Preview Round 16, 2023: West Coast v St.Kilda - Optus Stadium, Sunday 2nd July, 4:40PM AEST *WILKIE 100TH*

[The Cobra]

Never thought we were a top 4 side.

Plenty of issues to work on.

Not after sacking a coach. But there are questions to be asked.
As has been stated already we've used 28 players in a year of exploration.
There are blokes who won't make it but I'd rather them get the chance to prove us wrong.

The same senior blokes are continually getting Mulligan's.
We've got blokes who are out of form and aren't being dropped. We spoke about the idea of selection integrity in regards to Members. Has that integrity continued? I'd suggest not.

So when I watch press conferences that say one thing but the actions don't mesh I'll ask the question.

Not Looking for an argument - you make a valid point & our midfield other than Crouch is struggling.

What I will say is listen closely to what RTB has to say - a footy savant - he has an outstanding understanding of the game - unlike most of us armchair experts (me included!)

Just reckon he is hamstrung by the quality of the resources he has available - lets see what list changes are made at the end of the year - reckon he has put a line through a few but has to keep them on side during this season to win as many as we can. Just maybe he has surmised the other options are no good (though I would like to see what Bytel has to offer with a run of games).

 

[Saint Shags]

Members then became available and straight back in, got injured straight back out

This did not happen. He had to play VFL before getting back into the seniors. His injury was not due to soft tissue. He got knocked out.

So say as example, Gresh is underforming and many question him being there, who is waiting in the wings as that dynamic mid

Has he actually given us much? It seems we'd rather keep him in to drive his price up. I'd rather do some experimenting.
We actually have a few half-back flankers that were drafted for totally different positions.

We are limited by a lack of dare in changing things up. Why not try Stocker in more of a midfield role? That's what he played as a junior. Yes we have half back flankers but a few of them could play in different roles.
What about Higgins?
Play Sincs full time mid.
Trial the likes of Peris as purely a crumbing forward. Or hell even look at what Connolly can give us in place of Byrnes.
It was only 2 weeks ago that a number on the forum bitched and moaned about Howard. Yet he kept his spot. Isn't that what Cordy was brought in for?


I'm not asking for the blokes coming back from injury. They need time.
But there are blokes we haven't tried in any role. And for this year of exploration using 28 is not exploring anything.

 

[Saint Shags]

reckon he has put a line through a few but has to keep them on side during this season to win as many as we can

I'm not here to argue for the sake of things and apologies if I come across as rude.

Although I have to ask is keeping them in the side for win value actually good for the team? Developmental wise and draft capital wise?

And if anyone has listened to the Saints TV ep this week with the President either he's lying about this we are so close to the top stuff or someone ain't telling him the truth. We have some big holes in the list.

 

[The Cobra]

I'm not here to argue for the sake of things and apologies if I come across as rude.

Although I have to ask is keeping them in the side for win value actually good for the team? Developmental wise and draft capital wise?

And if anyone has listened to the Saints TV ep this week with the President either he's lying about this we are so close to the top stuff or someone ain't telling him the truth. We have some big holes in the list.

Hear what you say!

Re the Pres I dont reckon he has great football insight (though probably more than mine) but I was pleased that we at least had what seems a sound football and off field strategy - gives me a lot of optimism!

 

[Dr Spaceman]

No surprise our form has tapered off since the big recruit was dropped, bring back the Cordy!
Go saints

 

[gringo2011]

For a so called year of exploration, we've used 28 players for the year still

Hopefully Peris gets a go as sub, not sure he's good enough but maybe he shows something

Haven't had many fit players to come in though. The experiments are already in the side.

 

[gringo2011]

Never thought we were a top 4 side.

Plenty of issues to work on.

Not after sacking a coach. But there are questions to be asked.
As has been stated already we've used 28 players in a year of exploration.
There are blokes who won't make it but I'd rather them get the chance to prove us wrong.

The same senior blokes are continually getting Mulligan's.
We've got blokes who are out of form and aren't being dropped. We spoke about the idea of selection integrity in regards to Members. Has that integrity continued? I'd suggest not.

So when I watch press conferences that say one thing but the actions don't mesh I'll ask the question.

Who would you take out and replace with who? Our best performed VFL players are guys like Highmore, Campbell and Bytel. Billings off a small sample size. Otherwise we have a lot of very new kids like Keeler and Hotton who are both off interrupted seasons due to injury and old guys who are probably up against it. We have had a heap of injury to guys who are legitimate upgrade depth like DMac, Jones, Hayes, Billings, Membrey etc.

 

[AirWinmar]

My feel is RTB wants to give players and the team time to settle and will really 'explore' how players go before chopping and changing the team. Chopping players after 1 or 2 games doesnt necessarily tell you too much. We've already explored quite a lot of our players. Think Byrnes will want to have a good game this game. Pou could be similar.

