Preview Round 20, 2023: Hawthorn v St.Kilda - Marvel Stadium, Sunday 30th July, 1:10PM AEST

[hayes]

I think you see it when you look for it to be honest. He's usually kicking at full pace which is the hardest to pull off. Same as Stuv. Being a good kick at the combine is easy because it's flat footed in a controlled environment. Having someone running at you while going full pace makes even the best kicks unreliable.

He's definitely on the shitter side of kicking but the off-set is that he's one of the few that can line break with his pace and sidestep. I'm not as obsessed with elite kicking as some others. There is a place for guys with different skill sets in AFL.

The bigger mystery is why he has become so unproductive and low impact this year. Looks like one of the worst players in the side after being one of our best for half of last year.

I’m not obsessed with elite kicking either because I don’t think it matters that much come finals time but I still think when he has time and space he’s an awful kick. His positives still far outweigh his negatives when he’s in good form though.

 

[SteeleSaints]

Hawthorn have named another tall forward in Brandon Ryan 200cm to debut. I wonder how we are going to match up in defence, as it was mentioned that Cordy trained with the forwards during the week. If Cordy plays foward perhaps Sharman is pushed back into defence? I am surprised they didnt bring Highmore in for some games...perhaps they are looking to bring Coffield back to play a 3rd tall role at some stage. Either way after losing Howard, we are going to be stretched in defence for the remainder.

Hawthorn only have the one ruckman this time round in Meek, so Cordy should be able to hold his own chopping out in the ruck.

After watching Carlton last night, tomorrow will be a good time to rediscover our form if we are any chance of winning enough games to play finals. Battle and Wilkie are going to have the hands full in the run home.

 

[Hayes4PM]

Top 5: Jade Gresham

Relive the magic of Jade Gresham as we revisit his top five goals.

www.saints.com.au

Watching Gresh play that small forward/Higgins role in his first few years to now hoofing up and unders into the forward line from the middle... What happened to you Gresh?

 

[bergholt]

While we can’t trade everyone, I’m landing closer to a rebuild or significant replumbing. We ain’t winning a flag in the next few years solely built around Steele/Sincs plus really improved younger guys turning into stars. That’s not going to be enough. Those younger guys plus a whole new set of young guns is our only chance. I want a flag, not being competitive. The Paddy/Billings draft era and then the Hill trade era have both slaughtered our near term.

Yeah agreed, and obviously we won't end up trading everyone. But I hope we trade a bunch of the guys older than Max. Contentious ones are Sincs, Steele, Higgins, Butler, Marshall. I'd hear offers on all of them but I can see the argument for keeping Sincs (because he's great) and Marshall (because we can't really replace him). And I'd keep Wilkie for leadership and make him captain - also because I don't think we get much of a price for him. Apart from that the others go out if we get something good for them.

 

[Mavefromdelburn]

One thing is for sure and that's I bet I could go back and check all the posters slagging gresh that they were loving him in games like the Geelong game or when he got us over the line against the Sun's game a few years back, but feel free to throw crap

Why so high and mighty?
You can used to like someone, then shift that view over time...

I used to love gresh. Now I can't wait to see the back of him because over time I got incredibly sick of watching him helicopter kicks 50m in the air. Not that crazy to realise.

 

[gringo2011]

Yep, hence my argument is that we should trade anyone older than Max who has currency - including Higgins and Butler. Many disagree though.

That would lead to a 4 to 10 year bottom out and then need to import an older generation like GC and GWS had to to guide and protect the youth. Not sure what it would achieve other than feeling like there was some movement happening. We would probably have to give up more to replace the older guys than we got for any current players and then stay down for years. We'd be better off moving out the s**t ones and playing kids if we want to go for draft picks. We'd still drop down hard but we wouldn't be trying to rebuild society after a nuclear winter.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Yeah agreed, and obviously we won't end up trading everyone. But I hope we trade a bunch of the guys older than Max. Contentious ones are Sincs, Steele, Higgins, Butler, Marshall. I'd hear offers on all of them but I can see the argument for keeping Sincs (because he's great) and Marshall (because we can't really replace him). And I'd keep Wilkie for leadership and make him captain - also because I don't think we get much of a price for him. Apart from that the others go out if we get something good for them.

