Preview Round 20, 2023: Hawthorn v St.Kilda - Marvel Stadium, Sunday 30th July, 1:10PM AEST

[jwikked]

One thing is for sure and that's I bet I could go back and check all the posters slagging gresh that they were loving him in games like the Geelong game or when he got us over the line against the Sun's game a few years back, but feel free to throw crap

Bit like talking Billings up as a star because of that game against the Western Bulldogs all those years ago. Gresham clearly had a lot of talent, as evidenced by those games you're referencing. For one reason or another, he didn't take that talent anywhere.

It's time we stopped letting these guys coast by on their output from years ago, and instead judge them on what they're doing now. Gresham isn't anywhere near it and it seems to me like he'll never get there. Same as Billings. I hope I'm wrong, but I think Hunter Clark is on that path now.

 

[beside the seaside]

The list needs time not hard thinning and if anything we need some more cheap priced FAs and quality in that 22 to 26 range. I think we have a plan to play competitive footy while building the list which isn't the quick way but it keeps the bank manager happy. To me when I look at our list compared to others it looks like a bottom 4 list. North and Hawks are probably ahead of us in the rebuild but don't play older players as much. WCE are in a mess because they have bulk older players who aren't getting it done and have only just started the fall.

We need to keep adding quality players and ideally absolute stars any way possible. Chasing guys like Flanders seems to be a way to try to fast track some of the quality gulf repair.

To me our best prospects and players are:

Elite:
0

Top shelf:
Sinclair*
Wilkie
Steele
Marshall*

Next tier down:
Crouch
Webster
Higgins*

Under that:
Howard
Battle
Butler
Hill
Wood
Stocker
Cordy

Possibly still get something out of:
Hayes
Clark
Coffield*
Paton
Byrnes
Gresham
Membrey
Ross
Dmac
Jones
Billings

Developing youth:
King*
Wang-Mill*
Owens*
Windhager
Phillipou *
Caminiti
Sharman

Too early to tell:
Keeler*
Hotton
Van es
Adams
Heath
Mclennan


*Elite potential

It always comes down to the kids doesn't it. Until a group of kids step up into the elite bracket we are pissing in the wind. Not long ago it was Dunstan, Acres, Gresh et al. Then Clark, Coff were going to do it. Now we have a new group that we need to take the reins.

One thing I think we need to look at is getting in guys that are heavily driven. People that train their arses off and will leave no stone unturned to be the best. That's the one thing that sets apart this new group with Owens, Windy and Pou. I hope we keep adding guys like that because I feel like we've had lots of players that have been willing to coast a bit and probably haven't had the coaching or leadership group to drive them to be fair.

 

[gringo2011]

Can't buy continuity, but the best way to get it is to have groups of similar-aged players coming through at the same time, and have at least some of them end up being decent or better. Planning to trickle in a few at the draft each year is a plan to fail imo, because you never get a big group to be your core. Hence I would add as many decent ones as possible in the age range below Max.

GWS and GC have proven that youth model still needs a group of older guides and the better that older group is the better and quicker your kids come on.

Part of the issue for us is that the older guys have never really been great since the Riewoldt generation left and the mid tier offer promise and never arrive partly because they are never taught from older guys and we had no idea how two draft or trade.

The scary thing is that middle age group seems to have been another fail. Battle, Byrnes, Clark, Coffield, Paton, Highmore, Gresham, Bytel. Battle is a GOP or just above it. Gresham was on track but now looks like he'd be lucky to return the investment we put in. If that youth group under don't come on it really will be a full on ground up rebuild when Steele, Marshall and Sinclair types retire in a few years.

 

[Leigh58]

I don't really see what the point of playing Bytel was. One game on a wing and back out for Byrnes. I don't have an issue with Byrnes playing, but what was the hope last week for Bytel? That he'd get 30 possessions in a role he never plays? One of the first selection choices that I have found truly illogical this year.

During RTB's first stint as coach between 2007 and 2011, I had a strong belief and agreement with most of the teams selected on a weekly basis.
This year I am often bewildered about the selections, even the criteria behind choosing the teams, especially in relation to those returning from injury.
On an positive note however, at least for this supporter, no players seem to be liberally granted mental health or personal leave at their / the clubs discretion.

 

[gringo2011]

It always comes down to the kids doesn't it. Until a group of kids step up into the elite bracket we are pissing in the wind. Not long ago it was Dunstan, Acres, Gresh et al. Then Clark, Coff were going to do it. Now we have a new group that we need to take the reins.