The other thing in exploring not just the players at team selection, but the different roles they play. It doesn't seem like much but Pou had a some minutes at half back a couple of games, obviously Sincs in the midfield, Cordy forward, NWM killing it off hbf this year, Patons played some wing. Owens into the ruck - ok I'll stop there lol

 

[AirWinmar]

Who would you take out and replace with who? Our best performed VFL players are guys like Highmore, Campbell and Bytel. Billings off a small sample size. Otherwise we have a lot of very new kids like Keeler and Hotton who are both off interrupted seasons due to injury and old guys who are probably up against it. We have had a heap of injury to guys who are legitimate upgrade depth like DMac, Jones, Hayes, Billings, Membrey etc.

I'd replace Byrnes for Bytel pretty easily. We need more rotation through the mids and Bytel could play wing and at least he can kick with some level of accuracy

 

[Cairnsman]

For a so called year of exploration, we've used 28 players for the year still

Hopefully Peris gets a go as sub, not sure he's good enough but maybe he shows something

Peris is another at Sandy that is way off the pace but I think Lyon should given him a go for no other reason just to prove he's way off the pace and show the fans he knows what an AFL standard player is, essentially good PR with the Fans.

If Lyon is to succeed he needs to show the fans his biggest challenge, the same challenge that has plagued the club for 150 years, and that is the procurement of a quality list capable of challenging.

So what is Lyons magic trick? What trick does he have that no one else has to procure a Flag type list?

Fascinating watching over the next few years because our club has only ever had 2 GF type teams in 150 years and a coach is only as good as the quality on his list.

 

[MUFKilda]

Saints by 40.

Lose this and we'll be crammed like sardines on the #eco thread

 

[Cairnsman]

Haven't had many fit players to come in though. The experiments are already in the side.

Exactly Gringos, we have had virtually zero AFL capable players to choose from at Sandy for most of the season. Even with the likes of Billing, Jones, DMac and Hayes coming back from LT injuries our list is still very vulnerable and those players are now officially in the unreliable category so hardly players you can build a GF type team with. I've said for over 12 months now I feel we really only have about 8-10 players who might be capable of forming a GF type list. We seriously need to find a magic trick over the next few years to attract and recruit GF type players to the club. A mini rebuild has to commence at the trade table this year.

 

[Saintbloke]

Exactly Gringos, we have had virtually zero AFL capable players to choose from at Sandy for most of the season. Even with the likes of Billing, Jones, DMac and Hayes coming back from LT injuries our list is still very vulnerable and those players are now officially in the unreliable category so hardly players you can build a GF type team with. I've said for over 12 months now I feel we really only have about 8-10 players who might be capable of forming a GF type list. We seriously need to find a magic trick over the next few years to attract and recruit GF type players to the club. A mini rebuild has to commence at the trade table this year.

Don't mention the word "rebuild" at St Kilda..we know what happened to Watters

 

[Coconut_twirl]

Saints by 40.

Lose this and we'll be crammed like sardines on the #eco thread

There still will be fans complaining if The Saints only win by 40.

 

[bird_man]

There still will be fans complaining if The Saints only win by 40.

Probably. Percentage could possibly decide who finishes 8 this year and we are going to be right on the cusp.

A big win here would be nice

 

[Cairnsman]

Don't mention the word "rebuild" at St Kilda..we know what happened to Watters

Our coach is a highly skilled real estate salesman, he calls rebuilds a renovators dream, aka (Exploration Year)

 

[gringo2011]

I'd replace Byrnes for Bytel pretty easily. We need more rotation through the mids and Bytel could play wing and at least he can kick with some level of accuracy

That's the thing though. Byrnes has dropped off by heaps lately but one thing you don't see on TV his incredible work rate. He's still very impressive in his ability to get end to end at top speed. He was up in our forward 50 then defending the ball going inside 50 still when Brissy went forward before they dragged him. Bytel really is one one position mid so unless they decide to rest Steele or Crouch he's going to struggle to find a spot.

They should have rested Steele when he was struggling but Bytel was also unlucky to get a concussion at the same time Steele missed games 2 years in a row. Funny enough Byrnes inside 50 kick that set up a goal was one of the cleanest for the night and his run got him in the right spot to kick his goal.

I can see Byrnes does stuff that fans don't rate that coaches do but his production wants to step up. Butler was working right up the field against Richmond and was moving right up the field with the play against Brisbane. Perhaps we'll move him into Byrnes high half forward running role and put Peris in Butts spot.

 

[gringo2011]

My feel is RTB wants to give players and the team time to settle and will really 'explore' how players go before chopping and changing the team. Chopping players after 1 or 2 games doesnt necessarily tell you too much. We've already explored quite a lot of our players. Think Byrnes will want to have a good game this game. Pou could be similar.

