only did he shut down the games best key forwards better than Fletcher can, but he was an absolute offensive machine as well.

Re: Bock, much underrated imo. Better body on body than Fletcher, much better at neagating the games best key forwards than Fletcher and also pretty good offensively. Look for Bock to be All Australian in 2012.

 

[Jade]

Getting the ball a lot and then turning it over does not make a player elite. Watson's kicking over 30 metres is digusting. You may laugh at Harvey's AA selection but Watson with 0 AA's is funnier.

Who's laughing?

That a player as average as Harvey can get four AAs is a damn shame; as it cheapens it for those who deserve it through domination of the league in their respective positions. Interchange; wing....

And criticism of Watson's kicking - that's new. Maybe go bump a 2007 thread when it might have been relevant.

 

[DTRAIN87]

Who's laughing?

That a player as average as Harvey can get four AAs is a damn shame; as it cheapens it for those who deserve it through domination of the league in their respective positions. Interchange; wing....

And criticism of Watson's kicking - that's new. Maybe go bump a 2007 thread when it might have been relevant.

Now you're just being bitter and showing your true bias (not that it wasn't obvious before). Harvey is better than Watson and especially at the same age. No ifs or buts about it.

 

[DapperDon]

I think most people would agree on Glass & Scarlett being better defenders than Fletcher. And Lake it as his best, was the best defender I had seen this decade. Not only did he shut down the games best key forwards better than Fletcher can, but he was an absolute offensive machine as well.

Re: Bock, much underrated imo. Better body on body than Fletcher, much better at neagating the games best key forwards than Fletcher and also pretty good offensively. Look for Bock to be All Australian in 2012.

So really you have no basis or stats to claim Bock as better, just pure personal opinion and future guess work.

Cheers.

Oh, and Lake playing one outstanding year doesn't beat Fletcher.

Glass as a pure defender is better, Fletcher is the better footballer though, as in can defend just about as good as Glass, but his attack is much better.

Scarlett no arguments from me, best defender I've seen play

 

[Jade]

If Jobe was so good then he would have matched Harvey's accolades at the same age. Harvey has dominated Watson all over career wise. Harvey was a clear cut above J Watson at the comparative age. Criticisms were drawn with Ablett and high handball statistics as many of them were accrued due to the gameplay of Geelong. This was seen as proof that leading in statistics doesn't mean you are better than another player automatically as you've claimed.

Harvey is not clear cut over Watson now; let alone over careers. Front running, weak defensive player. What I really enjoy about stats is the constant nature they present. Despite the desire of some to inflate the reputation of a player, the stats stay the same and show that Harvey is an average midfielder at best.

Couldn't give a toss with 'same age' comparisons; despite Watson's well documented slow start through lack of fitness, and then kicking deficiencies he is STILL a far better performed midfielder than Harvey; not just today - but comparing careers.

Also then is Fletcher not a moden day great either because he lacks offensive ability and because he is only a pretty good long lived player?

Start a thread on it, and i'll debate it.

What I will say though. Fletcher is not only a better defender than Harvey is midfielder - he's also better offensively than Harvey is defensively.

 

[TheOldXav]

Fletcher is the better footballer though, as in can defend just about as good as Glass

That is incorrect. I've seen Glass dominate Cloke, when he set the record for contested marks. I've also seen Tarrant & Rocca be dominated by Glass.

Whenever Fletcher has tried to go to a Cloke, Tarrant or Rocca he has got taken care of. I'm not sure Glass has been exposed by 1 player in Saverio Rocca like Fletcher did on every Anzac Day.

There are numerous other examples from other clubs too. Fletcher is nowhere as good as Glass defensively.

Harvey is not clear cut over Watson now; let alone over careers

I LOL'd.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

So really you have no basis or stats to claim Bock as better, just pure personal opinion and future guess work.

Cheers.

Oh, and Lake playing one outstanding year doesn't beat Fletcher.

Glass as a pure defender is better, Fletcher is the better footballer though, as in can defend just about as good as Glass, but his attack is much better.

