Preview Round 19, 2023: St.Kilda v North Melbourne - Marvel Stadium, Sunday 23rd July, 4:40PM AEST

[Imtellingya]

Any word on why Jack Hayes is not playing for Sandy tomorrow? Hopefully just resting before punching the suitcase out of Sicily next week.

Hayes was rehabbing with King and Ross yesterday. Was running ok didn’t appear to be hampered at all. General soreness they say.

 

[DougalHoward]

Horrible kicking style. Literally everything wrong mechanically.

Read “he wanted to follow his friend Ian Stewart to Richmond” lol, became an umpire lol, tunes pianos lol.

A fellow wikipedia warrior

 

[bird_man]

Eagles are a shocking side and worse away from home.

Our game against them was the perfect storm - a team struggling to get back to earlier form against a team thrashed from pillar to post in the media after a record- breaking thrashing, playing back at home.

Was never going to end well.

We also played really poorly against them, there's no hiding from that.

 

[gringo2011]

Carlton doing to WCE what we should have, but couldn't because "the Eagles players didn't let us"...

Carlton has come good lately. I just hope it's all too late and they miss the 8 losing in the last round.

 

[sunny3193]

To be fair to those at poor clubs like ours who are tasked with building a list capable of sustainable success and winning silverware, it is the hardest task in Australian elite sport.

Lyon will experience exactly the same massive challenges as all before him and so I find it hard not to be cynical about how spectacular this could end this time as a result of the house of cards above Lyon of that being a structure created with a Captains pick which generally the Hail Mary of desperation approach and a move usually to protect oneself.

Sorry stav#4….not how successful Fortune 500 organisations are run.

Good coach…suspect structure

Would you do me a favour?
Please edit the second paragraph with punctuation so I can understand your point.
Currently, I’m not sure what that is.

 

[Mowman]

Would you do me a favour?
Please edit the second paragraph with punctuation so I can understand your point.
Currently, I’m not sure what that is.

Punctuation ain’t going to help you understand his point

 

[Cairnsman]

Would you do me a favour?
Please edit the second paragraph with punctuation so I can understand your point.
Currently, I’m not sure what that is.

Done

 

[Diehard Saint]

We also played really poorly against them, there's no hiding from that.

That’s what I said…” a team struggling…”

 

[stavro#4]

Was Ratten also gifted the excuse of injuries when our midfield was decimated in the 2nd half of last year? Again, double standards.

And it's not only the win loss we are judging on. The drop off was obvious around the North game when you again laughed at us for showing concerns in what was an awful win and what followed in the weeks after was obvious to all of us.

Clubs have worked out how to play against us and we haven't been able to find a decent way to get around it.

And for some reason we just can't find a way to get the best out of a lot of our best players, that has nothing to do with youth.

I'm not suggesting there aren't positives that are coming out but there are also many areas of concern and the improvement isn't there in quite a few areas, in fact we've gone backwards in some.

If you can't accept what has happened as real issues and just want to keep banging on about how good the standards are then maybe it's not worth the conversation.

Decimated midfield?

I actually can’t believe I’m biting.

But sure,

22/23

Crouch missed 1 / 0
Gresham missed 4/ 1
Steele missed 4 /3
Clark missed 14 /6
Jones missed 13 / 16
Ross missed 1 / 3
Dmac missed 14 / 18
Billings missed 16 /17

The current split is 67 2022
64 in 2023 * which will blow out well over once the season ends with the Ross and Dmac injuries alone.

In 2022 and 2023 it would be hard to argue against that Steel/Ross/Gresham/Crouch would be our main stay mids

In 2022 The only time 2 or more missed the same game was in round 23 2022 Gresham (knee) and Crouch (suspended) - when the season was dead by the time we played Sydney.

Yet to happen in 2023.

Throw in the king and Membrey injuries on top in 2023.

And you blokes are acting like wet wipes screaming we are going backwards that this has been the same if not worse than Rattens time.

There was no point in Rattens tenure we played a match with the 4th youngest match day side in the comp.

There was no point in Rattens time we played 5 20 year old footballers at AFL level at once. We have consistently used 4-5 every week under Ross.

