Jordan, Kobe or LeBron?

[blackcat]

I said ahead. Not clearly ahead. Unlike some dills on this thread I’m not arguing “its Lebron cut and dry” I’m arguing you can’t objectively reach a conclusion that Jordan is more clutch.

Now the stats to which I refer are

last 10 second go ahead playoff shots

Lebron 7-14

Jordan 5-11

Game winning buzzer beaters in the playoffs

Lebron 5

Jordan 3

Elimination game scoring numbers

Lebron 34

Jordan 31 despite the fact Jordan is the “scorer” of the two

Elimination game record

Lebron 13-10

Jordan 6-7 that’s right Jordan has a losing record in elimination games

Game 7 record

Lebron 6-2

Jordan 2-1


Lebron is statistically unrivalled (only recorded since 2000 in go ahead last 5 second shooting, with 4.8 points more than expected for the shots taken, and over 8 when weighted for leverage (as he’s played so many finals games). And this source was published before two more buzzer beaters this year.


So now that I’ve established that you can’t objectively reach a conclusion where Jordan is more clutch, I’ll add something on your obsession with the “regular season clutchness” (tee hee).

As I’ve stated, Lebron’s season this year is one of the most clutch of all time.

You have claimed he is a WOAT regular season clutch (tee hee) player.

Well when not on a super team ie when the regular season has mattered beyond an iota thus necessitating the description “clutch” let’s look at Lebron’s achievements.

2007 he was 3rd in the nba for clutch scoring with a tonnes better assist rate and blew the competition apart for net rating.

2008 top clutch scorer in the league with a clutch net rating more than 100 superior to the next guy

2009 top 10 clutch scoring with the best clutch net rating in the top 10

2010 best clutch scorer in the league again and easily the best clutch net rating.

So despite the fact that regular season clutchness is a stupid paradox, you have no point.

^#Shaqtin' #thefool

this #ZG insufferable cat does not even appreciate his meta argument

here it is, MJ got to beat up DelCurry,KendalGill,JonStarks,JoeDumars,RonHarper,AlvinRobertson,MichaelCooper,ByronScott,DennisScott,SydneyMoncrief,MitchRichmond,SARAUNUSMARCIULONISGOAT,VinnieJohnson,BobbyPhills,ReggieMiller,IsaiahRider,HaroldMiner,HerseyHawkins,DanMarjele,DrazenPetrovic,TerryPorter,ClydeDrexler,NateMacMillan,ReggieLewis,BrentBarry,DeeBrown,EddieJones,JimmyJackson... most chumps on defensive end 6'3"(average/mean) not length in lever.

 

[fidstar]

I said ahead. Not clearly ahead. Unlike some dills on this thread I’m not arguing “its Lebron cut and dry” I’m arguing you can’t objectively reach a conclusion that Jordan is more clutch.

Now the stats to which I refer are

last 10 second go ahead playoff shots

Lebron 7-14

Jordan 5-11

Game winning buzzer beaters in the playoffs

Lebron 5

Jordan 3

Elimination game scoring numbers

Lebron 34

Jordan 31 despite the fact Jordan is the “scorer” of the two

Elimination game record

Lebron 13-10

Jordan 6-7 that’s right Jordan has a losing record in elimination games

Game 7 record

Lebron 6-2

Jordan 2-1

You do obviously realize that these numbers aren't that different? MJ is actually 3-1 in Game 7/5 btw (but I guess because it is against MJ you don't count Game 5s when it was a best of 5 series?).

And you obviously realize that MJ never really faced elimination in his prime? He had two elimination games from the time he was 26 to the time he retired, so you'll probably find that MJ only really had elimination games against better teams when he was 26 and under. Being that MJ never lost a series when his team was a higher seed, he would have been a dog in most of those elimination games.

So, really none of your numbers (which are close anyway), show that you can't argue MJ is more clutch.

And I've said already that LeBron is clutch in the playoffs. Your numbers back that up. But MJ is number 1.

Lebron is statistically unrivalled (only recorded since 2000 in go ahead last 5 second shooting, with 4.8 points more than expected for the shots taken, and over 8 when weighted for leverage (as he’s played so many finals games). And this source was published before two more buzzer beaters this year.

So... when MJ wasn't playing? Not sure how relevant that is to our discussion, being that you can't compare it to anything, and I've already openly said LeBron is clutch...

So now that I’ve established that you can’t objectively reach a conclusion where Jordan is more clutch, I’ll add something on your obsession with the “regular season clutchness” (tee hee).

As I’ve stated, Lebron’s season this year is one of the most clutch of all time.

