Preview Round 19, 2023: St.Kilda v North Melbourne - Marvel Stadium, Sunday 23rd July, 4:40PM AEST

[StFly]

It’s fine that Bytel is playing but ultimately he’s just more of the same. We need leg speed in the middle, surely you’d put Owens or Windhager in there if you’re looking for another midfielder. Super nervous that North will run us off our legs.

Generally speaking a Crouch or Steele shifted forward under Ratts when Bytel played, so more than likely it'll be a dependent on if we need marking targets a Owens will stay largely forward, if we don't and rely on movement instead, all of Owens, Crouch and Steele more than likely rotate in and out of F50 flank and centre.

Less worried North will run us off legs and more worried that we'll give them chances to catch a few straight out of position due to a screw up and some of our mob will just shrug shoulders and not bother to follow up and point for someone else to do it instead.

 

[Mavefromdelburn]

I am glad Bytel is getting another crack because I feel like if he doesn't prove himself now, it may be nearly the end for him.
I have watched a lot of him over the last few years at the VFL mostly, and I really rate his in and under work and his hands in tight in the contest. He'd be up there with the best on our list at that. Has genuinely great vision and hands in the contest.

I just worry about his leg speed. He really doesn't have that extra step or explosiveness.
Now I know a lot of mids don't, almost all others on our list except Jones, and plenty of others through the league, but he really tries to use his legs to take some ground and gets pinged repeatedly instead of utilising his weapons - in and under, fire a handball outside. I'd say an average of 2 or 3 a game he gets pinged. A free kick to the opposition right in the centre of the field - one kick from i50 for them. It's not ideal.

Would love for him to make it, has seriously useful talent and has had some rotten luck over the last couple of years, waiting behind our other inside mids and then getting injured as soon as a spot becomes available to him.

Hope he kills it.

 

[mad-saint-guy]

I think he was pretty similar to be honest. Butler is a slight upgrade probably but no outrageously so. Definitely speed stopped him being a level up from a GOP. Lonies pressure game was pretty underrated though.

I think Lonie was much more a poor man's Higgins than similar to Butler. Lonie tried to play as a marking forward quite a bit and he had some smarts but was too small, slow and weak to ever impact consistently.

Over his career Butler averages 1.2 goals, 1.9 marks and 3.8 tackles per game, compared to Lonie's 0.8 goals, 3 marks and 2.6 tackles.

 

[70s sainter]

I think Lonie was much more a poor man's Higgins than similar to Butler. Lonie tried to play as a marking forward quite a bit and he had some smarts but was too small, slow and weak to ever impact consistently.

Over his career Butler averages 1.2 goals, 1.9 marks and 3.8 tackles per game, compared to Lonie's 0.8 goals, 3 marks and 2.6 tackles.

Lonie ………hehe .

 

[Minga]

Well said George. Yeah your negative outlook can grate a little but reckon we all understand where it comes from as we all feel it too.

I've been to more games this year than I've been to in a long long time all travelling from regional NSW. I've loved it, hated it, shouted at it, laughed at it. Been to 11 games already. I'm actually calmer seeing our future and how we look going into the next few years. Also think the coaching is going better all things considered.

Ultimately we all just want progress to be quicker.

Loved all the laughs on here. The Essendon pre 150th game thread should go into the Big Footy Hall of Fame.

The 150th pregame thread and the game thereafter at the G definitely the highlight of the year so far. Had a lot of fun that week, posters alley-ooping on the bombers supporters chirping up was heartwarming.

Saints by 10 goals.

 

[seasonedsainter]

More actual midfielders in the team than for most of the year I'd reckon, that's a step in the right direction.

 

[Cairnsman]

Imagine following a player so closely that you know exactly which teams he played before he was dropped - over two years.

Come on, admit it, you’ve got a secret crush on him!

I’ll leave the close following to the fanboys.

 

[austinnn]

Shhh weird train person



Not me mate
But if i was over there id be there
Went to the one that was Boomer flog Harvey's 4millionth game
Prob one of the last 5 games I went to, it's been that long

I can't even remember the last game I went to: would have been 2003, maybe 2002. The start of the careers of players like Joey and Dal: time flies. I miss it, thank god for the internet.