I think our problem has been lack of professional standards. So those that don’t meet RtB’s standards are moved on, irrespective of what we get. And vice versa - regardless of high currency, if they’re going to be good leaders/role models for the kids then they stay. I suspect Gresh is gone even if he has to come moping back with a low ball offer. Clark might be the same (although I still think people are being too harsh for now - let’s see what he does in the last 5 games).

 

[Tommy Wigs]

That would lead to a 4 to 10 year bottom out and then need to import an older generation like GC and GWS had to to guide and protect the youth. Not sure what it would achieve other than feeling like there was some movement happening. We would probably have to give up more to replace the older guys than we got for any current players and then stay down for years. We'd be better off moving out the s**t ones and playing kids if we want to go for draft picks. We'd still drop down hard but we wouldn't be trying to rebuild society after a nuclear winter.

Whatever gives us the best shot at a flag. Because what we’ve been doing for a decade is half measures and protecting competitiveness sort of b/s.

 

[hayes]

Hawthorn have named another tall forward in Brandon Ryan 200cm to debut. I wonder how we are going to match up in defence, as it was mentioned that Cordy trained with the forwards during the week. If Cordy plays foward perhaps Sharman is pushed back into defence? I am surprised they didnt bring Highmore in for some games...perhaps they are looking to bring Coffield back to play a 3rd tall role at some stage. Either way after losing Howard, we are going to be stretched in defence for the remainder.

Hawthorn only have the one ruckman this time round in Meek, so Cordy should be able to hold his own chopping out in the ruck.

After watching Carlton last night, tomorrow will be a good time to rediscover our form if we are any chance of winning enough games to play finals. Battle and Wilkie are going to have the hands full in the run home.

Surely Cordy has to play back. There’s no way we can finish the year with Battle and Wilkie as our key defenders.

 

[gringo2011]

While we can’t trade everyone, I’m landing closer to a rebuild or significant replumbing. We ain’t winning a flag in the next few years solely built around Steele/Sincs plus really improved younger guys turning into stars. That’s not going to be enough. Those younger guys plus a whole new set of young guns is our only chance. I want a flag, not being competitive. The Paddy/Billings draft era and then the Hill trade era have both slaughtered our near term.

It goes back way longer. We started our poor drafting around 20 years ago. We just didn't find anyone top shelf after Brendan Goddard at the national draft. King was probably the best after that and some think he's s**t now he's had an injured year. Nas is probably the most accomplished first round pick in that time and we actually had plenty because we traded out our better players for picks.

To be vaguely competitive in that time while stuffing up everything we touched in the draft for so long is actually a great achievement.



In 2017 we had 7 current players listed: Ross, Membrey, DMac, Webster, Sinclair, Gresham, Billings. Playing at other clubs: Acres, McCartin, Dunstan and Hickey.

In 2017 Collingwood had 14 currently listed: Sidebottom, de Goey, Pendles, Adams, Keefe, Moore, Hoskin-Elliott, Maynard, Howe, Lynch, Cox, Elliott, Crisp, Josh Daicos. At other clubs Grundy, Aish and Treloar.



Collingwood's old boys have about 10 above B grade quality and a couple are elite. St Kilda has Sinclair and if you are generous Webster and Membrey.

Collingwood's rejects are better than our list of keepers.

Of our old boys only Sinclair is absolute best 22.

That shows how a good drafting side does it compared to what we were doing in that period.

 

[Cairnsman]

We’re a juggernaut, 5 on the trot coming up

I’m confused …is that meant to mean 5 by naughts as in 5 by losses?

 

[gringo2011]

Whatever gives us the best shot at a flag. Because what we’ve been doing for a decade is half measures and protecting competitiveness sort of b/s.

I won't work because you need players to bring through the youth. Pay the best drafting and list management team you can find what ever it costs if you want to rebuild because burning down the house to clean the kitchen makes you feel better while you are watching it go up but then you are even more ****ed than before.

The biggest issue is the older crew not being top quality at the moment, not the youth. I think we have to keep going on the same path and just be patient. Trying to make it faster ruined any chance of moving forward. Systematic and sensible planning will do more than any destructive actions.

 

[Cairnsman]

I’m not obsessed with elite kicking either because I don’t think it matters that much come finals time but I still think when he has time and space he’s an awful kick. His positives still far outweigh his negatives when he’s in good form though.

