Is Nick Daicos The Best First Year Player Of All Time?

[jim boy]

Except for the fact that you opened with "dinky stat gathering", the clear implication being disposals. I was addressing that.

Except you didn't - you just went straight to insults -as if that ever really wins arguments.

 

[gouki88]

Except you didn't - you just went straight to insults -as if that ever really wins arguments.

So sowwy for insulting someone parroting the same nonsense that has already been debunked week after week. Xx

 

[jim boy]

So sowwy for insulting someone parroting the same nonsense that has already been debunked week after week. Xx

LoL - cant help yourself can you?

Do I have to spell this out to you?
I questioned the validity of the statement that Daicos was the best first year player based purely on the quantity of possessions he was getting.
You jumped in like and said yeah that's right - he is the greatest ever based upon the quantity of possessions
I called you out.
You backtrack massively and say it is the quality, not just quantity.
I agreed that quality counts and that makes for a good argument
You cant take that.

 

[La Dispute]

How many on this forum were blowing their loads week in week out when Gary Ablett junior was clocking up 35 touches and kicking a couple of goals a week 10 years into his career?

So many of his possessions were also 1-2's or his younger teammates forcibly passing him the ball and waiting for some magic to happen.

Every high volume accumulator has plenty of touches that aren't super damaging, whether it's Oliver or Macrae or Mitchell. Daicos combines elite long kicking with chains of possession out of defence - what else would you expect? On a case by base basis he'd still be up there as one of the most damaging users of the ball league-wide.

 

[VinnieB]

He is very, very good. Has contributed massively to us winning close games.
Seems to thrive under pressure kicking clutch goals or using the ball well resulting in goals the team has needed at important periods of the game.

Doesn't chip backwards playing 'kick to kick' on the backline like other half backs. Always moving the ball forward looking to put the Pies in a better attacking position.

Don't care if he is the best 1st year player or not. Obviously in the conversation. But he is a ripper and will only get better.

 

[Moti]

To the question, he is in the discussion for the way he has impacted. I saw McAdam go crazy in his first year and was more impactful but Daicos has been consistent. Like most of these discussions, always hard to agree on one player, rather than a basket.

I also think that Daicos actually benefited from COVID. A lot of players come out of the Junior system playing 25-30 games across U18 comps, U18 champs and school. They seem to need a fair amount of time to get themselves right for the following year and they take a lot of bruising through the year or so.

Daicos has had almost 2 years to perfect his body without the need to maintain a "match day" readiness, and it shows, he is perfectly chiseled and is running games out beautifully. Now, this only works if you are an elite talent with high-level skills, so perhaps only 2-5 players a year could pull that off because most players need the junior years to hone their skills, but Daicos is already well advanced here.

 

[Dundalis]

To the question, he is in the discussion for the way he has impacted. I saw McAdam go crazy in his first year and was more impactful but Daicos has been consistent. Like most of these discussions, always hard to agree on one player, rather than a basket.

I also think that Daicos actually benefited from COVID. A lot of players come out of the Junior system playing 25-30 games across U18 comps, U18 champs and school. They seem to need a fair amount of time to get themselves right for the following year and they take a lot of bruising through the year or so.

Daicos has had almost 2 years to perfect his body without the need to maintain a "match day" readiness, and it shows, he is perfectly chiseled and is running games out beautifully. Now, this only works if you are an elite talent with high-level skills, so perhaps only 2-5 players a year could pull that off because most players need the junior years to hone their skills, but Daicos is already well advanced here.

He's not remotely perfectly chiselled. He's a twig and will want plenty of physical development over the next few years to get much stronger. You can tell he's not great coping in the thick of heavily physical contests, he uses his nous to find space slightly away from the congestion. If he had JHF's physique, you are probably talking the best AFL prospect we've ever seen. He actually runs out games well because for a high possession getting player, he's brilliant at avoiding big taxing physical hits due to his unreal ability to position himself perfectly, weave through traffic to find space and dish quickly before they come.

 

[Dundalis]

LoL - when you're doing dinky handball stat gatherings as a half bank flanker who neither defends nor has anyone defending them as Daicos was yesterday (and this isn''t a dig at daics, its just how it was), its pretty easy to gather stats. If you think the mark of a great player is based purely upon the number of possessions, ok, then sure, you do what you do!

I'm curious about all these AFL players that rack these kinds of numbers up since it's so easy. There are 3 players in the AFL who have played as high a percentage as Daicos off a back flank that average more touches than he does. I guess players just choose not to rack up touches, cause they are scared of criticism like this, obviously they could all do if they wanted to! Also there are only a small number of players who also average both more metres gained and higher disposal efficiency than him too.

Has a team put work into him yet to try and curb his influence.

Would not mind sitting Guelfi on him next week as a tagger across half forward.