 

[austinnn]

Of course. There is no other success.

Disagree. I think GT and Ross achieved a kind of success at St Kilda, turning a perennial rabble into a feared team that regularly competed in finals.

Of course, the Ultimate Success eluded them, but what their teams achieved a level most Saints fans hadn't seen before, on a limited budget and with the AFL media all laughing at them, particularly GT.

I think getting Gold Coast and GWS to build an authentic culture would be a success, likewise I think getting a club like us or North to start attracting enough interest from fans and sponsors to become independent and profitable would be a success.

If Ross gets us back to being consistent finalists with a clear culture of uncompromising competitiveness who are a force in the comp and passes the baton to his successor with the club in great shape then that's job done imo

 

[Cairnsman]

Of course. There is no other success.

If Ross 3.0 doesn’t end in a flag it will consign him to the history books as a complete failure forcing the truck to back over his failure to win a premiership with the incredibly gifted list he had as Ross 1.0 and then Ross 2.0 and then failing to rebuild a list and finishing the last 4 years with a winning percentage of 33%. The truck will back over his one trick, defence, sorry two tricks, defence and training standards.

He’s taken on the hardest job in professional sport in Australia and that is to attract enough talent to our poor club capable of sustained success and flags, and that’s the trick I’m sceptical he won’t find a magic wand for. Not that it’s any reflection of him as a coach necessarily, but more about the club he’s at.

Can’t see what he’s going to be able to do that hardly any other coach in 150 years has been able to achieve with the exception of one.

Things will get worse before they get better with regards to the winning percentage over the remainder of his contract while he guts and rebuilds the list.

I just hope the club don’t do what the club do and crap their pants too early.

 

[bergholt]

I just hope the club don’t do what the club do and crap their pants too early.

Yep spot on. Someone will say “we have to stay competitive” then we’ll sign Jonas and Tomlinson and the other Crouch and some s**t 30 year old ruck.

 

[#gosaintas]

Cabana is for peasants. Seriously though I'm thinking of taking half a car worth of food and booze up there. They have you trapped and charge like Marvel stadium for s**t food and drink. You're so cold you can't do anything but drink and eat. We've booked an undercover park below the snow line and a bus transfer to the chalet ...... $450. I got the car serviced to put antifreeze in and forgot to tell him to put antifreeze in and had to pay it. I'm going to be getting on the bus with my bags clinking.

Anything built in the last 15 years won't need anti freeze.
If car is diesel then will need alpine diesel or an additive in the fuel tank. If petrol then no concerns.
No need to park undercover - just drive up to the carparks and then get the oversnow transports.
And yes - bring everything 'cos the supermarket and grog shop up there will kill you. If you need stuff from there they will deliver to your chalet.

 

[sammm]

We couldn’t put in a worse performance than the Aussie cricket team overnight could we?

Maybe,

 

[Sunshine Sainter]

Just checked the cameras and looks cold as *. I could have been in the tropics.

21C and sunny here today on Sunshine Coast. So even. a loss or bad win it will still be glorious here.

 

[Sun Ra]

OPINION​

Why there is tension at the top at Moorabbin, as Saints’ season teeters​

Caroline Wilson​

Football columnist for The Age
July 22, 2023 — 5.00am

North Melbourne made some poor decisions during Ben Buckley’s five-year reign as president but parting ways with Carl Dilena at the end of a messy 2019 season stands out as among the most inexplicable.

Appointed as chief executive by Buckley’s predecessor James Brayshaw seven years earlier after then-Geelong CEO Brian Cook was courted but ultimately declined the role, Dilena had been a Kangaroos board member for more than a decade who saw an opportunity and departed his senior partnership at KPMG to move full-time into football.

During his regime, North Melbourne eradicated its hefty long-term debt, which had almost brought the club to its knees, signed a lucrative deal with the Tasmanian Government-owned TT-Line to play home games in Hobart, and won the right to field a foundation AFLW team – appointing the highly regarded Laura Kane to oversee the debutantes. Significantly, too, Dilena invested extra funding into a football department that had been operating lean. During his seven years at the helm and with Brad Scott as coach, North made the finals three times for two top four finishes.

