The beginning of the end of Australia as a cricketing superpower.

[RightWingRoo]

Been saying it since the 2nd Ashes test. Midway through that I knew we were cooked. I was mocked mercilessly. This is vindication.

Batting looks very weak without Warner. He is a huge loss.

Gutted.

We still looked vulnerable at times at Edgbaston and Lords. But found enough to get over the line in tight games.
But there enough there that I was still worried despite being 2-0 up. Bazball had us rattled, we looked a bit shellshocked with how hard they were coming at us. Rain was our saviour in the end

I'm definitely not one of those who was celebrating Warner retiring. Knew he'd be hard to replace, but OK with him giving it away so he and Uzzie wouldn't be finishing up at the same time.
Going to miss his ability to take the game away from opposing sides, right from the start. Even in his last innings made a potentially tricky chase look easy, by taking the game on.

 

[eltrain]

This might be the wake up call a lot of blokes needed tbh. We’ll come back stronger and belt NZ.

 

[Zach Package]

The Manchester rain helped a lot with that too haha.
But agree that he helped Uzzie take the shine off the new ball, and he did enough to justify selection without being brilliant. One thing I'm sure of is that none of Bancroft, Renshaw or Harris would've been any better.

The quicks were generally good this summer, but did have periods of time where they lost the plot. Not sure whether rotation would've helped us here.

Hopefully ignites a fire for the NZ series, because that will be tricky. Certainly can't turn up over there and just expect to win.

They were good but they looked physically and emotionally spent for the majority of this summer, and understandably so, so it was a perfect time to blood someone like Morris or play Boland in Melbourne as a track specialist.

The batting is brittle as hell but we all knew that and that’s the decision you live with when you bat Marsh at 6 and end up with cavalier strokemakers at 5,6,7 and 8.

They got exactly what they deserved for making very poor decisions at basically every turn this summer.

 

[RightWingRoo]

For a country that loves to knock other teams for their tactics it wouldn’t do Australia any harm to have a look at its own.

Mitchell Marsh and Travis Head seem completely incapable at the moment of playing with any flexibility.
I get that both of them have had some success playing aggressively but Head has literally regressed, statistically, since he adopted this attacking approach beginning with that knock at the Gabba last summer. Yes when it’s worked it’s been really good but it’s been very very lean in between.
Marsh has been more reliable but he looks like he’s got no way of reining himself in.

Carey has actually played some knocks that were better than I thought he was capable of - in this test match for starters. I’m not sure how flexible he is either though. These guys don’t seem to have a lot of willingness to adapt their games at the moment and concede 10-15 overs to the opposition.

First off, well done to your boys!
They thoroughly deserved to win and in doing so exposed the cracks in Australian cricket.

It was no coincidence that those were willing to slow the game down and play each ball on it's merits looked the best. Da Silva, Hodge and Sinclair in your first innings and the Uzzie and Smith for us. It certainly feels like Head, Carey and Marsh don't have any other gears and are hit out or get out. Carey in the first innings and Starc in the second seemed set on going the tonk and got themselves out.

 

[RightWingRoo]

Marsh had a hot streak but i think we have to accept he aint getting any better than current version there is a reason his first class average is 34 and his test average 30, we just need to hope he can string few more scores together next year or so while we search for genuine test batsmen.

Had hoped he'd found something extra, but think you're right.
He doesn't have gears in his game and he plays a high risk style that will always be feast or famine.
The lack of those genuine test batsman coming through, is what spurred me to make this thread. It's worrying

 

[RightWingRoo]

This might be the wake up call a lot of blokes needed tbh. We’ll come back stronger and belt NZ.

Hope you're right!
But not confident, need to be more discerning when we got hard and when we need to reign it in.

 

[PhatBoy]

First off, well done to your boys!
They thoroughly deserved to win and in doing so exposed the cracks in Australian cricket.

It was no coincidence that those were willing to slow the game down and play each ball on it's merits looked the best. Da Silva, Hodge and Sinclair in your first innings and the Uzzie and Smith for us. It certainly feels like Head, Carey and Marsh don't have any other gears and are hit out or get out. Carey in the first innings and Starc in the second seemed set on going the tonk and got themselves out.

Thanks heaps mate.

Absolutely and yeah there will be some games - the Brisbane game LAST summer where that tactic is fair enough because you are simply going to get out sooner or later anyway.

But Marsh especially looks absolutely hell bent on hitting every ball as hard as he can no matter the situation and he doesn’t have to.

