Autopsy Late fight back not enough as dogs Bow out of finals

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Mattdougie

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Jun 29, 2013
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Yesterday was more proof that while Caleb will play well and rack up stats in the backline he is a liability there against good coaching and better teams.

We know Bev won’t change his mind but as long as Daniel plays back we are not improving as a team.
 

Chicago1

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Strange. I feel pretty good today. I guess with us out of the Finals and the Cubs making a quick exit out of the Playoffs, that's two things not to have to worry about during this lockdown. I also don't have the pressure of deciding what to have as a Lucky Meal every week. My cold pizza was quite delicious for brunch today.

I have been of two minds regarding this season being played, but overall I enjoyed watching more footy in concentrated time slots. However, there will always be an * in my mind about sports championships during this pandemic. I guess that's just the traditionalist in me. Hell, I just explained to a fellow American on another website the story of us changing our name when he asked what a St Kilda was. It brought back memories of my uneasiness with our name change, something I have long disregarded. The footy going ahead has been great. God knows we have needed a distraction from the boredom of isolation. I just pray that my worst nightmare doesn't come true and a certain team wins the Premiership. That would make 2020, conclusively, the worst year of my life. Well, maybe not so, depending on what happens a month from now. Things could become worse. :eek:

I'm looking forward to next year and to see what it brings us. Hopefully it will be another Premiership which gives me something more to live for.
 

Charlie Bucket

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it’s like people who try to compare a team that is poor at centre clearance even with an adequate ruck to a team that is good at clearances with an average ruck.

The tigers are poor at clearances because their players aren’t great at it even with a handy ruckman. Our mids are elite at clearances but have no ruck help at all most weeks.
The utter lack of footy knowledge by a couple in here that belittle anyone that differs to them is laughable.

oh and then accusing EVERYONE ELSE that they change the goal posts constantly without having a clue they flip flop all over the joint and then can’t admit it.

Our list after the tenth player is very average and below 20 is garbage
😂 You need to get a refund on that ignore button MD.
 

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CarnTheScray

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it’s like people who try to compare a team that is poor at centre clearance even with an adequate ruck to a team that is good at clearances with an average ruck.

The tigers are poor at clearances because their players aren’t great at it even with a handy ruckman. Our mids are elite at clearances but have no ruck help at all most weeks.
The utter lack of footy knowledge by a couple in here that belittle anyone that differs to them is laughable.

oh and then accusing EVERYONE ELSE that they change the goal posts constantly without having a clue they flip flop all over the joint and then can’t admit it.

Our list after the tenth player is very average and below 20 is garbage
I've said time and time again that we have a group of great players that carry us week in week out. This trade and draft is a period to change that.

Yesterday was more proof that while Caleb will play well and rack up stats in the backline he is a liability there against good coaching and better teams.

We know Bev won’t change his mind but as long as Daniel plays back we are not improving as a team.
He's only exposed down there because we play 2-3 idiots down there that don't help him out at all. If we move on the incompetent players with ones that can play, he will be even better. It's not his fault his teammates don't communicate and let him get in a 1-on-1 with Max King.
 

Mattdougie

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I've said time and time again that we have a group of great players that carry us week in week out. This trade and draft is a period to change that.


He's only exposed down there because we play 2-3 idiots down there that don't help him out at all. If we move on the incompetent players with ones that can play, he will be even better. It's not his fault his teammates don't communicate and let him get in a 1-on-1 with Max King.

He got exposed one on one by Geary who hasn’t touched the footy since the last time he played us.

They all pushed forward and Geary moved back and back to isolate Caleb until Bev worked it out and moved him. That’s not his teammates that’s oppo coaching that is so obvious I’m amazed teams dont do it weekly.
 

Charlie Bucket

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it’s like people who try to compare a team that is poor at centre clearance even with an adequate ruck to a team that is good at clearances with an average ruck.

The tigers are poor at clearances because their players aren’t great at it even with a handy ruckman. Our mids are elite at clearances but have no ruck help at all most weeks.
The utter lack of footy knowledge by a couple in here that belittle anyone that differs to them is laughable.

oh and then accusing EVERYONE ELSE that they change the goal posts constantly without having a clue they flip flop all over the joint and then can’t admit it.

Our list after the tenth player is very average and below 20 is garbage
You’ve just gone in to detail why I’m right about Richmond.
Just when I thought you couldn’t be any more moronic.
 