Former North Melbourne CEO Carl Dilena is now at St Kilda.CREDIT: GETTY IMAGES

Since his exit the Kangaroos have finished 17th once and 18th twice and look headed for their fourth consecutive bottom two season.
Dilena seemingly paid the price for his handling of Scott’s difficult final 18 months. After Scott’s controversial departure early in the 2019 season, club director and Shinboner of the Century Glenn Archer had a major say in a series of key football decisions and the collective view was that Dilena had not been adequately robust. Suffice to say those who oversaw his exit also oversaw the start of a much bigger shambles.

His replacement Ben Amarfio resigned after three years. Since Scott, five different senior coaches have mentored the struggling team and the challenge of rebuilding the Kangaroos has been taken up by Sonja Hood, Jen Watt and a still fragile Alastair Clarkson.
Dilena returned to the AFL community late last year when new St Kilda boss Simon Lethlean brought him in as his second-in-command at the Saints. Interestingly, Dilena narrowly missed out on the top administrative job at Essendon, despite some strong industry recommendations and being heavily backed by new coach Scott. President David Barham selected Craig Vozzo instead.

Now Dilena has emerged as an intriguing player in the administrative puzzle spreading from head office to a handful of AFL clubs. Hawthorn is actively seeking a new chief executive to replace Justin Reeves and at least one other club should soon be in a similar position, given Andrew Dillon’s belief that his new executive requires a senior operator with club experience.

Even if Brendon Gale does not leave Richmond to join Dillon at the AFL, there are a number of other CEOs in that queue, while Brian Cook made it clear his time at Carlton would probably be limited to the term of his three-year contract which ends next year.

But the most intriguing remains the current scenario at Moorabbin, where Ross Lyon has brought in his own team and taken over the football operation while voicing increasing frustration with the football situation he inherited.

Now Dilena has emerged as an intriguing player in the administrative puzzle spreading from head office to a handful of AFL clubs. Hawthorn is actively seeking a new chief executive to replace Justin Reeves and at least one other club should soon be in a similar position, given Andrew Dillon’s belief that his new executive requires a senior operator with club experience.

Even if Brendon Gale does not leave Richmond to join Dillon at the AFL, there are a number of other CEOs in that queue, while Brian Cook made it clear his time at Carlton would probably be limited to the term of his three-year contract which ends next year.

But the most intriguing remains the current scenario at Moorabbin, where Ross Lyon has brought in his own team and taken over the football operation while voicing increasing frustration with the football situation he inherited.

There are murmurs of friction between St Kilda coach Ross Lyon and CEO Simon Lethlean, pictured here alongside president Andrew Bassat.CREDIT: GETTY IMAGES

Despite denials from both men it is clear that the relationship between the new senior coach and his CEO Simon Lethlean is not working as well as it should be. Significantly Lethlean – before being promoted to the top job – ran the football department which was significantly pruned and reshuffled, first by the new incumbent Geoff Walsh and further by Lyon after Walsh quit.

The Lyon-Lethlean situation needs to be resolved and president Andrew Bassat – who flexed his muscle for the first time last year in standing up to the football department over the pursuit of Jordan De Goey

2

Jordan De Goey

Age

28

Ht

188cm

Wt

93kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.7

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

6.7

4star

M

3.9

4star

T

3.1

5star

CL

2.3

4star

D

15.8

4star

K

9.7

4star

HB

6.2

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

1.7

3star

CL

2.3

4star

D

11.6

3star

K

6.2

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

1.4

2star

T

4.8

5star

CL

2.6

5star

and by bringing in Lyon to replace Brett Ratten

Brett Ratten

Age

52

Ht

184cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

22.4

5star

K

12.1

4star

HB

10.3

5star

M

2.9

3star

T

3.0

5star

No current season stats available

D

26.4

5star

K

13.8

5star

HB

12.6

5star

M

3.4

4star

T

1.6

4star

– must play the pivotal role. The Saints have endured too much pain for too long to leave disharmony between its two key people unattended.

Although Lethlean has been adamant that he has moved on from the football role, Lyon’s preference is for a CEO who allows the football operation to run largely independently. Asked about murmurs of friction between the pair, Lyon told a press conference this week: “There’s been some change and with change, I wouldn’t say there’s unhappiness, but sometimes not everyone’s comfortable with change.

