Rustin Cohle
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Number 1 issue facing young leg spinners is s**t club captains who have no idea how to encourage or set fields to spin. It's why so few barely make it past club level.
Lack of spinners in Australia
- Thread starter Franco Vazquez
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This has some truth to it. However I reckon some just get found out when they reach a certain point because they don’t spin it hard enough or aren’t accurate enough.
It’s not that hard to set a decent field tk a spinner, and if the captain really isn’t that clueless (generally they know what they’re doing once they reach a decent level) then the bowler should push back against it as they’re the one bowling the ball.
You never heard of Swepson? that should have played at SCG imo
We got spinners. Whether we developing or supporting them enough is another thing.
Boyce look promising but sense not developed properly and white ball cricket may have ruined a possible Test player to develop.
Zampa similar but always sensed Zampa more a white ball type cricketer than genuine Test type spinner.
Pope and Sangha are around now and very young.
I worry more that playing too much Big Bash or IPL may not suite some spinners develop the type of temperament and tactics to become Test match cricketers. But T20 cricket not been around long enough to know if it truly stunts some spin bowlers becoming something more.
in theory, yes. because you want a team who can exploit all conditions.
historically, no.
shane warne's average before we drew the 1993 series in new zealand - 12 bat / 37 ball. upward curve.
greg matthews was who i had in mind before looking a bit more.
pretty much had those stats on the plane to india 1986 as our #1 spinner, in which we took away a drawn series.
same deal, sri lanka 1992. took away a win before we became all-conquering mid 90's.
trevor hohns was our number one spinner in the 1989 ashes. he improved his stats over the series to end his career at 22 bat / 34 bowl.
surplus to guys like alderman who destroyed england.
our wicket taking spinners in south africa 2009 were katich (43 bat / 36 ball) and north (debuted, after the series it was 40 bat / 49 bowl).
clearly the examples above we had a pretty good pace attack to balance out the spin weakness. a cursory look at other teams is the same. 'where are they now's' like paul harris toured india with south africa when they drew their series with steyn and ntini running around.
ashley giles, england in south africa 2005. pat symcox, a couple of series.
then of course, west indies didn't even bother half the time or used viv richards. the pitches probably did offer a bit more than nowadays.
what you might see, would be a procession of these types. they'd lose their form in one of their disciplines and could be unpickable as batter / bowler alone.
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Swepson spins it a lot more than those guys. He would have been more effective than playing Starc, by some margin imo.
I just do not see the point of picking him in squad for the series and never being serious about playing him.
He looked very dangerous in the Shield games. Should have struck whilst the iron was hot.
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100% this
Jonah Serong debuted at Casey South Melbourne as one to watch, 16 year old in 2016/17. Dawdling away struggling for wickets in the second XI in 20/21 now. Why is that? I’d hazard a guess that what you’ve touched on is a big part of it, furthermore, an aggressive and attacking spinner going at 4.5 an over will be removed quicker than a defensive spinner going at 3 an over keeping there team in the game.
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A mate of mine came through as a young spinner about 10-15 years back - agrees this is 100% the issue. The young guys either don’t get bowled because they get carted while they are honing their craft...or when they do, the captain has no idea how to set up for them and they end up...getting carted. He stuck at it for a good few years and had the most success in his late 20s/early 30s but it was tough as hell for years and ended up bouncing around a few clubs and going in and out of teams - most would have just packed it in.
Yes, I would have said that our spin prospects are better now than they have been for most of my lifetime.
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Not sure it is the Captains field placements. You would think premier 2nds captains would be decent. Plenty of good kids get stuck behind others that are rated higher and that's it. Being able to bowl economically is valid, which is hard for leggies (Serong an off spinner I think?). Maybe a change of clubs is required where spinning stocks are less to get a chance. Clarke (close to the same age) left Fitzroy Doncaster maybe for opportunities. J Boyce toils away at Prahran in 2nds behind others maybe needs to look elsewhere. (Both state kids too).
Swepson has taken 23 at 21 wickets in 3 shield matches this season on those Adelaide grounds that have been absolute run fest roads. Lyon in comparison took 9 at 44 on the same grounds...
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Australian bounce can rob a spinner of LBW's. An awful lot of visiting offies who rely on LBW wind up getting belted because they can't rely on tricking a bat with changes of pace and clever variation.
Not recently, mind.
The solution is simple. get rid of the drop in wickets. They make for boring 4th and fifth days of tests.
Heisenberg_
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It’s time to give Schwepson a go in SA, Lyon is finished, looked ordinary before this summer and been nearly as bad as Starc
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Vics coming in with their needle d!*ks into a gun fight. The greatest ever spinner, Warne, against India, averages 47.19 but Lyons got to go.
Facts just get in the way.
PS: Lyon goes at 34.59.
Bump this thread.
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Facts just get in the way.
PS: Lyon goes at 34.59.
Bump this thread.
Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
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I don't think so. I think he was down certainly, but Lyon - ahead of all of the 'great' spinners of the last decade or so - thrived on being underestimated. He'd bowl, they'd * up in attack, and he'd get catches in the outfield. When he was at his best, they'd still underestimate him but he'd also pick up a few genuine 'that's a bloody good ball' off spinner wickets as well. The only thing he really lacks is a genuine LBW threat; even his Geoff ball bounces like a mother*er.
This series, he was down, Australia is an off spinner's graveyard, India play spin better than anyone else on the planet, and they weren't underestimating him and thus giving him those easy wickets. He still needs to improve, but, I don't think this is the end of him.
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And anyone who's said that captains and their setting of poor or run saving fields in development comps is absolutely spot on. Australians do not know how to use spinners; we use them to attack, and if they don't get a wicket inside the first 2 overs as an attacking bowler they're off out of fear they're going to get belted.
Spinners are always an attacking option, but their greatest virtue is the degree to which you can control a game using their bowling far, far more than you can to a quick. You can force bats to constantly fight within themselves to avoid the obvious traps and yet still fall for them. You can bowl maidens quickly. You can manipulate a field to go for 2-3 an over when your opponent needs 5-6, and then when they try to hit out they're doing it when the bowler's already warm.
We don't think of spin more than one dimensionally here.
Spinners are always an attacking option, but their greatest virtue is the degree to which you can control a game using their bowling far, far more than you can to a quick. You can force bats to constantly fight within themselves to avoid the obvious traps and yet still fall for them. You can bowl maidens quickly. You can manipulate a field to go for 2-3 an over when your opponent needs 5-6, and then when they try to hit out they're doing it when the bowler's already warm.
We don't think of spin more than one dimensionally here.
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agree swepson is the future its not he went 1/148 month ago in a warm up game? india eat spinners for dinner, SA will be a great test..
fun fact the number 1 test team in the world hardly plays a spinner, an when it does he doesn't spin it haha
Don’t think you can blame it on India being good against spin, he bowled much better in their decks a couple of years ago.
Realistically, take out NZ last summer (which was fish in a barrel for spinners) and he hasn’t been great for a while now.
Cleavy
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clearly Katich was underbowled
Funny you should mention that:
151.6 Lovely loopy slider from Katich who picks his second wicket. It looped up outside off, good rip on the ball and Steyn drove inside the line and edged it to slip. Questions will be asked why Ponting didn't bring Kato on earlier. Was the bowler reluctant or the captain? Press conference should be interesting later on. 637/9
Some Idiot
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Warne's always suggested that spinners need to be able to do both, he was known to bowl both long economical spells as well as aggressive ones.
Lyon's economy has been a big part of his success as well
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