I'm sure he'll deal with more tags and may struggle with them, but he's not a stationary player, and doesn't particularly move to typical ball getting positions in the contest I don't think. He's typically a secondary rather than primary ball winner also. It will be interesting, but I have a feeling he'll be relatively tag resistant because of the constant movement.

 

[Looney]

The answer is yes. Stats aside, I can't think of another first year player to have this kind of impact on the game than Naicos. He has single handedly dug us out of a few holes this year. We wouldn't be where we are on the ladder without him.

 

[ZEV]

Mate he had 8, 9, 10, 11 and a 12 possession games.
I don't care how many were contested not all his games that season were brilliant. And he certainly didn't kick 5 that season.
I agree in so much that he was one of the best debut years but still people over state it and use memories of non debut year games.

Daicos is nearing 100 more disposals then him with 5 games left, and his skill by foot is miles in front of Judd's who was a very average kick of the pill. They play different roles, can only judged based off how they play that role. Nicks meters gained is high for a first year player too be interesting to compare with Judd's given he also carried the pill a lot.
Fly said they had waited to pull the trigger on Nick as a fwd half player noting that he was watching every week nick kicking goals at training and was effectively : i want to use him fwd but held back.
If they allow Nick more freedom I have no doubt the goals will keep coming.

Michael Voss had an 8 possesion game that season and he was the best player in the AFL, Black had a 10 possesion game that year and won the Brownlow.

Judd was brutal and devastating and changed footy.

I havent compared him to Daicos once and not even going to try, but lets not undersell Judd short.

 

[2006_Eagles]

Him or Judd

 

[Looney]

Judd's first season was so long ago, I kinda forget what he was like.

 

[Ingeniokinetic]

Grant or Judd, for now and on balance Judd, forget the numbers, he put the ball into space and was an amazing user of the ball,
Hogan beating Rance in a marking contest was nice but no. Daicos still has 5 games and a finals series, so just maybe... Will say that Daicos could end up being in the top 5 father/sons though, lets see.

Top 5 father sons - MFC bias showing:

Gary Ablett snr and Gary Ablett jnr
Ron Barassi Sr and Ron Barassi Jr
Tim Watson and Jobe Watson
David Cloke and Travis Cloke
John Kennedy jnr and Josh Kennedy

 

[gouki88]

Grant or Judd, for now and on balance Judd, forget the numbers, he put the ball into space and was an amazing user of the ball,
Hogan beating Rance in a marking contest was nice but no. Daicos still has 5 games and a finals series, so just maybe... Will say that Daicos could end up being in the top 5 father/sons though, lets see.

Top 5 father sons - MFC bias showing:

Gary Ablett snr and Gary Ablett jnr
Ron Barassi Sr and Ron Barassi Jr
Tim Watson and Jobe Watson
David Cloke and Travis Cloke
John Kennedy jnr and Josh Kennedy

Serge & Stephen are glaring omissions

 

[Freomaniac]

Could I throw Nathan Buckleys 1993 season with Brisbane? Won the rising star that year.

Brad Hardie 1st season in the VFL got him a Brownlow medal

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

Tim Watson and Jobe Watson

*

 

[Freomaniac]

And Cyril was even better than Rhys in 2008

Mind you, Rhys Palmer edged out Cyril rioli in that 2008 rising star because Palmer stood out in a crap Freo side. Cyril got a premiership medal that year anyway.

 

[hk89]

Let me start by saying I think Daicos has had an amazing year, and will almost certainly win the rising star. Stats wise however, his main stand out is the volume of uncontested ball he's been able to win rather than excelling across most of the stats considered high impact. This is partly due to his position however, as things like score involvements, clearances and inside 50s are hard to come by when you're playing from the back half, and not a coal-face midfielders. Having said that, he's not even top in the rising star eligible players for average number of intercepts, rebound 50s (he's top for total rebound 50s having played every game compared to some of the other defenders that are eligible) or metres gained, which a half back flanker should be well set to do well in.

So he's not #1 in averages for any of:

• Metres gained
• Inside 50s
• Rebound 50s
• Marks
• Score involvements
• Intercepts
• Contested possessions
• Tackles (this is probably his worst stat by far)
• Clearances

General speaking quality inside mids are considered more valuable to the team than half back flankers because they can more easily impact the key drivers of the game. I'm sure the plan is for Daicos to be playing more up the ground as his career develops, but until he can prove he can handle that jump, I find it difficult to compare him to the gun first year players of previous seasons who were playing full time midfield in their first year. Of course any team would be happy to have someone like Daicos playing off half back or the wing in their team (first year or otherwise). I think his rising star win will be very well deserved, and despite not dominating across the board stats wise (outside of getting a lot of it), he's clearly been a key contributor to some of Collingwood's wins. I just think others in past years have done as well while playing in harder roles, but it is not easy to compare him to players like Judd given the role differences.