Australia as far as I’m aware haven’t made that a team policy like England have so it seems silly to not say to them ‘guys have some common sense from time to time.’

 

[RightWingRoo]

They were good but they looked physically and emotionally spent for the majority of this summer, and understandably so, so it was a perfect time to blood someone like Morris or play Boland in Melbourne as a track specialist.

The batting is brittle as hell but we all knew that and that’s the decision you live with when you bat Marsh at 6 and end up with cavalier strokemakers at 5,6,7 and 8.

They got exactly what they deserved for making very poor decisions at basically every turn this summer.

They've had a long summer with the world cup leading in. Our poor start to the world cup, reduced opportunities to rest them during the tournament. Hopefully getting a month's rest leading in to NZ will help them. Maybe should've given Boland a game in Melbourne or Sydney in hindsight.

We could make 600 off 100 overs with the current line up or be bundled out for 80. It seems as though Bazball did a number on us mentally and since then have been too keen to get on with it at times and lost the ability to knuckle down. Took until this test to really bite us
The big problem is lack of obvious test quality prospects coming through

 

[Pure_Ownage]

For a country that loves to knock other teams for their tactics it wouldn’t do Australia any harm to have a look at its own.

Mitchell Marsh and Travis Head seem completely incapable at the moment of playing with any flexibility.
I get that both of them have had some success playing aggressively but Head has literally regressed, statistically, since he adopted this attacking approach beginning with that knock at the Gabba last summer. Yes when it’s worked it’s been really good but it’s been very very lean in between.
Marsh has been more reliable but he looks like he’s got no way of reining himself in.

Carey has actually played some knocks that were better than I thought he was capable of - in this test match for starters. I’m not sure how flexible he is either though. These guys don’t seem to have a lot of willingness to adapt their games at the moment and concede 10-15 overs to the opposition.

Its because both marsh and head are aware they have significant technical flaws which they try to get around by attacking first to protect their weaknesses. It works a lot of the time but when it doesnt they have no plan B.

Carey at least has a reasonable technique so he has different options for how he can play.

 

[DaRick]

For a country that loves to knock other teams for their tactics it wouldn’t do Australia any harm to have a look at its own.

Mitchell Marsh and Travis Head seem completely incapable at the moment of playing with any flexibility.
I get that both of them have had some success playing aggressively but Head has literally regressed, statistically, since he adopted this attacking approach beginning with that knock at the Gabba last summer. Yes when it’s worked it’s been really good but it’s been very very lean in between.
Marsh has been more reliable but he looks like he’s got no way of reining himself in.

Carey has actually played some knocks that were better than I thought he was capable of - in this test match for starters. I’m not sure how flexible he is either though. These guys don’t seem to have a lot of willingness to adapt their games at the moment and concede 10-15 overs to the opposition.

The problem is that Head looks unconvincing when he grinds. He'll hang around for a while, and then lose concentration and get out (and this match he never got the chance to do that anyway).

Marsh's technique has improved since his last stint 4 years ago, but again he still isn't reliable defensively.

It wouldn't be so bad if Marnus/Smith weren't in patchy form.

 

[Santana]

Marsh had a hot streak but i think we have to accept he aint getting any better than current version there is a reason his first class average is 34 and his test average 30, we just need to hope he can string few more scores together next year or so while we search for genuine test batsmen.

Yep, not that I am upset whenever a player performs but Marsh's recent form has put the selectors in a little bit of a bind in what to do with Green and the batting order.

 

[PhatBoy]

The problem is that Head looks unconvincing when he grinds. He'll hang around for a while, and then lose concentration and get out (and this match he never got the chance to do that anyway).

Marsh's technique has improved since his last stint 4 years ago, but again he still isn't reliable defensively.

It wouldn't be so bad if Marnus/Smith weren't in patchy form.

That’s fair

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Both Cummins and McDonald have had good moments. Our planning in the WC final was spot on, everything went perfectly to plan.
But we show a real vulnerability when the opposition attacks us, seem to get rattled very quickly. Also seem to struggle with a plan B, if things go awry.

Not sure if we have anyone who'd be a huge tactical improvement as captain. Smith might be, but he's got enough on his plate keeping his head above water as a test quality batsman these days.
Cummins is a very good leader of men, but tactically flawed and seems to struggle to think on his feet. Have no issue with McDonald at this stage, but not 100% convinced on him either.

The current group is talented, but aging and vulnerable. The biggest problem is the lack of depth and were we'll be in 2-3 years time. The production line has ground to a halt and lack of options in shield cricket, is probably to the worst it's ever been.