Elite kicking doesn’t matter in finals?

That’s next level thinking.

 

[jh38]

I won't work because you need players to bring through the youth. Pay the best drafting and list management team you can find what ever it costs if you want to rebuild because burning down the house to clean the kitchen makes you feel better while you are watching it go up but then you are even more ****ed than before.

The biggest issue is the older crew not being top quality at the moment, not the youth. I think we have to keep going on the same path and just be patient. Trying to make it faster ruined any chance of moving forward. Systematic and sensible planning will do more than any destructive actions.

You have to keep a few of the old heads around, maybe 1 or 2 on each line. Players like Seb and Membrey have invaluable experience, you'd keep them around for sure as role players. Its the guys 24-28 that need to be moved on, and it seems like the list management team is fully aware of that. Keep drafting well and don't reach for players that aren't there. We're on the right trajectory.

 

[Cairnsman]

One thing is for sure and that's I bet I could go back and check all the posters slagging gresh that they were loving him in games like the Geelong game or when he got us over the line against the Sun's game a few years back, but feel free to throw crap

You make it sound like he has eternal credits in the bank, how long can one player trade off a few highlights in only a few games?

We sacked a man in brutal style, it’s the players turn next. Time for players to put deliver ir move on. It’s not the country league where you play for mateship.

 

[bergholt]

I think our problem has been lack of professional standards. So those that don’t meet RtB’s standards are moved on, irrespective of what we get. And vice versa - regardless of high currency, if they’re going to be good leaders/role models for the kids then they stay. I suspect Gresh is gone even if he has to come moping back with a low ball offer. Clark might be the same (although I still think people are being too harsh for now - let’s see what he does in the last 5 games).

Yeah exactly. From the outside it’s impossible to tell which can adjust to higher standards and which are just further infecting the kids with mediocrity, but from the inside it’s hopefully more clear. I suspect there are very few at proper professional standards but if there are diamonds in the rough then obviously we keep them.

 

[Saintbloke]

You make it sound like he has eternal credits in the bank, how long can one player trade off a few highlights in only a few games?

We sacked a man in brutal style, it’s the players turn next. Time for players to put deliver ir move on. It’s not the country league where you play for mateship.

Everybody at the club is trying their hardest on and off the field. Gresh has the goods, but sadly I think chronic injuries have dulled his impact. Ratts would have had a few more wins under his belt had injuries to key players not stuffed things up later in the season last year.. maybe even scraped into finals, but that's the cut-throat world of pro sport.

 

[EddieMurphy]

There is more excuses flying around for Bytel than he has good games at the level

He hasn't shown enough to warrant a stretch of games in our weak midfield. That speaks louder than anything.

Played 22 senior games...

 

[EddieMurphy]

Whatever gives us the best shot at a flag. Because what we’ve been doing for a decade is half measures and protecting competitiveness sort of b/s.

If all teams do "what gives them the best shot for a flag" there are still going to be wooden spooners and mid table water treaders. There is a lot of luck involved in putting a contending team together we had a shot in the mid 2000s. Hard to see when our next chip in the big game is going to come along but agree that paying overs to finish a list needs to happen after some evidence the majority of the list is in place.

 

[gringo2011]

Yeah agreed, and obviously we won't end up trading everyone. But I hope we trade a bunch of the guys older than Max. Contentious ones are Sincs, Steele, Higgins, Butler, Marshall. I'd hear offers on all of them but I can see the argument for keeping Sincs (because he's great) and Marshall (because we can't really replace him). And I'd keep Wilkie for leadership and make him captain - also because I don't think we get much of a price for him. Apart from that the others go out if we get something good for them.

You'd be better to replace guys like Ross who look cooked and aren't going to be here in 4 years. I reckon the lack of continuity and playing together is part of the issue. Look at the Pies list and the bulk have played masses of footy together with a few prime kids helping bring some energy and POD.

We have a terribly thin middle rung and very ordinary older crew. If you don't have the older guys you have to import them. Lethlean tried it and ****ed it by paying overs to replace GOPs with GOPs at the cost of draft picks, time and money.

Our list looks more like North and Hawks than Pies right now and we have overachieved somewhat or at least chose to stay up rather than play lame to get picks.