“But from my end and Simon’s end, we’re fine... I haven’t had one raised word with Simon since I’ve been here. That’s the truth.”

Lyon’s frustrations as the Saints have struggled on the field after a bright start to 2023 seems matched by the deficiencies in the list he inherited, and which he has now charged list manager Stephen Silvgani and talent boss Graeme Allan with rebuilding.

Lethlean has played down interest in the Hawthorn job, where he has significant connections, but he has been sounded out for the role.

At a time when the industry is bemoaning the lack of next-generation administrative talent it would be extraordinary if the Hawks had not approached Dilena – who carries a reputation of having a hands-off approach to his senior coach and empowering his staff.

The company line is that Dilena – Ross Lyon’s teammate for two years at Fitzroy – is relishing his return to football and happy in his current role as St Kilda’s COO. But should Lethlean move, Moorabbin has the ideal replacement waiting in the wings.

​

 

[Sun Ra]

Letters to The Age today ..........

When silence is golden​

Re Nick Riewoldt’s comments about St Kilda, his old club – “the standards in that joint over the last however long have been sub-par” (Sport, 20/7) – are totally inappropriate for a former captain. Past players should not be harshly critical of the hand that fed them. I wonder how Riewoldt would have felt if past St Kilda players were rightfully critical of him after his ordinary performance as captain in St Kilda’s grand final losses.

- Stephen Rae, former Richmond and St Kilda player, Portland

 

[gringo2011]

Anything built in the last 15 years won't need anti freeze.
If car is diesel then will need alpine diesel or an additive in the fuel tank. If petrol then no concerns.
No need to park undercover - just drive up to the carparks and then get the oversnow transports.
And yes - bring everything 'cos the supermarket and grog shop up there will kill you. If you need stuff from there they will deliver to your chalet.

Is that serious about the anti freeze? The internet has conflicting info. Heaps saying don't put additives in existing coolant or it will turn to jelly and kill your car. I've paid for the transfers already now. That's a bitch. I can't find the snow chains anyway so maybe it's better anyway.

Will def bring stuff with me. Been stung at the snow before. Pretty sure the snow is a way for elitists to pretend they are having more fun than everyone else but they all really hate being cold and uncomfortable but do it for show. I can never stay interested long enough to be good at skiing or boarding so find it a frustration. I'm much more of a sit around a pool or beach guy.

 

[gringo2011]

21C and sunny here today on Sunshine Coast. So even. a loss or bad win it will still be glorious here.

Bali would have been even warmer. I could have been in a villa for 10 days for the same money.

 

[#gosaintas]

Is that serious about the anti freeze? The internet has conflicting info. Heaps saying don't put additives in existing coolant or it will turn to jelly and kill your car. I've paid for the transfers already now. That's a bitch. I can't find the snow chains anyway so maybe it's better anyway.

Will def bring stuff with me. Been stung at the snow before. Pretty sure the snow is a way for elitists to pretend they are having more fun than everyone else but they all really hate being cold and uncomfortable but do it for show. I can never stay interested long enough to be good at skiing or boarding so find it a frustration. I'm much more of a sit around a pool or beach guy.

Yes - the car's coolant already has anti freeze in it. Was only relevant when we used to fill up the radiator with water.
Don't agree that the snow is for elitists at all. Even if not skiing it's pretty ace just being in the mountains and walking from bar to restaurant to bar again.
That balcony at Koflers on a sunny day is worth putting the skis on for.

 

[gringo2011]

Yes - the car's coolant already has anti freeze in it. Was only relevant when we used to fill up the radiator with water.
Don't agree that the snow is for elitists at all. Even if not skiing it's pretty ace just being in the mountains and walking from bar to restaurant to bar again.
That balcony at Koflers on a sunny day is worth putting the skis on for.

I'm not a cold guy. I can do snow for about half an hour before I've got the idea and ready to go back inside and not see it again for a few years. That said I'd like to go to some of the Euro alps. I love diving through them even in summer. Actually the vic high country is nice when it's not cold too.