You have claimed he is a WOAT regular season clutch (tee hee) player.

Well when not on a super team ie when the regular season has mattered beyond an iota thus necessitating the description “clutch” let’s look at Lebron’s achievements.

2007 he was 3rd in the nba for clutch scoring with a tonnes better assist rate and blew the competition apart for net rating.

2008 top clutch scorer in the league with a clutch net rating more than 100 superior to the next guy

2009 top 10 clutch scoring with the best clutch net rating in the top 10

2010 best clutch scorer in the league again and easily the best clutch net rating.

So despite the fact that regular season clutchness is a stupid paradox, you have no point.

He was good this regular season in the clutch. That doesn't make up for 10 years of being 5/47 though.

Do you see why?

Also, I'd love to see where these stats come from. I mean in 2010 he was the "best clutch scorer". What does that mean? The most points? Doesn't matter if he shoots 5/27?

 

[blackcat]

Also, I'd love to see where these stats come from. I mean in 2010 he was the "best clutch scorer". What does that mean? The most points? Doesn't matter if he shoots 5/27?

usually this cat just rips off and plagiarises Zac Lowe of ESPN. Put Lowe's references thru that academic software that spincycles plagiarism and boom.

#eponymousplagiariser when gift horse staring him in mouth gives a gap-toothed yokel rejection

 

[Zgope1]

You do obviously realize that these numbers aren't that different? MJ is actually 3-1 in Game 7/5 btw (but I guess because it is against MJ you don't count Game 5s when it was a best of 5 series?).

And you obviously realize that MJ never really faced elimination in his prime? He had two elimination games from the time he was 26 to the time he retired, so you'll probably find that MJ only really had elimination games against better teams when he was 26 and under. Being that MJ never lost a series when his team was a higher seed, he would have been a dog in most of those elimination games.

So, really none of your numbers (which are close anyway), show that you can't argue MJ is more clutch.

And I've said already that LeBron is clutch in the playoffs. Your numbers back that up. But MJ is number 1.




So... when MJ wasn't playing? Not sure how relevant that is to our discussion, being that you can't compare it to anything, and I've already openly said LeBron is clutch...




He was good this regular season in the clutch. That doesn't make up for 10 years of being 5/47 though.

Do you see why?

Also, I'd love to see where these stats come from. I mean in 2010 he was the "best clutch scorer". What does that mean? The most points? Doesn't matter if he shoots 5/27?

Alright you have proven your reading comprehension to be useless so I give up.

Your post is a giant symbol of you ignoring or not understanding the meaning of “MJ cannot objectively concluded to be more clutch”. Not changing your opinion and it being correct are not mutually exclusive, so you’ve proven me right by repeating your unprovable opinion.

Explaining that Jordan was in less clutch situations has nothing to do with how clutch he was. Unless you drastically stretch the meaning of the word clutch so as to nullify this debate. It reflects well on his quality but that is a separate debate (where I’ll argue the same thing, but let’s keep that separate).

And that the numbers are close (with Lebron ahead in all scenarios I presented) isn’t really convincing me that Jordan can definitively be described as more clutch, especially when they are all directly related to clutchness. I mean, none of them support the Jordan argument, and they all lean in the other direction in a minute way or not.

I give up with your stupid reg season paradox. How you can still think your argument carries any weight there is beyond me and having you ignore that comprehensive data irritates the s*** out of me.

I got that data directly off nba.com stats section FYI. And it means he scored the most clutch points and I proved that it DOES matter as it correlates with his elite net rating in all events. Hardly empty points.

I didn’t realise Jordan had a game 5 in a 5 game series win so I apologise for that. His elimination game record is still inferior though so that’s not getting you there.

Now go look up the words objective and conclusion, put them together, try and memorise that and acknowledge it in your next post or stop wasting my time by arguing for YOUR opinion, not some objective fact you think exists but doesn’t.

Oh and look up the word paradox too. Clutch and high stakes go together, regardless of how flimsy I’ve proven that element of your argument to be.

 

[fidstar]

Alright you have proven your reading comprehension to be useless so I give up.

Your post is a giant symbol of you ignoring or not understanding the meaning of “MJ cannot objectively concluded to be more clutch”. Not changing your opinion and it being correct are not mutually exclusive, so you’ve proven me right by repeating your unprovable opinion.

Explaining that Jordan was in less clutch situations has nothing to do with how clutch he was. Unless you drastically stretch the meaning of the word clutch so as to nullify this debate. It reflects well on his quality but that is a separate debate (where I’ll argue the same thing, but let’s keep that separate).