There is no argument against what we have achieved if we have matched Rattens side with significantly less talent and experience on the park.

Has the last 10 weeks been good? No.

But when the stats literally say the downfall is inside 50 conversion to scores. Then it’s no wonder when you’re kicking it to 17 games Caminiti and 20 year old Mitch Owens.

We will be even better for this in 12 months time. But the argument we have gone backwards is currently laughable - when we are equal in W/L to 12 months ago and are doing it with a side that is worse off.

 

[Cairnsman]

Punctuation ain’t going to help you understand his point

I actually have been taking the punctuation out to reach your "demographic" but if you are all good with full stops and commas I can put them back into my prose and make you feel included. But just in case I'll still use pictures and punctuation until you are comfortable.

 

[sunny3193]

Done

Thanks.

 

[Premium]

Decimated midfield?

I actually can’t believe I’m biting.

But sure,

22/23

Crouch missed 1 / 0
Gresham missed 4/ 1
Steele missed 4 /3
Clark missed 14 /6
Jones missed 13 / 16
Ross missed 1 / 3
Dmac missed 14 / 18
Billings missed 16 /17

The current split is 67 2022
64 in 2023 * which will blow out well over once the season ends with the Ross and Dmac injuries alone.

In 2022 and 2023 it would be hard to argue against that Steel/Ross/Gresham/Crouch would be our main stay mids

In 2022 The only time 2 or more missed the same game was in round 23 2022 Gresham (knee) and Crouch (suspended) - when the season was dead by the time we played Sydney.

Yet to happen in 2023.

Throw in the king and Membrey injuries on top in 2023.

And you blokes are acting like wet wipes screaming we are going backwards that this has been the same if not worse than Rattens time.

There was no point in Rattens tenure we played a match with the 4th youngest match day side in the comp.

There was no point in Rattens time we played 5 20 year old footballers at AFL level at once. We have consistently used 4-5 every week under Ross.

There is no argument against what we have achieved if we have matched Rattens side with significantly less talent and experience on the park.

Has the last 10 weeks been good? No.

But when the stats literally say the downfall is inside 50 conversion to scores. Then it’s no wonder when you’re kicking it to 17 games Caminiti and 20 year old Mitch Owens.

We will be even better for this in 12 months time. But the argument we have gone backwards is currently laughable - when we are equal in W/L to 12 months ago and are doing it with a side that is worse off.

What concerns me is the fact since Lyon has coached Steele has been shocking - of course he has had excuses , but Gresham has gone backwards after having you could say his best season last year - just those 2 players with there loss of form have killed our midfield.
And with this 2 being a vital cog to our midfield you can see why we have gone off the rails because we haven't had anyone else who could step in and give us some production.

Lyon not having his best player performing and a guy who was touted to be one of our best players has left Ross with few options.

 

[Cairnsman]

And for some reason we just can't find a way to get the best out of a lot of our best players, that has nothing to do with youth.

I recon if you do a search there will be a million posts claiming Lyon gets the best out of players and improves them, and is a great motivator, probably a half a million of those would have been by stav#4 in the pre season. But here we are playing arguably a worse brand of football than we were over the past few years.

where is the improvement, and where is the motivation?

 

[bird_man]

Decimated midfield?

I actually can’t believe I’m biting.

But sure,

22/23

Crouch missed 1 / 0
Gresham missed 4/ 1
Steele missed 4 /3
Clark missed 14 /6
Jones missed 13 / 16
Ross missed 1 / 3
Dmac missed 14 / 18
Billings missed 16 /17

The current split is 67 2022
64 in 2023 * which will blow out well over once the season ends with the Ross and Dmac injuries alone.

In 2022 and 2023 it would be hard to argue against that Steel/Ross/Gresham/Crouch would be our main stay mids

In 2022 The only time 2 or more missed the same game was in round 23 2022 Gresham (knee) and Crouch (suspended) - when the season was dead by the time we played Sydney.

Yet to happen in 2023.

Throw in the king and Membrey injuries on top in 2023.

And you blokes are acting like wet wipes screaming we are going backwards that this has been the same if not worse than Rattens time.