 

[HeathySure]

H

Let me start by saying I think Daicos has had an amazing year, and will almost certainly win the rising star. Stats wise however, his main stand out is the volume of uncontested ball he's been able to win rather than excelling across most of the stats considered high impact. This is partly due to his position however, as things like score involvements, clearances and inside 50s are hard to come by when you're playing from the back half, and not a coal-face midfielders. Having said that, he's not even top in the rising star eligible players for average number of intercepts, rebound 50s (he's top for total rebound 50s having played every game compared to some of the other defenders that are eligible) or metres gained, which a half back flanker should be well set to do well in.

So he's not #1 in averages for any of:

• Metres gained
• Inside 50s
• Rebound 50s
• Marks
• Score involvements
• Intercepts
• Contested possessions
• Tackles (this is probably his worst stat by far)
• Clearances

General speaking quality inside mids are considered more valuable to the team than half back flankers because they can more easily impact the key drivers of the game. I'm sure the plan is for Daicos to be playing more up the ground as his career develops, but until he can prove he can handle that jump, I find it difficult to compare him to the gun first year players of previous seasons who were playing full time midfield in their first year. Of course any team would be happy to have someone like Daicos playing off half back or the wing in their team (first year or otherwise). I think his rising star win will be very well deserved, and despite not dominating across the board stats wise (outside of getting a lot of it), he's clearly been a key contributor to some of Collingwood's wins. I just think others in past years have done as well while playing in harder roles, but it is not easy to compare him to players like Judd given the role differences.

You need to watch the games . He has been a matchwinner from half back. There has been at least 3 games in the last 5 where we don't win without him playing. Maybe even all 5.

 

[hk89]

H

You need to watch the games . He has been a matchwinner from half back. There has been at least 3 games in the last 5 where we don't win without him playing. Maybe even all 5.

Yeah, some of what I said wouldn't apply if he'd played the full season like he'd played the last 3 games, as he's been much more impactful in recent games. However my enthusiasm is somewhat tempered by the fact that those last 3 games were against Adelaide, Suns and North. Suns are an improved team this year, but the other two have been ordinary, and Suns are still going to struggle to make the 8. I'm not saying he can't perform against quality opposition, and the fact that his best games are coming late in the year are good sign of his development over the year, but as a body of work, his entire season hasn't been super impactful up until his recent batch of games. If he can reproduce the current run of form in finals, I'll be willing to concede he may in fact be the best first year player ever!

 

[loki04]

Michael Voss had an 8 possesion game that season and he was the best player in the AFL, Black had a 10 possesion game that year and won the Brownlow.

Judd was brutal and devastating and changed footy.

I havent compared him to Daicos once and not even going to try, but lets not undersell Judd short.

Firstly Voss was not better then Buckley, and secondly Voss that day was obviously poor which was my point with judd.

Judd had multiple games on that scale that season, it is overlooked because the few times he got it he looked amazing breaking from packs.

Lastly how did I sell him short when I said even given that it was still one of the best debut seasons?
The issue for mine is, it's overstated how good his entire year was and people post up games from other seasons to make the argument for his debut year.

 

[NetworkNerd]

Both John Platten and Craig Bradley had a good first year in 1986.

Platten: 20 disposals more than a goal a game. 14 Brownlow votes and a flag
Bradley: 24 disposals more than a goal a game. 9 Brownlow votes and a GF appearance

But not sure they counts as a) Both were 23yo accomplished SANFL players and b) Era of plumbers and bricklayers

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

‘Incredible’: Chris Judd blown away by Nick Daicos’ stunning debut season

Two-time Brownlow medallist Chris Judd played one of the game’s greatest debut seasons, and even he is blown away by the staggering first-year campaign of Collingwood’s Nick Daicos.

www.theage.com.au

“I am not watching every week, but I can’t remember, ever, a first-year player being anywhere near that sort of level, to be honest,” Judd said on Monday.

Still might not be the best ever (can't measure that), but puts an end to the "easy" position argument one would think.

 

[VinnieB]

Grant or Judd, for now and on balance Judd, forget the numbers, he put the ball into space and was an amazing user of the ball,
Hogan beating Rance in a marking contest was nice but no. Daicos still has 5 games and a finals series, so just maybe... Will say that Daicos could end up being in the top 5 father/sons though, lets see.

Top 5 father sons - MFC bias showing:

Gary Ablett snr and Gary Ablett jnr
Ron Barassi Sr and Ron Barassi Jr
Tim Watson and Jobe Watson
David Cloke and Travis Cloke
John Kennedy jnr and Josh Kennedy

Daicos is an amazing user of the ball. Probably already one of the best in the game. That’s the difference between him and other half backs (even midfielders who just accumulate). He uses the ball extremely well to attack and put the Pies in a better, attacking position. And in the heat of close games, he delivers.

 

[theyellowsash]

Rhys palmer also averaged 23+ disposals a game.

Just getting the ball on a flank doesn't necessarily mean best.