The other thing in exploring not just the players at team selection, but the different roles they play. It doesn't seem like much but Pou had a some minutes at half back a couple of games, obviously Sincs in the midfield, Cordy forward, NWM killing it off hbf this year, Patons played some wing. Owens into the ruck - ok I'll stop there lol

Yeah, structure and system sides have to have a base level of stability because it relies on everyone knowing their roles and heaps of synchronicity. Mess around with changes too much and you turn into a player soup. Lyon likes stability because the stability is what makes sides really good at knowing each other's game. A shitter side can take down a better side through teamwork that way.

He's never going to be a guy who throws the magnets around in a creative way. He's more like some flagellation cult leader who thinks that they'll get closer to perfection through sacrifice and routine. Bevo is probably the most creative of the current coaches. He'll change things up to keep from getting stale.

 

[gringo2011]

Exactly Gringos, we have had virtually zero AFL capable players to choose from at Sandy for most of the season. Even with the likes of Billing, Jones, DMac and Hayes coming back from LT injuries our list is still very vulnerable and those players are now officially in the unreliable category so hardly players you can build a GF type team with. I've said for over 12 months now I feel we really only have about 8-10 players who might be capable of forming a GF type list. We seriously need to find a magic trick over the next few years to attract and recruit GF type players to the club. A mini rebuild has to commence at the trade table this year.

I'm a bit more optimistic. Melbourne had a similar injury run before winning a flag. Collingwood fell away with injury then came good again. It's a positive negative. You develop players that would have otherwise played at Sandy and find a level of depth that you never knew you had. I think we just have to stay the course personally.

 

[AirWinmar]

That's the thing though. Byrnes has dropped off by heaps lately but one thing you don't see on TV his incredible work rate. He's still very impressive in his ability to get end to end at top speed. He was up in our forward 50 then defending the ball going inside 50 still when Brissy went forward before they dragged him. Bytel really is one one position mid so unless they decide to rest Steele or Crouch he's going to struggle to find a spot.

They should have rested Steele when he was struggling but Bytel was also unlucky to get a concussion at the same time Steele missed games 2 years in a row. Funny enough Byrnes inside 50 kick that set up a goal was one of the cleanest for the night and his run got him in the right spot to kick his goal.

I can see Byrnes does stuff that fans don't rate that coaches do but his production wants to step up. Butler was working right up the field against Richmond and was moving right up the field with the play against Brisbane. Perhaps we'll move him into Byrnes high half forward running role and put Peris in Butts spot.

Yeah I've seen Byrnes work rate when I get to games and appreciate. He is still probably doing well defensively, imo Bytel could do that role to a similar capability tho, with less pace obviously and more reliable ball use and hopefully getting it more and being able to rotate on ball - pretty sure he has rotated to the wing when he has played in the 1s. Byrnes kicks a bit like Jones where it's hit or miss and likes to kick it quite hard. The ones he hits look good, but he also messes a lot up.

 

[gringo2011]

Yeah I've seen Byrnes work rate when I get to games and appreciate. He is still probably doing well defensively, imo Bytel could do that role to a similar capability tho, with less pace obviously and more reliable ball use and hopefully getting it more and being able to rotate on ball - pretty sure he has rotated to the wing when he has played in the 1s. Byrnes kicks a bit like Jones where it's hit or miss and likes to kick it quite hard. The ones he hits look good, but he also messes a lot up.

I'm less confident on Bytel. He really seems like an inside mid or bust.

 

[Mowman]

I'm less confident on Bytel. He really seems like an inside mid or bust.

Sandy put a thing out the other day
Bytel player of the month
Averaging 29.4 touches a game

He should be playing this game ahead of Seb

 

[Desperate saint]

Same.

I wish more people on the forum would watch these.

A lot of the concerns that posters here mention are directly addressed.

Noteable

• He didn't like the way we played on the weekend, he thought we lost our boldness and aggressiveness in attack and in defense and we were folding back rather than pushing up to the contest aggressively
• Acknowledged our clearance and contest work has been sub-par and needs to improve
• Said they were going over vision from early in the year and training drills that they used in the offseason which had us playing the way they wanted early in the year.

Agree says all that -then leaves the team basically the same and brings back Ross into an under performing midfield -Bytel what does he have to do to get a game ?

 

[Desperate saint]

Sandy put a thing out the other day
Bytel player of the month
Averaging 29.4 touches a game

He should be playing this game ahead of Seb

100% -i am concerned with selection integrity and Billings had a ripper-i am all for playing the youngsters but Caminiti and Phillipou have just been going these last 6 weeks

 

[Desperate saint]

Never thought we were a top 4 side.

Plenty of issues to work on.

Not after sacking a coach. But there are questions to be asked.
As has been stated already we've used 28 players in a year of exploration.
There are blokes who won't make it but I'd rather them get the chance to prove us wrong.

The same senior blokes are continually getting Mulligan's.
We've got blokes who are out of form and aren't being dropped. We spoke about the idea of selection integrity in regards to Members. Has that integrity continued? I'd suggest not.

So when I watch press conferences that say one thing but the actions don't mesh I'll ask the question.

agree completely -we have barely been going and he keeps the same players in week in and week out