One thing I think we need to look at is getting in guys that are heavily driven. People that train their arses off and will leave no stone unturned to be the best. That's the one thing that sets apart this new group with Owens, Windy and Pou. I hope we keep adding guys like that because I feel like we've had lots of players that have been willing to coast a bit and probably haven't had the coaching or leadership group to drive them to be fair.

I don't care if people believe it or not but I used to get down to the club and meet the players. That generation Trout brought in was the politest, nicest bunch you could find in footy. I think we had a nice boys policy and ignored anyone that looked driven. We hated Petracca because he was too confident and took Paddy who was the sweetest kid you'd ever meet.

Gresham was probably the only one with a bit of FIGJAM.

 

[gringo2011]

During ROB's first stint as coach between 2007 and 2011, I had a strong belief and agreement with most of the teams selected on a weekly basis.
This year I am often bewildered about the selections, even the criteria behind choosing the teams, especially in relation to those returning from injury.
On an positive note however, at least for this supporter, no players seem to be liberally granted mental health or personal leave at their / the clubs discretion.

He's barely had a few spare players to bring in every week though to be fair. Often the only available players have been players like Highmore, Campbell and Bytel. We were hardly ignoring a pile of elite talent in reserve.

 

[George]

The first half of last year was the best form of his career IMO. Looked on his way to elite. Had no preseason coming off a knee and then injured again and never got back to that form since.

Inconsistent players will do that

 

[kernelT]

Is George’s mate going to be the sub?

 

[CursingFijian]

I don't care if people believe it or not but I used to get down to the club and meet the players. That generation Trout brought in was the politest, nicest bunch you could find in footy. I think we had a nice boys policy and ignored anyone that looked driven. We hated Petracca because he was too confident and took Paddy who was the sweetest kid you'd ever meet.

Gresham was probably the only one with a bit of FIGJAM.

Seb Ross is getting angrier as he gets on.

 

[PoppedCorn]

Don’t think we win again this year

When we can't convincingly put the eagles and roos away, I have to agree.

Agree
Lose Sunday and i think that's it we
Win and we might fluke one more maybe
For me we either play finals or make sure we finish 12 13 th

Surely Cordy has to play back. There’s no way we can finish the year with Battle and Wilkie as our key defenders.

Your namesake can play back as well as fwd.

Unleash the Hayes next week please

 

[gringo2011]

Is George’s mate going to be the sub?

I think Dard prefers to be the master.

 

[gringo2011]

Agree
Lose Sunday and i think that's it we
Win and we might fluke one more maybe
For me we either play finals or make sure we finish 12 13 th





Your namesake can play back as well as fwd.

Unleash the Hayes next week please

I reckon Richmond are s**t too, look at their recent form line. Could hardly beat up on the cripple sides either, it could legit be the overrated side cripple fight of the year.

 

[PoppedCorn]

Yesh if we win that extra I would've said the tiges game prob would of be been it

Let's worry about Hawks first
Fmd mids have to step up a bit this time

 

[MUFASA12]

Gonna be hilarious when we roll Carlton next week after their big win…we have an 80% win record against them in the last ten years and I can see them coming into this game taking us lightly and we roll them again.

 

[mad-saint-guy]

While we can’t trade everyone, I’m landing closer to a rebuild or significant replumbing. We ain’t winning a flag in the next few years solely built around Steele/Sincs plus really improved younger guys turning into stars. That’s not going to be enough. Those younger guys plus a whole new set of young guns is our only chance. I want a flag, not being competitive. The Paddy/Billings draft era and then the Hill trade era have both slaughtered our near term.

I think you're right. We've got a lot of semi decent players who aren't going to take us to the next level.

Sinclair, Wilkie, Marshall, King and Steele are our best players. Then we have a few solid B graders in Crouch, Higgins and Hill plus some genuinely exciting young talent in Owens, Windy, Wangmil and Pou. But then we have a whole lot of C graders and youngish players who are struggling to take the next step. It's a tough spot to be in but I'd be moving the likes of Ross, Membrey, Billings and Webster on. Gresham, Clark and Coffield are all unfulfilled talents who could potentially make it but it's looking less likely by the year. We could move any of them on as well

 

[StFly]

He's barely had a few spare players to bring in every week though to be fair. Often the only available players have been players like Highmore, Campbell and Bytel. We were hardly ignoring a pile of elite talent in reserve.

Keep saying, if Highmore was a forward and if Coff was a forward, we'd have more player rotations as it's our forwards that have been decimated, given they are intercept defenders I am just waiting for the game to pass them by so we can sit on them and sell for a sneaky 4th rounder to bundle somewhere.