There was no point in Rattens tenure we played a match with the 4th youngest match day side in the comp.

There was no point in Rattens time we played 5 20 year old footballers at AFL level at once. We have consistently used 4-5 every week under Ross.

There is no argument against what we have achieved if we have matched Rattens side with significantly less talent and experience on the park.

Has the last 10 weeks been good? No.

But when the stats literally say the downfall is inside 50 conversion to scores. Then it’s no wonder when you’re kicking it to 17 games Caminiti and 20 year old Mitch Owens.

We will be even better for this in 12 months time. But the argument we have gone backwards is currently laughable - when we are equal in W/L to 12 months ago and are doing it with a side that is worse off.

You are right, there was no point that we went in with that many 20 year olds in one game under Ratten, and there is one simple reason for that.

We almost completely ignored the draft for two years running and had zero good kids coming through until last year, where Ratten was quite happy to play Nas, Owens and Windhager whenever they were even close to deserving.

The fact is though, the kids are outperforming most of the average mature players we've been playing for the past few years so as much as you are trying to make it sound like it should be a hindrance, it really hasn't been. Not even close.

Yes, not having King is clearly a negative but let's not forget for the 6 weeks he played were ordinary for the majority of it.

If you genuinely think King is the only issues behind our lack of ability to score I think you are blind my friend.

You can't just pretend that there aren't some serious issues with the way we are playing of late. Issues going beyond just personal.

 

[Cairnsman]

You are right, there was no point that we went in with that many 20 year olds in one game under Ratten, and there is one simple reason for that.

We almost completely ignored the draft for two years running and had zero good kids coming through until last year, where Ratten was quite happy to play Nas, Owens and Windhager whenever they were even close to deserving.

The fact is though, the kids are outperforming most of the average mature players we've been playing for the past few years so as much as you are trying to make it sound like it should be a hindrance, it really hasn't been. Not even close.

Yes, not having King is clearly a negative but let's not forget for the 6 weeks he played were ordinary for the majority of it.

If you genuinely think King is the only issues behind our lack of ability to score I think you are blind my friend.

You can't just pretend that there aren't some serious issues with the way we are playing of late. Issues going beyond just personal.

It's mostly list quality, in fact it's all about list quality, but the lack of evolution in the offensive side of Lyons game plan is concerning however it might be he has no option but to deploy a game plan that stops disaster and when/if he can procure some quality to the list he can start to deploy some offensive flare.

For the time being he gets let off the hook because clearly he has no tools in the tool kit.

 

[Diehard Saint]

It's mostly list quality, in fact it's all about list quality, but the lack of evolution in the offensive side of Lyons game plan is concerning however it might be he has no option but to deploy a game plan that stops disaster and when/if he can procure some quality to the list he can start to deploy some offensive flare.

For the time being he gets let off the hook because clearly he has no tools in the tool kit.

Pretty sure this is exactly it. Thanks to our less than spectacular midfield.
And for the most part it’s working - only had one blowout, against the Crows, this season.

Can only work with the cattle he has.

 

[gringo2011]

You are right, there was no point that we went in with that many 20 year olds in one game under Ratten, and there is one simple reason for that.

We almost completely ignored the draft for two years running and had zero good kids coming through until last year, where Ratten was quite happy to play Nas, Owens and Windhager whenever they were even close to deserving.

The fact is though, the kids are outperforming most of the average mature players we've been playing for the past few years so as much as you are trying to make it sound like it should be a hindrance, it really hasn't been. Not even close.

Yes, not having King is clearly a negative but let's not forget for the 6 weeks he played were ordinary for the majority of it.

If you genuinely think King is the only issues behind our lack of ability to score I think you are blind my friend.

You can't just pretend that there aren't some serious issues with the way we are playing of late. Issues going beyond just personal.

Membrey and King were our 2 highest scoring players for years, Snags third and Gresham has been one of our highest scorers but he's turned to s**t too.

It's not one player, it's a whole lot of them in the same zone.

 

[bird_man]

It's mostly list quality, in fact it's all about list quality, but the lack of evolution in the offensive side of Lyons game plan is concerning however it might be he has no option but to deploy a game plan that stops disaster and when/if he can procure some quality to the list he can start to deploy some offensive flare.