Yeah i agree with that-i think we got lucky in the world cup as we never got thrown off course in the finals and needed a plan B. You saw on day 1 when the windies bats built that 6th wicket partnership we had no plan B. Things like declaring last night which was moronic. And today smith was batting very well all it needed was one or two guys to graft with him and we are home. But marsh and starc in particular have no plan B.

I agree cummins is an outstanding bowler and human being but he doesnt have a tactical brain. Ronnie strikes me as similar one of the best guys you will meet in cricket but not great tactically. I think hes too close to the players and not prepared to overrule them on tactics which is a problem. I agree aside from smith we havent got a lot of tactically better coaching options so we urgently need to get some tactically smart assistant coaches and advisors in the team.

 

[RightWingRoo]

Thanks heaps mate.

Absolutely and yeah there will be some games - the Brisbane game LAST summer where that tactic is fair enough because you are simply going to get out sooner or later anyway.

But Marsh especially looks absolutely hell bent on hitting every ball as hard as he can no matter the situation and he doesn’t have to.

Australia as far as I’m aware haven’t made that a team policy like England have so it seems silly to not say to them ‘guys have some common sense from time to time.’

No worries!
Enjoy it, there's enough raw talent there to get the Windies back into the top 5 sides. Especially if you add Holder and Mayers back to the set up. Just need to keep them together and hold off the influence of the T20 leagues.

Exactly this wasn’t a raging green seamer like last year was. It wasn't a road and had something in it for the bowlers. But there were runs to be had if you could knuckle down and play yourself in.

Exactly seemed like he was looking for the boundary every ball today and along with Starc and Lyon got himself out with unnecessary shots.

100% had a few cases where runs were flowing easily enough and didn't need to blindly go after every ball.

 

[Santana]

Yeah i agree with that-i think we got lucky in the world cup as we never got thrown off course in the finals and needed a plan B.

We got lucky because we planned and executed to a tee? Am I reading that right?

Both Cummins and McDonald have had good moments. Our planning in the WC final was spot on, everything went perfectly to plan.
But we show a real vulnerability when the opposition attacks us, seem to get rattled very quickly. Also seem to struggle with a plan B, if things go awry.

Not sure if we have anyone who'd be a huge tactical improvement as captain. Smith might be, but he's got enough on his plate keeping his head above water as a test quality batsman these days.
Cummins is a very good leader of men, but tactically flawed and seems to struggle to think on his feet. Have no issue with McDonald at this stage, but not 100% convinced on him either.

The current group is talented, but aging and vulnerable. The biggest problem is the lack of depth and were we'll be in 2-3 years time. The production line has ground to a halt and lack of options in shield cricket, is probably to the worst it's ever been.

Don't kid yourselves, it doesn't matter who the captain is, he will get sh&t on no matter what. Wins too much, loses too much, too aggressive, too passive, too woke, too nice, too much of a DH. Can't remember the last captain who didn't have tons of people riding him. Pretty thankless gig

 

[RightWingRoo]

Its because both marsh and head are aware they have significant technical flaws which they try to get around by attacking first to protect their weaknesses. It works a lot of the time but when it doesnt they have no plan B.

Carey at least has a reasonable technique so he has different options for how he can play.

Carey looked excellent on Friday but got carried away, and felt like he needed to go after everything. He had the Windies on the back foot and could've been more discerning in what he went after. Was an unnecessary shot he got out to

Head and Marsh look great when they're going, and have pulled us out of dire situations. But will always have limitations around their consistency, with the way they play. The lack of options behind them, mean both are safe for a while

 

[The Sultan]

Warner kicking back and smoking a Cuban somewhere, his retirement has uncorked a genie and the only reason we still hold the Ashes is because he decided to go on another year.

IIRC as usual he didn’t fire a shot and average about 20

 

[coach beard]

OP is being a tad knee-jerk, I think Australia might be coming back to the pack a bit and the next tier of countries behind the 'big 3', like Pakistan and the West Indies, look like they might be starting to improve again. Probably a good thing for the game to be honest. India, England and Australia have too much power and that's not great for competition

 

[Pure_Ownage]

We got lucky because we planned and executed to a tee? Am I reading that right?


Don't kid yourselves, it doesn't matter who the captain is, he will get sh&t on no matter what. Wins too much, loses too much, too aggressive, too passive, too woke, too nice, too much of a DH. Can't remember the last captain who didn't have tons of people riding him. Pretty thankless gig

I am saying our tactics are ok when we can set up in advance in a way that allows us to play aggressively and to our strengths. But good sides have a plan B and C and ability to change to them on the fly. Whereas its clear when a team throws us off our game we either have no plan B at all, or the players dont have the capacity to execute it.