And that the numbers are close (with Lebron ahead in all scenarios I presented) isn’t really convincing me that Jordan can definitively be described as more clutch, especially when they are all directly related to clutchness. I mean, none of them support the Jordan argument, and they all lean in the other direction in a minute way or not.

I give up with your stupid reg season paradox. How you can still think your argument carries any weight there is beyond me and having you ignore that comprehensive data irritates the s*** out of me.

I got that data directly off nba.com stats section FYI. And it means he scored the most clutch points and I proved that it DOES matter as it correlates with his elite net rating in all events. Hardly empty points.

I didn’t realise Jordan had a game 5 in a 5 game series win so I apologise for that. His elimination game record is still inferior though so that’s not getting you there.

Now go look up the words objective and conclusion, put them together, try and memorise that and acknowledge it in your next post or stop wasting my time by arguing for YOUR opinion, not some objective fact you think exists but doesn’t.

Oh and look up the word paradox too. Clutch and high stakes go together, regardless of how flimsy I’ve proven that element of your argument to be.

Why are you being so aggressive? Mom forget to bring lunch down to the basement again?

jfc... it's an argument on an irreverent internet forum. Actually have a discussion.

 

[blackcat]

Why are you being so aggressive? Mom forget to bring lunch down to the basement again?

jfc... it's an argument on an irreverent internet forum. Actually have a discussion.

obviously irrationally invested in the LBJ marsupial[sic]GOAT rabbit hole.

fwiw... I was assuming game3 and 4/5/6series neutered those final game series, and the non-last5secondstatcategory pre2000 was basis of that clutch sentence. hence i drive a #tesla
________when did the conference quarter finals and conference semi-finals move to best of 7. ZG may not be aware the first two rounds were best of five. Usually bulls would sweep in 3. I assume it was David Stern about a decade ago. I prefer David Stern and Richard Falk.

#philo_101logic
#Poe's_law

 

[javaguice]

Why are you being so aggressive? Mom forget to bring lunch down to the basement again?

jfc... it's an argument on an irreverent internet forum. Actually have a discussion.

"MJ cannot objectively concluded to be more clutch" - in HIS opinion.

The guys an arshat and you are better off just ignoring him.

Life is too short for complete forkwits.

I can tell you actually watched MJ and we can both be content in knowing that WE actually witnessed his greatness so can objectively conclude what WE both KNOW because WE got to see both players.

This z-clown flog is an ignoramus and thinks his argument is superior because it suits his rhetoric.

Who actually cares what the flog THINKS - the poll shows that he is in the minority!!!!

Power to him, I guess. I bet he has a bucket on is head for when he runs into walls.

 

[javaguice]

https://www.rappler.com/sports/by-s...es-michael-jordan-debate-over-charles-barkley

Someone more qualified than z-goose

 

[javaguice]

Lebron has now lost as many finals as Jordan won.

GOAT my left foot.

Argument officially over.

 

[fidstar]

Lebron has now lost as many finals as Jordan won.

GOAT my left foot.

Argument officially over.

It's actually weird he uses team win/losses in elimination/Game 7s games as evidence of pro LeBron, but would be the first one to say "It's not LeBron's fault that his team is 3-6 in Finals".

Can I say the same about MJ? In the stats he used above?

Like his only Game 7 loss came in a game his teammates shot 23.8% from the field, and 11.7% from 3s?

But somehow that means MJ isn't clutch?????

 

[Jcpdragonx]

Lebron is the superior clutch player to Jordan in almost every measure. You’d have to be pretty anecdotal and just plain biased to argue otherwise nowadays.

Oh no.

The last few mins of 2016 was a brick off between steph and lebron, until Kyrie saved his legacy. Bogut's injury cost them big time since Lebron had free reign over the rim after game 5. Great win for Lebron but thank you Kyrie Irving.

Ray Allen also saved his legacy with the best clutch shot of all time from a fluke rebound. Thank you Ray Allen.

If we're talking clutch then 6-0 vs 3-6 in the most clutch games.

 

[blackcat]

we see everything thru the temporal lens.

MJ was bolstered by Nike becoming a billion USD company. Erving never did that w the ABA then 76ers NBA.
but sans Nike and ESPN, MJ is Bill Russell, Lew Alcindor, Larry joe Bird, Ervin magic Johnson, Wilt Chamberlain
.... (and David Stern)

*caveat, required both mental and athletic tour-de-force of MJ and a mature consumer economy in 80's. Marketing, internet, Instagram, YouTube followed and plays its part in accretion of US star system culture. ZG is a groupie innit

*symbiosis

....MJ did not make Nike, but he kinda did shape their face

 

[javaguice]

https://www.quora.com/Is-LeBron-James-statistically-a-better-player-than-Michael-Jordan

Good read - acknowledges that Lebron is more of a stat stuffer than Jordan was.