For the time being he gets let off the hook because clearly he has no tools in the tool kit.

List quality is obviously playing a role, as it did last year

It's concerning that some our best and experienced players are struggling though. If we were able to get what is at least expected frok those guys wed have a lot less issues.

 

[BrutThough]

It's mostly list quality, in fact it's all about list quality, but the lack of evolution in the offensive side of Lyons game plan is concerning however it might be he has no option but to deploy a game plan that stops disaster and when/if he can procure some quality to the list he can start to deploy some offensive flare.

For the time being he gets let off the hook because clearly he has no tools in the tool kit.

While the list clearly needs work, it feels a bit of a cop out to put all the blame on it. If it had enough quality to get us to 8 and 4 in the first half of the year, then it has enough quality to get the 4-5 wins in the 2nd half to qualify for finals.

 

[bird_man]

Membrey and King were our 2 highest scoring players for years, Snags third and Gresham has been one of our highest scorers but he's turned to s**t too.

It's not one player, it's a whole lot of them in the same zone.

We had a 6 week period with 3 of those 4 players and we were very ordinary for most of it.

In that 6 week period we had an average total score of 78. That included 3 games against bottom 6 sides.

Tell me again that it's all about personal...

 

[gringo2011]

List quality is obviously playing a role, as it did last year

It's concerning that some our best and experienced players are struggling though. If we were able to get what is at least expected frok those guys wed have a lot less issues.

I think part of it is that with a bulk of kids the older guys take on much more of the load and get targeted more. The forward line is still the biggest issue and part of that is delivery. A bigger part is just the lack of experience though. Butler was the only proper forward that had any real experience last week. Guys like Hammer hadn't even played a VFL game before being thrust into the forward line.

 

[gringo2011]

We had a 6 week period with 3 of those 4 players and we were very ordinary for most of it.

In that 6 week period we had an average total score of 78. That included 3 games against bottom 6 sides.

Tell me again that it's all about personal...

King started well but fell away when the mids started going down and delivery got worse. I think it's hard to judge anything the coaches are doing off the list we are putting up. They are awful to watch but so was Ratts side after the half way point of last year. As soon as we are exposed to injury we start to fall apart.

 

[bird_man]

King started well but fell away when the mids started going down and delivery got worse. I think it's hard to judge anything the coaches are doing off the list we are putting up. They are awful to watch but so was Ratts side after the half way point of last year. As soon as we are exposed to injury we start to fall apart.

Agree the way the midfield are bringing the footy in is the biggest issue which is exactly my point.

We were exposed with injury early in the year when we were 8-4.

Outside of a boost from some quality kids we have coming through we just haven’t shown improvement unfortunately. Hopefully we can get back to what looked like a good system early in the year and get some form out of our mature players

 

[Cairnsman]

While the list clearly needs work, it feels a bit of a cop out to put all the blame on it. If it had enough quality to get us to 8 and 4 in the first half of the year, then it has enough quality to get the 4-5 wins in the 2nd half to qualify for finals.

I think there are two factors at play for our early season performance, the sugar hit from the new coach, and a dearth of clubs from 5th to 15th with similar list quality issues. Our performance with comparison to other seasons say before 2020 would have us sitting in the bottom 4. Even Lyon made reference to the bottom 4 with regards to our performance.

 

[gringo2011]

Agree the way the midfield are bringing the footy in is the biggest issue which is exactly my point.

We were exposed with injury early in the year when we were 8-4.

Outside of a boost from some quality kids we have coming through we just haven’t shown improvement unfortunately.

The midfield was good then. Ross was looking great, Steele was flying, Wood was the best wing in footy, Crouch was flying. Even Byrnes had 27 touches in round one. Gresham had 17 touches and 2 goals. Hill was flying.

Form and injury has sent them back to earth with a thud. Even Owens who looked like he was pushing for the rising star has been patchy since the bye and Hammer has been okay more than good since early in the year. Losing Snags and Hill types who carry more load than you realise make a big difference to our structure. We haven't had much continuity for a while.