 

[#gosaintas]

I'm not a cold guy. I can do snow for about half an hour before I've got the idea and ready to go back inside and not see it again for a few years. That said I'd like to go to some of the Euro alps. I love diving through them even in summer. Actually the vic high country is nice when it's not cold too.

Dolomites in Italy is the go

 

[seasonedsainter]

Letters to The Age today ..........

When silence is golden​

Re Nick Riewoldt’s comments about St Kilda, his old club – “the standards in that joint over the last however long have been sub-par” (Sport, 20/7) – are totally inappropriate for a former captain. Past players should not be harshly critical of the hand that fed them. I wonder how Riewoldt would have felt if past St Kilda players were rightfully critical of him after his ordinary performance as captain in St Kilda’s grand final losses.

- Stephen Rae, former Richmond and St Kilda player, Portland

Jog on Stephen, Roo can say whatever he wants and vice versa people to him, I'm sure he's heard them all over the years, fecking yawn....

 

[MordySaint]

OPINION​

Why there is tension at the top at Moorabbin, as Saints’ season teeters​

Caroline Wilson​

Football columnist for The Age
July 22, 2023 — 5.00am

North Melbourne made some poor decisions during Ben Buckley’s five-year reign as president but parting ways with Carl Dilena at the end of a messy 2019 season stands out as among the most inexplicable.

Appointed as chief executive by Buckley’s predecessor James Brayshaw seven years earlier after then-Geelong CEO Brian Cook was courted but ultimately declined the role, Dilena had been a Kangaroos board member for more than a decade who saw an opportunity and departed his senior partnership at KPMG to move full-time into football.

During his regime, North Melbourne eradicated its hefty long-term debt, which had almost brought the club to its knees, signed a lucrative deal with the Tasmanian Government-owned TT-Line to play home games in Hobart, and won the right to field a foundation AFLW team – appointing the highly regarded Laura Kane to oversee the debutantes. Significantly, too, Dilena invested extra funding into a football department that had been operating lean. During his seven years at the helm and with Brad Scott as coach, North made the finals three times for two top four finishes.

Former North Melbourne CEO Carl Dilena is now at St Kilda.CREDIT: GETTY IMAGES

Since his exit the Kangaroos have finished 17th once and 18th twice and look headed for their fourth consecutive bottom two season.
Dilena seemingly paid the price for his handling of Scott’s difficult final 18 months. After Scott’s controversial departure early in the 2019 season, club director and Shinboner of the Century Glenn Archer had a major say in a series of key football decisions and the collective view was that Dilena had not been adequately robust. Suffice to say those who oversaw his exit also oversaw the start of a much bigger shambles.

His replacement Ben Amarfio resigned after three years. Since Scott, five different senior coaches have mentored the struggling team and the challenge of rebuilding the Kangaroos has been taken up by Sonja Hood, Jen Watt and a still fragile Alastair Clarkson.
Dilena returned to the AFL community late last year when new St Kilda boss Simon Lethlean brought him in as his second-in-command at the Saints. Interestingly, Dilena narrowly missed out on the top administrative job at Essendon, despite some strong industry recommendations and being heavily backed by new coach Scott. President David Barham selected Craig Vozzo instead.

Now Dilena has emerged as an intriguing player in the administrative puzzle spreading from head office to a handful of AFL clubs. Hawthorn is actively seeking a new chief executive to replace Justin Reeves and at least one other club should soon be in a similar position, given Andrew Dillon’s belief that his new executive requires a senior operator with club experience.

Even if Brendon Gale does not leave Richmond to join Dillon at the AFL, there are a number of other CEOs in that queue, while Brian Cook made it clear his time at Carlton would probably be limited to the term of his three-year contract which ends next year.

But the most intriguing remains the current scenario at Moorabbin, where Ross Lyon has brought in his own team and taken over the football operation while voicing increasing frustration with the football situation he inherited.

Now Dilena has emerged as an intriguing player in the administrative puzzle spreading from head office to a handful of AFL clubs. Hawthorn is actively seeking a new chief executive to replace Justin Reeves and at least one other club should soon be in a similar position, given Andrew Dillon’s belief that his new executive requires a senior operator with club experience.