 

[RightWingRoo]

Yeah i agree with that-i think we got lucky in the world cup as we never got thrown off course in the finals and needed a plan B. You saw on day 1 when the windies bats built that 6th wicket partnership we had no plan B. Things like declaring last night which was moronic. And today smith was batting very well all it needed was one or two guys to graft with him and we are home. But marsh and starc in particular have no plan B.

I agree cummins is an outstanding bowler and human being but he doesnt have a tactical brain. Ronnie strikes me as similar one of the best guys you will meet in cricket but not great tactically. I think hes too close to the players and not prepared to overrule them on tactics which is a problem. I agree aside from smith we havent got a lot of tactically better coaching options so we urgently need to get some tactically smart assistant coaches and advisors in the team.

You're right there, our tactics can work. But if they get snookered, we struggle to adapt our game and need to rely on individual brilliance. We really looked rattled and without an answer at times during the Ashes.

Cummins is a brilliant bowler, up there with McGrath and Steyn and the best quicks I've seen.
I still think he's our best captaincy option at the moment, but he has his flaws. A tactical assistant alongside him and McDonald would be a good get.
Would be hard convincing someone like Punter to do it and Chappelli is 80, maybe someone like Mark Taylor could be an option.

 

[RightWingRoo]

OP is being a tad knee-jerk, I think Australia might be coming back to the pack a bit and the next tier of countries behind the 'big 3', like Pakistan and the West Indies, look like they might be starting to improve again. Probably a good thing for the game to be honest. India, England and Australia have too much power and that's not great for competition

It probably is and I may be proven wrong. But given this is unquestionably our best side, there's no where to hide.
The lack of talent coming through is a big concern. How we replace aging players, especially the batsman in the coming years, looks fraught.

There's plenty of raw talent in the Pakistan and West Indies sides we saw this year. It becomes a matter of keeping these groups together and being able to develop them to their full potential.
By 2026 we could easily be out of the top 5 test sides.

 

[RightWingRoo]

I am saying our tactics are ok when we can set up in advance in a way that allows us to play aggressively and to our strengths. But good sides have a plan B and C and ability to change to them on the fly. Whereas its clear when a team throws us off our game we either have no plan B at all, or the players dont have the capacity to execute it.

Just like North under Brad Scott!

 

[DaRick]

Yeah i agree with that-i think we got lucky in the world cup as we never got thrown off course in the finals and needed a plan B. You saw on day 1 when the windies bats built that 6th wicket partnership we had no plan B. Things like declaring last night which was moronic. And today smith was batting very well all it needed was one or two guys to graft with him and we are home. But marsh and starc in particular have no plan B.

I agree cummins is an outstanding bowler and human being but he doesnt have a tactical brain. Ronnie strikes me as similar one of the best guys you will meet in cricket but not great tactically. I think hes too close to the players and not prepared to overrule them on tactics which is a problem. I agree aside from smith we havent got a lot of tactically better coaching options so we urgently need to get some tactically smart assistant coaches and advisors in the team.

Not really; they grabbed a wicket before stumps.

Some dumb batting and Shamar bowling one of the best spells I've seen decided this game.

 

[Zach Package]

IIRC as usual he didn’t fire a shot and average about 20

Take this too 7 to England last year and we get absolutely ****ing smoked and we’d bloody deserve it because the impact of Warner not being there is 4 fold.

Smith going up top is a mistake, he needs to slide up and not down. Warner was also holding down first slip pretty well and putting Usman in there hasnt cost us too badly so far but the spacing is not the same and I suspect it will bite us in NZ. Then you’ve got the all rounder wars which are tangential but they both were in the frame to go up to the top of the order at some point because we didn’t think a proper opener would be a big loss, which we then reinforced by not picking Bancroft who had the runs on the board.

Warner not being there has seriously upset the apple cart and I don’t thing anyone could argue otherwise with a straight face. Him and Uz were very right to think they needed to stagger their retirements.

 

[Trojan90]

Anything can happen. Could have said this 5 years ago. How would our current team have looked from back then.

Smith - retired or too old, lost his eye.
Khawaja - already done
Marnus - who?
Green - nothing more than a prospect
Head - maybe if he can sort out his technical flaws
Marsh - lol
Carey - tick
Starc - dropped by now
Cummins - tick
Lyon - probably retired or dropped
Hazlewood - probably retired