 

[George]

One thing is for sure and that's I bet I could go back and check all the posters slagging gresh that they were loving him in games like the Geelong game or when he got us over the line against the Sun's game a few years back, but feel free to throw crap

The Geelong game was almost a decade ago. Suns game was 2018 wasn't it?

I don't think anybody disputes the fact that he had potential, because we witnessed it in games like those, but you'd be an idiot to think that he can ever reach his potential now. He has been really poor for a long time and evidently has never worked on the biggest issue in his game.

I hope he plays twos this weekend. Howard can come back through the VFL too. We're too nice to these guys, they aren't taking us anywhere and the quicker we move them on the better. Personally cannot wait to develop some more young guys in place of those two.

 

[George]

Hawthorn have named another tall forward in Brandon Ryan 200cm to debut. I wonder how we are going to match up in defence, as it was mentioned that Cordy trained with the forwards during the week. If Cordy plays foward perhaps Sharman is pushed back into defence? I am surprised they didnt bring Highmore in for some games...perhaps they are looking to bring Coffield back to play a 3rd tall role at some stage. Either way after losing Howard, we are going to be stretched in defence for the remainder.

Hawthorn only have the one ruckman this time round in Meek, so Cordy should be able to hold his own chopping out in the ruck.

After watching Carlton last night, tomorrow will be a good time to rediscover our form if we are any chance of winning enough games to play finals. Battle and Wilkie are going to have the hands full in the run home.

It won't matter if our midfield doesn't step up and avoid getting pantsed like they did to the Hawks last time.

 

[gringo2011]

You have to keep a few of the old heads around, maybe 1 or 2 on each line. Players like Seb and Membrey have invaluable experience, you'd keep them around for sure as role players. Its the guys 24-28 that need to be moved on, and it seems like the list management team is fully aware of that. Keep drafting well and don't reach for players that aren't there. We're on the right trajectory.

The list needs time not hard thinning and if anything we need some more cheap priced FAs and quality in that 22 to 26 range. I think we have a plan to play competitive footy while building the list which isn't the quick way but it keeps the bank manager happy. To me when I look at our list compared to others it looks like a bottom 4 list. North and Hawks are probably ahead of us in the rebuild but don't play older players as much. WCE are in a mess because they have bulk older players who aren't getting it done and have only just started the fall.

We need to keep adding quality players and ideally absolute stars any way possible. Chasing guys like Flanders seems to be a way to try to fast track some of the quality gulf repair.

To me our best prospects and players are:

Elite:
0

Top shelf:
Sinclair*
Wilkie
Steele
Marshall*

Next tier down:
Crouch
Webster
Higgins*

Under that:
Howard
Battle
Butler
Hill
Wood
Stocker
Cordy

Possibly still get something out of:
Hayes
Clark
Coffield*
Paton
Byrnes
Gresham
Membrey
Ross
Dmac
Jones
Billings

Developing youth:
King*
Wang-Mill*
Owens*
Windhager
Phillipou *
Caminiti
Sharman

Too early to tell:
Keeler*
Hotton
Van es
Adams
Heath
Mclennan


*Elite potential

 

[bergholt]

You'd be better to replace guys like Ross who look cooked and aren't going to be here in 4 years. I reckon the lack of continuity and playing together is part of the issue. Look at the Pies list and the bulk have played masses of footy together with a few prime kids helping bring some energy and POD.

Can't buy continuity, but the best way to get it is to have groups of similar-aged players coming through at the same time, and have at least some of them end up being decent or better. Planning to trickle in a few at the draft each year is a plan to fail imo, because you never get a big group to be your core. Hence I would add as many decent ones as possible in the age range below Max.

 

[gringo2011]

The Geelong game was almost a decade ago. Suns game was 2018 wasn't it?

I don't think anybody disputes the fact that he had potential, because we witnessed it in games like those, but you'd be an idiot to think that he can ever reach his potential now. He has been really poor for a long time and evidently has never worked on the biggest issue in his game.

I hope he plays twos this weekend. Howard can come back through the VFL too. We're too nice to these guys, they aren't taking us anywhere and the quicker we move them on the better. Personally cannot wait to develop some more young guys in place of those two.

The first half of last year was the best form of his career IMO. Looked on his way to elite. Had no preseason coming off a knee and then injured again and never got back to that form since.