LondonBulldog

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I love reading the fugazi that Daniel gets found out by good coaches. It’s been 2 years of him in that role and he’s been “found out” sweet fu** all in that time.

Don’t be so lazy LB.
It clearly wasn’t the reason we lost yet
It just highlighted what a lot of us knew, you cannot afford a defender that can be that exposed in 1 on 1, especially in finals against better sides. On a positive hopefully he plays midfield / half forward more often as his class disposal is needed. Not sure what Lazy has to do with it, it’s been my view all year as you know
 

Charlie Bucket

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It clearly wasn’t the reason we lost yet
It just highlighted what a lot of us knew, you cannot afford a defender that can be that exposed in 1 on 1, especially in finals against better sides. On a positive hopefully he plays midfield / half forward more often as his class disposal is needed. Not sure what Lazy has to do with it, it’s been my view all year as you know
It’s lazy because you, like others, run with it when it’s a non issue.

I know why you do it, because you’ve backed him to fail in the backline and it’s a call that’s ended badly for you and quiet a few. It’s still terribly lazy by you.
 

bullish23

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24 hours on, there is a bit of ‘things aren’t as bad as they seem, not as good as they seem’.

Thinking of the 2nd quarter, we were up by a goal, and really pressing early. Somehow in about 3 different passages, the Saints managed to escape deep in their back line. Some of it by luck, some of it due to tackles not quite sticking, some of it liberal interpretations of HTB. I really felt at that time we were on top, but just couldn’t get it out to that 2 goal lead. In 2 seasons can we expect Hannebury, Ryder and Carlisle to be around? We on the other hand would lose nobody.

Which brings me to age demographics, there just has to be more self-improvement demanded over summer across the list. That should be the bare minimum. As to what we bring in, I’ve been on the record a ruck is needed for months now. But some perspective. Richmond in 2013 finished 5th, 2014 8th, 2015 5th and 13th in 2016. I feel we are in a similar position. Their disastrous 2016 somehow the senior coach survived, the assistants were all dismissed, and that was the real turning point. Port’s last 4 seasons were 10th, 7th, 10th, 10th and this year top. Again we are tracking similarly. Not time to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but adjustments required no doubt.
 

BIG_BONTS

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I'm too lazy to do the comparison between all teams between 2015-now, but a few easy ones...

The Swans who LOST the 2016 GF are now bottom 4.

GWS who finished 3rd or 4th and were runner up last year didn't make the dam 8!

Hawks are bottom 4.

Westcoast got rolled by a point.

In 2021 I expect:

Timmy to put on 5kg and get about 20% better
Bruce to drop 5kg and get 30% better
Naughton to get about 10% better
JUH to come in and kick 20 goals :p

That's a top 4 side done and dusted.
 

lachy

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It’s lazy because you, like others, run with it when it’s a non issue.

I know why you do it, because you’ve backed him to fail in the backline and it’s a call that’s ended badly for you and quiet a few. It’s still terribly lazy by you.
Lol CB you really do like the hyperbole.

I have not backed him in to fail in the backline just pointed out he would not be as effective against a well structured defensive system in a big game but up higher he only needs half the possessions to be twice a valuable.

The sample size is one game and everything in that one game would support my opinion, however I am not arrogant enough to say this proves or validates my opinion, merely does not prove it wrong.

To say it has ended badly for those who went further and in your words, not theirs, backed him in to fail in the backline is a nonsense.

This game is a team game and results in big games ie finals is the only thing to judge professional sport so I would not be saying anything has ended badly for those with a different opinion to yours after this game, well interesting

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Charlie Bucket

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Lol CB you really do like the hyperbole.

I have not backed him in to fail in the backline just pointed out he would not be as effective against a well structured defensive system in a big game but up higher he only needs half the possessions to be twice a valuable.

The sample size is one game and everything in that one game would support my opinion, however I am not arrogant enough to say this proves or validates my opinion, merely does not prove it wrong.

To say it has ended badly for those who went further and in your words, not theirs, backed him in to fail in the backline is a nonsense.

This game is a team game and results in big games ie finals is the only thing to judge professional sport so I would not be saying anything has ended badly for those with a different opinion to yours after this game, well interesting

On SM-G975F using BigFooty.com mobile app
This posts obviously wasn’t directed at you Lach if you didn’t back him to fail in the backline. Don’t stress about it.