Even if Brendon Gale does not leave Richmond to join Dillon at the AFL, there are a number of other CEOs in that queue, while Brian Cook made it clear his time at Carlton would probably be limited to the term of his three-year contract which ends next year.

But the most intriguing remains the current scenario at Moorabbin, where Ross Lyon has brought in his own team and taken over the football operation while voicing increasing frustration with the football situation he inherited.

There are murmurs of friction between St Kilda coach Ross Lyon and CEO Simon Lethlean, pictured here alongside president Andrew Bassat.CREDIT: GETTY IMAGES

Despite denials from both men it is clear that the relationship between the new senior coach and his CEO Simon Lethlean is not working as well as it should be. Significantly Lethlean – before being promoted to the top job – ran the football department which was significantly pruned and reshuffled, first by the new incumbent Geoff Walsh and further by Lyon after Walsh quit.

The Lyon-Lethlean situation needs to be resolved and president Andrew Bassat – who flexed his muscle for the first time last year in standing up to the football department over the pursuit of Jordan De Goey and by bringing in Lyon to replace Brett Ratten – must play the pivotal role. The Saints have endured too much pain for too long to leave disharmony between its two key people unattended.

Although Lethlean has been adamant that he has moved on from the football role, Lyon’s preference is for a CEO who allows the football operation to run largely independently. Asked about murmurs of friction between the pair, Lyon told a press conference this week: “There’s been some change and with change, I wouldn’t say there’s unhappiness, but sometimes not everyone’s comfortable with change.

“But from my end and Simon’s end, we’re fine... I haven’t had one raised word with Simon since I’ve been here. That’s the truth.”

Lyon’s frustrations as the Saints have struggled on the field after a bright start to 2023 seems matched by the deficiencies in the list he inherited, and which he has now charged list manager Stephen Silvgani and talent boss Graeme Allan with rebuilding.

Lethlean has played down interest in the Hawthorn job, where he has significant connections, but he has been sounded out for the role.

At a time when the industry is bemoaning the lack of next-generation administrative talent it would be extraordinary if the Hawks had not approached Dilena – who carries a reputation of having a hands-off approach to his senior coach and empowering his staff.

The company line is that Dilena – Ross Lyon’s teammate for two years at Fitzroy – is relishing his return to football and happy in his current role as St Kilda’s COO. But should Lethlean move, Moorabbin has the ideal replacement waiting in the wings.

​

To be fair to Lethers, he's had a decent crack at it and no-one would begrudge him if he toddled off to Hawthorn.

 

[stfan]

We kicked plenty in 2009.
Having Roo, G-Train and Kosi helped though.
Don’t have any of those right now.

Also look at our middle then..

Lenny, BJ , Dal, Ball, Gram, Joey, Ray with Clint as the tagger able to run through the middle.

With Armo and Steven as the young blood not yet able to push the above out.

Our current midfield is simply just not in that league. Not by a long, long way.

 

[The Cobra]

I am glad Bytel is getting another crack because I feel like if he doesn't prove himself now, it may be nearly the end for him.
I have watched a lot of him over the last few years at the VFL mostly, and I really rate his in and under work and his hands in tight in the contest. He'd be up there with the best on our list at that. Has genuinely great vision and hands in the contest.

I just worry about his leg speed. He really doesn't have that extra step or explosiveness.
Now I know a lot of mids don't, almost all others on our list except Jones, and plenty of others through the league, but he really tries to use his legs to take some ground and gets pinged repeatedly instead of utilising his weapons - in and under, fire a handball outside. I'd say an average of 2 or 3 a game he gets pinged. A free kick to the opposition right in the centre of the field - one kick from i50 for them. It's not ideal.

Would love for him to make it, has seriously useful talent and has had some rotten luck over the last couple of years, waiting behind our other inside mids and then getting injured as soon as a spot becomes available to him.

Hope he kills it.

Agree

The problem we have is that Crouch (a lock), Steele, Ross and Bytel all lack explosive leg speed. You could probably play 2 inside mids as long as someone else is capable of a burst from stoppage. Jones is the best we have at but his disposal is so so.

Doubt Pou is the answer as he isn’t quick nor Owens (but he could develop into an elite bull in there - Petracca like?)

Reckon Steele could play forward as his kicking for goal is good but doubt he would like the shift!