Jordan the better WINNER

I guess it depends on how you define GOAT

Is it the individuals statistics (numbers dont tell everything)

Its NON-DEBATABLE that Jordan was the better winner.

Better defender? Jordan

But Lebron has some really impressive stats.

 

[blackcat]

Its NON-DEBATABLE that Jordan was the better winner.

less depth in competition...

Drazen Petrovic, Saraunus Marciulonis, Detlef Schrempf only euros... don't tell me USSR's or Lithuania's grateful dead Arvidas Sabonis he could barely shuffle up the floor by the time he came across

 

[javaguice]

less depth in competition...

Drazen Petrovic, Saraunus Marciulonis, Detlef Schrempf only euros... don't tell me USSR's or Lithuania's grateful dead Arvidas Sabonis he could barely shuffle up the floor by the time he came across

We can hardly hold that against him.....he did it against the best players in the world at the time.

 

[blackcat]

We can hardly hold that against him.....he did it against the best players in the world at the time.

arguable, Oscar never came from Brazil, USSR won 76 Olympics, Yugoslavia had great depth... apart from foreign players graduating US colleges like Duncan at Virginia Tech(think I got that wrong) and Mutumbo cant remember his alma mater Hakeem at Houston university w Drexler, only foreigner I remember is a Purto Rico/an player at... Atlanta?

 

[peternorth]

Charles Oakley in a podcast with Bill Simmons said it best.

One is 6'9" and size 13
The other is 6'6" and size 11

Different eras, where players in the 80s and 90s were put on their back, no layups. And fights. No hold me backs (fake tough as Oak called it like garnett). MJ was alpha dog .

 

[blackcat]

Charles Oakley in a podcast with Bill Simmons said it best.

One is 6'9" and size 13
The other is 6'6" and size 11

Different eras, where players in the 80s and 90s were put on their back, no layups. And fights. No hold me backs (fake tough as Oak called it like garnett). MJ was alpha dog .

Oakley one of MJ's few bball friends

 

[javaguice]

Charles Oakley in a podcast with Bill Simmons said it best.

One is 6'9" and size 13
The other is 6'6" and size 11

Different eras, where players in the 80s and 90s were put on their back, no layups. And fights. No hold me backs (fake tough as Oak called it like garnett). MJ was alpha dog .

Good point

Lebron would struggle with the old piston teams

Rodman
Mahorn
Laimbeer
Aguirre
Dumars

All tough defenders

Rodman could own magic

Would have been a great matchup against lebron

Boy would he have got in lebrons head

 

[javaguice]

arguable, Oscar never came from Brazil, USSR won 76 Olympics, Yugoslavia had great depth... apart from foreign players graduating US colleges like Duncan at Virginia Tech(think I got that wrong) and Mutumbo cant remember his alma mater Hakeem at Houston university w Drexler, only foreigner I remember is a Purto Rico/an player at... Atlanta?

USSR beat a US team before pro's were allowed to play

 

[fidstar]

Anyone who thinks LeBron would have problems in the 80s/90s because it was "too tough" is just being silly.

LeBron would kill it back then, just like he is now.

You do know he is bigger and stronger than everyone on that Pistons team?

 

[blackcat]

ZG can you please provide Kobes's clutch stats

 

[blackcat]

Anyone who thinks LeBron would have problems in the 80s/90s because it was "too tough" is just being silly.

LeBron would kill it back then, just like he is now.

You do know he is bigger and stronger than everyone on that Pistons team?

I don't buy this talking point or meme that the 80s and 90s were tougher.

Yeah we had Knicks enforcer Mason, Anthony Mason RIP, but Ron Arrest was about the same dimensions and spanned both eras, Shaq did, Ben Wallace did, Larry Johnson was the first era, then the backend of that era was the Arkansas Razorbacks fwd like LJ... aside from Barkley and he was fat out of Alabama, no one managed muscle power and elite Larry joe Bird like skill... who was the obese 6'9" Phoenix centre? Elliot Miller? <someone> Miller.

 

[blackcat]

did ever_so*[sic] insufferable ZG1 submit to defeat? ...I reckon...

*insufferable is an absolute so grammar won't permit amplifier, a pleonasm otoh

Zgope1 Chief, he of unmatched wisdom can you please change ZG1's handle to 'ZG_the_insufferable' cheers

 

[Jack Richards]

Jordan hands down.

- Had the flu and still dominated in a game.
- All time leader in scoring per game
- made the first offensive and defensive team in the same year.