As for yesterday’s game backing your opinion he’s better utilised you fwd, surely you aren’t running with one qtr of football where we had 80+ % of the footy in the fwd half and had multiple defenders role up unattended?

You’re obviously pretty cluey Lach, don’t get sucked in to doing that.
 

Charlie Bucket

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Lol CB you really do like the hyperbole.

I have not backed him in to fail in the backline just pointed out he would not be as effective against a well structured defensive system in a big game but up higher he only needs half the possessions to be twice a valuable.

The sample size is one game and everything in that one game would support my opinion, however I am not arrogant enough to say this proves or validates my opinion, merely does not prove it wrong.

To say it has ended badly for those who went further and in your words, not theirs, backed him in to fail in the backline is a nonsense.

This game is a team game and results in big games ie finals is the only thing to judge professional sport so I would not be saying anything has ended badly for those with a different opinion to yours after this game, well interesting

On SM-G975F using BigFooty.com mobile app
We’ve also played against far better defensively structured teams than St Kilda, on multiple occasions and have negated any potential culling of Daniels influence. Why would you use them as an example?

Clubs don’t tag defenders, because it’s difficult to do.
Saints tried yesterday but had almost no luck besides when Geary got out the back early in the game. But even then it wasn’t the tag job, if Gearys tagging Caleb, Caleb doesn’t follow Geary deep inside 50. Calebs role is to peel off to free himself up. He wasn’t taking Geary as an opponent.
It’s pretty clear. Taggers don’t drag their opponents deep.
 

lachy

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This posts obviously wasn’t directed at you Lach if you didn’t back him to fail in the backline. Don’t stress about it.

As for yesterday’s game backing your opinion he’s better utilised you fwd, surely you aren’t running with one qtr of football where we had 80+ % of the footy in the fwd half and had multiple defenders role up unattended?

You’re obviously pretty cluey Lach, don’t get sucked in to doing that.
Liked him on the wing, where he pushed to defensive side, gave him plenty of space and was one of the reasons for our last quarter dominance.

I really only don't like him deep back as a smart opponent will tag him when we have it or in dispute but will expose him when they have it and he can be boxed in.

Where he plays is the least of our issues, but he could be the answer to at least one if not two of the key issues we have.

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grassman75

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Coaching poor today. Naughton should have gone back when we were getting smashed. Bruce should have gone into ruck and English forward. Bruce shouldn’t be part of our future plans. Nor should Gardiner. Not sure about Richards’ role- not sure he or Bevo do either. Caleb much better upfield. I know Roarke doesn’t have many fans here but I think he is improving and certainly not amongst our worst. I have lost faith in Bevo.
When Cordy went down I thought we were gonna get smashed with Gardner as one of our key defenders...when he tripped over his own feet chasing someone into an open goal i'd seen enough.
 

lachy

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We’ve also played against far better defensively structured teams than St Kilda, on multiple occasions and have negated any potential culling of Daniels influence. Why would you use them as an example?

Clubs don’t tag defenders, because it’s difficult to do.
Saints tried yesterday but had almost no luck besides when Geary got out the back early in the game. But even then it wasn’t the tag job, if Gearys tagging Caleb, Caleb doesn’t follow Geary deep inside 50. Calebs role is to peel off to free himself up. He wasn’t taking Geary as an opponent.
It’s pretty clear. Taggers don’t drag their opponents deep.
Yesterday was not the first time Calebs been shut out by a defensive forward tagger. They only do it in two of the 3 phases. Only need to. They more want to stop the damage he can cause with the ball moreso than expose him, but it can do both.

Easy solution push him higher up the ground.

Given the lack.of cleanness of disposal from our stoppages would also like to see how he goes as part of the midfield rotation as despite his size is quite strong over the ball

On SM-G975F using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

Mattdougie

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Liked him on the wing, where he pushed to defensive side, gave him plenty of space and was one of the reasons for our last quarter dominance.

I really only don't like him deep back as a smart opponent will tag him when we have it or in dispute but will expose him when they have it and he can be boxed in.

Where he plays is the least of our issues, but he could be the answer to at least one if not two of the key issues we have.

On SM-G975F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Pretty much everything we suspected may happen with Caleb did yesterday and it hurt us badly.