Scarlett no arguments from me, best defender I've seen play

Lake has had 2 outstanding years, both rewarded with AA honours, the same amount Fletcher has had. Lakes best is better than Fletcher by some way, but Fletcher gets him for consistency and longevity of course.

I don't know if Fletcher can defend just about as good as Glass. I think Glass is just about as good as anyone I have one on one and I don't think Fletcher is quite up to that level. Agree with Fletcher being better offensively though, that's a no brainer.

Re: Bock yeah pretty much. Always been a favourite of mine.

 

[DapperDon]

Lake has had 2 outstanding years, both rewarded with AA honours, the saem amount Fletcher has had. Lakes best is better than Fletcher by some way, but Fletcher gets him for consistency and longevity of course.

I don't know if Fletcher can defend just about as good as Glass. I think Glass is just about as good as anyone I have one on one. don't think Fletcher is quite up to that. Agree with Fletcher being better offensively though, that's a no brainer.

Re: Bock yeah pretty much. Always been a favourite of mine.

Yep, 2 AA's each. One also got a B&F and AA Fullback in a premiership year.

Fletcher's non AA years have also been far superior to Lake's.

I understand you hate everything Essendon, and feel you must try and spout your personal hatred anyway you can, but this time you are just plain embarrassing yourself.

(aren't you due to start another Essendon poll soon anyway, how about a Lake v Fletcher, even better, Bock v Fletcher)

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Yep, 2 AA's each. One also got a B&F and AA Fullback in a premiership year.

Fletcher's non AA years have also been far superior to Lake's.

I understand you hate everything Essendon, and feel you must try and spout your personal hatred anyway you can, but this time you are just plain embarrassing yourself.

(aren't you due to start another Essendon poll soon anyway, how about a Lake v Fletcher, even better, Bock v Fletcher)

I thought my post was quite well balanced and resonable. Ah well, whatevs.

 

[DTRAIN87]

Harvey is not clear cut over Watson now; let alone over careers. Front running, weak defensive player. What I really enjoy about stats is the constant nature they present. Despite the desire of some to inflate the reputation of a player, the stats stay the same and show that Harvey is an average midfielder at best.

Couldn't give a toss with 'same age' comparisons; despite Watson's well documented slow start through lack of fitness, and then kicking deficiencies he is STILL a far better performed midfielder than Harvey; not just today - but comparing careers.



Start a thread on it, and i'll debate it.

What I will say though. Fletcher is not only a better defender than Harvey is midfielder - he's also better offensively than Harvey is defensively.

Yeah well done on making such an obvious statement. Do you expect them to be when one is in their prime and the other is in their twilight? The joke is they're still relatively close.

That's Watson's fault he is not or was not as skillful as Harvey. Watson is nowhere near as good as Harvey over careers. Harvey's accolades compared with Watson's makes this statement laughable. People would look on Harvey's vs Watson's career in 20 years and think Harvey has done alright for himself while Watson hasn't really done much at all. All you are doing is showing your Watson bias and embarrassing yourself in the process.

As for wanting me to start a thread nn Fletcher, it really makes me feel you want nothing more than to avoid the debate.

 

[Kong]

Jade, there's no way Jobe's matched or bettered Harvey's career to date.

Come on, mate, take the glasses off.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Harvey is not clear cut over Watson now; let alone over careers. Front running, weak defensive player. What I really enjoy about stats is the constant nature they present. Despite the desire of some to inflate the reputation of a player, the stats stay the same and show that Harvey is an average midfielder at best.

Couldn't give a toss with 'same age' comparisons; despite Watson's well documented slow start through lack of fitness, and then kicking deficiencies he is STILL a far better performed midfielder than Harvey; not just today - but comparing careers.

I personally think Harvey has had a much, much, much better career than Watson, so much so, they shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence yet. Each to their own though.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Jade, there's no way Jobe's matched or bettered Harvey's career to date.

Come on, mate, take the glasses off.