Eventually, we'll get to a point where we cut losses and cull the list of potential type that have spent half a decade doing SFA, but we're probably not there yet.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

I won't work because you need players to bring through the youth. Pay the best drafting and list management team you can find what ever it costs if you want to rebuild because burning down the house to clean the kitchen makes you feel better while you are watching it go up but then you are even more ****ed than before.

The biggest issue is the older crew not being top quality at the moment, not the youth. I think we have to keep going on the same path and just be patient. Trying to make it faster ruined any chance of moving forward. Systematic and sensible planning will do more than any destructive actions.

I’m not saying that you would trade everyone. But we do need to find means for extra first rounders, whether salary cap wrangling, finding an offer that would fit the GC first, etc. Not easy, I understand that.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

I don't care if people believe it or not but I used to get down to the club and meet the players. That generation Trout brought in was the politest, nicest bunch you could find in footy. I think we had a nice boys policy and ignored anyone that looked driven. We hated Petracca because he was too confident and took Paddy who was the sweetest kid you'd ever meet.

Gresham was probably the only one with a bit of FIGJAM.

Agree. While harsh - and probably a bit simplistic - I think that’s another key factor in the whole mix why we are where are.

 

[gringo2011]

I’m not saying that you would trade everyone. But we do need to find means for extra first rounders, whether salary cap wrangling, finding an offer that would fit the GC first, etc. Not easy, I understand that.

We haven't got any one we could afford to lose that would get that kind of pick IMO. Marshall is probably the only one you could potentially replace with a cheaper lesser quality type and hp to use that capital on a kid but then if they take 4 years to develop we are worse off for a while. Massive risk.

This lot of kids is coming on a lot faster than a lot of our past kids due to a better pool of older guys carrying the load...well that and they are better talents too. Usually kids don't peak until their mid 20s.

To me we keep drafting well, try to pick the eyes out of free agency and try to get some ready made talent out of sides dropping down or interstate sides getting drained.

 

[Saintpav]

		W	L	D	%
1.	Collingwood	20	3	0	132.2%
2.	Port Adelaide	18	5	0	115.7%
3.	Brisbane Lions	17	6	0	131.0%
4.	Melbourne	17	6	0	127.9%
5.	Geelong	13	9	1	121.5%
6.	Carlton	13	9	1	115.3%
7.	Western Bulldogs	13	10	0	108.4%
8.	GWS	13	10	0	103.2%
9.	St Kilda	12	11	0	103.1%
10.	Adelaide	11	12	0	112.1%
11.	Essendon	11	12	0	99.0%
12.	Sydney	10	12	1	107.8%
13.	Richmond	10	12	1	98.5%
14.	Gold Coast	9	14	0	88.6%
15.	Fremantle	8	15	0	85.6%
16.	Hawthorn	6	17	0	78.9%
17.	North Melbourne	2	21	0	66.5%
18.	West Coast	2	21	0	52.7%

QF1: COLLINGWOOD v Melbourne
QF2: PORT ADELAIDE v Brisbane Lions
EF1: GEELONG v GWS
EF2: Carlton v WESTERN BULLDOGS

SF1: MELBOURNE v Geelong
SF2: BRISBANE LIONS v Western Bulldogs

PF1: COLLINGWOOD v Brisbane Lions
PF2: PORT ADELAIDE v Melbourne

 

[Premium]

Whatever gives us the best shot at a flag. Because what we’ve been doing for a decade is half measures and protecting competitiveness sort of b/s.

We have already gutted the team and now we at the stage of development with guys like King , Higgins , Clark , Coffield , Battle are at the age to show something - King and Higgins have already shown they can change a game in 15mins - Clark and Coffield just need to stay on the park and Battle is just getting settled into his position / which is his 2nd yr he has not been tossed around from wing , Forward then add on Milera , Owens , Windhager , Camaniti who look they might be very good players.
On top of that guys like Sharman , Stocker have shown they are very capable.
Plus with Heath , Keller , Hotton , Adams , Els , Mclenan are all to young to put a line through and a few are very good.
And who knows how Allison will go he looks like a different player now.
That is 18 players who are in development our at the age to show something - to gut the best players in the list to get more youth will just kill the development of the kids we already have.
For sure clean out a few players and bring in some more good talent for sure but anyone good must be kept - we have enough players who can be used as trade bait - Billings , Ross , Membery , Gresham have all replacements and guys like McKenzie , Campbell , Bytel , Peris , Highmore could all be moved on at the end of the year - even 7 of these players moved on is a pretty big cull.