Not only was he comprehensively beaten early but seeing we revolve our movement game out of the backline through him we lost that also.

It’s not Calebs fault he is 5 foot nothing but it’s also something we cannot change. Bev won’t change things as he simply doesn’t do that but 2 years of Caleb back and getting bulk possession has not Improved the TEAM at all and that is a fairly big sample size as evidence.

Again yesterday our inside 50s were disgraceful and why on gods green earth we wouldn’t be using Caleb to improve that is baffling to me. If we hit targets yesterday we win that game and win it easy
 
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grassman75

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I also don’t mean to flog a dead horse and single out a whipping boy.

I also have given credit to Ryan Gardner for his improvement during the season and being reasonably solid during the latter part of the year.

But inasmuch as you can single out Hunter and Smith’s missed shots as crucial (and they were), Gardner’s needless turnover late in the 2nd quarter that led to a St Kilda goal was also very crucial.
Was that the appalling "pass" into our leading forward?
 

marcus1232

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I tend to try to give 24 hours before posting but just a few observations from my end if I may.

I think there maybe a disconnect between your mids and KPF because there was a distinct lack of trust watching Naughton in that last 1/4. All I was thinking was he would murder our key backs if you get in fast to him.

You guys desperately need a quality forward pocket as much as I like Wallace he plays more a Membrey roll as in he is a lead up player not an opportunist.

English will be fine remember Gawn was an absolute liability for his first 5 or so seasons. The recruit of the season for us has been paddy Ryder and we were ridiculed for it at the time because it would be counter productive for Roma. I would be looking hard at a veteran who can help out in the short term.

I think people get a bit seduced by Bruce’s highlight package he is that 1 in 10 game player who makes you think there is something there to work with long term.

For what it’s worth I think your list just needs some minor adjustments and probably a fine tuning of strategy and you are a premiership threat you have so much talent to not be.

All the best for the off season and congrats on the best junior in the country :)
 

Charlie Bucket

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Yesterday was not the first time Calebs been shut out by a defensive forward tagger. They only do it in two of the 3 phases. Only need to. They more want to stop the damage he can cause with the ball moreso than expose him, but it can do both.

Easy solution push him higher up the ground.

Given the lack.of cleanness of disposal from our stoppages would also like to see how he goes as part of the midfield rotation as despite his size is quite strong over the ball

On SM-G975F using BigFooty.com mobile app
Caleb shut out of yesterday’s game?... Come on Lach, don’t be silly.

I don’t disagree and have said many times that Caleb can play multiple positions and play them pretty well. I don’t believe though that we’ve seen that happen in the last 2 years and what we saw prior didn’t exactly indicate he’s the answer to our fwd half woes.

As you say, teams will only try to cull his influence with ball in hand either by closing him up or applying a hard tag. We saw Freo last week and Saints yesterday try to do that but both failed miserably in my opinion as he was good last week. Outstanding yesterday.
 

Boyd oh Boyd

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I tend to try to give 24 hours before posting but just a few observations from my end if I may.

I think there maybe a disconnect between your mids and KPF because there was a distinct lack of trust watching Naughton in that last 1/4. All I was thinking was he would murder our key backs if you get in fast to him.

You guys desperately need a quality forward pocket as much as I like Wallace he plays more a Membrey roll as in he is a lead up player not an opportunist.

English will be fine remember Gawn was an absolute liability for his first 5 or so seasons. The recruit of the season for us has been paddy Ryder and we were ridiculed for it at the time because it would be counter productive for Roma. I would be looking hard at a veteran who can help out in the short term.

I think people get a bit seduced by Bruce’s highlight package he is that 1 in 10 game player who makes you think there is something there to work with long term.

For what it’s worth I think your list just needs some minor adjustments and probably a fine tuning of strategy and you are a premiership threat you have so much talent to not be.

All the best for the off season and congrats on the best junior in the country :)
This is the biggest thing to me. Talk about ruck and key defenders and even who we have up forward, but it's our midfield not using Naughton that's killing us. One of the best contested marks in the league and we kick it to him 2 or 3 times a game. Our mids haven't had a target like this since they were juniors and act like it's still Boyd or Redpath up there. Once we start using Naughton like the top sides use their best forward we'll be fine, and the rest is just filling in holes.
 

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