Hurely v Butcher wouldn't be the worst poll in the world, but at this stage I would take Hurley and so would all 18 clubs.

 

[Jade]

Jade, there's no way Jobe's matched or bettered Harvey's career to date.

Come on, mate, take the glasses off.

I hear ya mate. I see a lot of LOLs, and 'take the glasses off', but no one can come up with anything to dispute the statistical analysis. I'm pushing hard on this one, but has it not struck anyone yet that the reason its so easy to do so is because in the cold hard light of day Harvey has simply not been as good as some would like to think.

Back to the OP - Is Harvey a great - the answer is a resounding NO.

 

[DTRAIN87]

I hear ya mate. I see a lot of LOLs, and 'take the glasses off', but no one can come up with anything to dispute the statistical analysis. I'm pushing hard on this one, but has it not struck anyone yet that the reason its so easy to do so is because in the cold hard light of day Harvey has simply not been as good as some would like to think.

Back to the OP - Is Harvey a great - the answer is a resounding NO.

This is just the same as the Ablett/Dunstall/Lockett full forward debate. Just because Dunstall kicked more goals than Ablett doesn't mean he is better. You need to look at things other than stats to determine this. Ablett may have only had 15 possessions a game but it was what he did with them that made him great.

In fact John Coleman is a better example. Nerver got close to some of the forwards tallies like Fevola, Abett etc but was still given the honour of having the Goalkicking award named in his honour.

 

[Jade]

This is just the same as the Ablett/Dunstall/Lockett full forward debate. Just because Dunstall kicked more goals than Ablett doesn't mean he is better. You need to look at things other than stats to determine this. Ablett may have only had 15 possessions a game but it was what he did with them that made him great.

Very true, but if you have statistical support for more goals, more marks, ran harder, more tackles etc etc than you aren't talking about one stat, you're talking about several that paint a picture.

Harvey was/is a front running player who never subscribed to a team first philosophy. He is next to useless defensively and is not amongst the best contested ball winners of this or any other era.

He doesn't hit the scoreboard enough to consistently be the difference in games - so what the hell is he doing to be considered great?

There isn't a vital element in the game that he does to make him great.

A very good player (as I have consistently said); but simply not deserving of being labelled great.

 

[mufassa]

Harvey is not clear cut over Watson now; let alone over careers. Front running, weak defensive player.
.

This is an easy game - Watson is a slow player that is not fit enough to run both ways and has terrible foot skills.

 

[mufassa]

Very true, but if you have statistical support for more goals, more marks, ran harder, more tackles etc etc than you aren't talking about one stat, you're talking about several that paint a picture.

Harvey was/is a front running player who never subscribed to a team first philosophy. He is next to useless defensively and is not amongst the best contested ball winners of this or any other era.

He doesn't hit the scoreboard enough to consistently be the difference in games - so what the hell is he doing to be considered great?

There isn't a vital element in the game that he does to make him great.

A very good player (as I have consistently said); but simply not deserving of being labelled great.

One of the best with goal assists in the modern era but is not team first.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

This is just the same as the Ablett/Dunstall/Lockett full forward debate. Just because Dunstall kicked more goals than Ablett doesn't mean he is better. You need to look at things other than stats to determine this. Ablett may have only had 15 possessions a game but it was what he did with them that made him great.

In fact John Coleman is a better example. Nerver got close to some of the forwards tallies like Fevola, Abett etc but was still given the honour of having the Goalkicking award named in his honour.

But Dunstall is considered a top 10 player to ever play the game in most peoples opinions In fact, Sheehan ranked him 5th greatest all-time ahead of Lockett at 6 but behind Ablett who was 4. Not much seperating them at all.

Peter Hudson is another good example. Averaged more goals than anyone to ever play the game ( inc Coleman ), yet only played 129 games. He is widely regarded as a top 20 player to ever play despite only kicking 727 goals.

 

[DapperDon]

I thought my post was quite well balanced and resonable. Ah well, whatevs.

This is your problem.