The list needs time not hard thinning and if anything we need some more cheap priced FAs and quality in that 22 to 26 range. I think we have a plan to play competitive footy while building the list which isn't the quick way but it keeps the bank manager happy. To me when I look at our list compared to others it looks like a bottom 4 list. North and Hawks are probably ahead of us in the rebuild but don't play older players as much. WCE are in a mess because they have bulk older players who aren't getting it done and have only just started the fall.

We need to keep adding quality players and ideally absolute stars any way possible. Chasing guys like Flanders seems to be a way to try to fast track some of the quality gulf repair.

To me our best prospects and players are:

Elite:
0

Top shelf:
Sinclair*
Wilkie
Steele
Marshall*

Next tier down:
Crouch
Webster
Higgins*

Under that:
Howard
Battle
Butler
Hill
Wood
Stocker
Cordy

Possibly still get something out of:
Hayes
Clark
Coffield*
Paton
Byrnes
Gresham
Membrey
Ross
Dmac
Jones
Billings

Developing youth:
King*
Wang-Mill*
Owens*
Windhager
Phillipou *
Caminiti
Sharman

Too early to tell:
Keeler*
Hotton
Van es
Adams
Heath
Mclennan


*Elite potential

great post

 

[SaintsSeptember]

We haven't got any one we could afford to lose that would get that kind of pick IMO. Marshall is probably the only one you could potentially replace with a cheaper lesser quality type and hp to use that capital on a kid but then if they take 4 years to develop we are worse off for a while. Massive risk.

This lot of kids is coming on a lot faster than a lot of our past kids due to a better pool of older guys carrying the load...well that and they are better talents too. Usually kids don't peak until their mid 20s.

To me we keep drafting well, try to pick the eyes out of free agency and try to get some ready made talent out of sides dropping down or interstate sides getting drained.

Four years? Its exactly what we did with McEvoy.
Four years and the rest .

 

[gringo2011]

		W	L	D	%
1.	Collingwood	20	3	0	132.2%
2.	Port Adelaide	18	5	0	115.7%
3.	Brisbane Lions	17	6	0	131.0%
4.	Melbourne	17	6	0	127.9%
5.	Geelong	13	9	1	121.5%
6.	Carlton	13	9	1	115.3%
7.	Western Bulldogs	13	10	0	108.4%
8.	GWS	13	10	0	103.2%
9.	St Kilda	12	11	0	103.1%
10.	Adelaide	11	12	0	112.1%
11.	Essendon	11	12	0	99.0%
12.	Sydney	10	12	1	107.8%
13.	Richmond	10	12	1	98.5%
14.	Gold Coast	9	14	0	88.6%
15.	Fremantle	8	15	0	85.6%
16.	Hawthorn	6	17	0	78.9%
17.	North Melbourne	2	21	0	66.5%
18.	West Coast	2	21	0	52.7%

QF1: COLLINGWOOD v Melbourne
QF2: PORT ADELAIDE v Brisbane Lions
EF1: GEELONG v GWS
EF2: Carlton v WESTERN BULLDOGS

SF1: MELBOURNE v Geelong
SF2: BRISBANE LIONS v Western Bulldogs

PF1: COLLINGWOOD v Brisbane Lions
PF2: PORT ADELAIDE v Melbourne

We probably have to win against the Hawks and Tigers to play finals now and hope results go our way or knock off one of Geelong, Carlton or Brisbane. No-one in competition with us has an easy run either and it could come down to the last round to see who makes the 8. So many results hinge on other games.

 

[CaptainRisky]

The Geelong game was almost a decade ago. Suns game was 2018 wasn't it?

I don't think anybody disputes the fact that he had potential, because we witnessed it in games like those, but you'd be an idiot to think that he can ever reach his potential now. He has been really poor for a long time and evidently has never worked on the biggest issue in his game.

I hope he plays twos this weekend. Howard can come back through the VFL too. We're too nice to these guys, they aren't taking us anywhere and the quicker we move them on the better. Personally cannot wait to develop some more young guys in place of those two.

Im not saying keep him , all im saying is there is no need for the sh1t comments towards him , he may have stuff going on in his private life that we don't know about , who knows

 

[Saintpav]

We probably have to win against the Hawks and Tigers to play finals now and hope results go our way or knock off one of Geelong, Carlton or Brisbane. No-one in competition with us has an easy run either and it could come down to the last round to see who makes the 8. So many results hinge on other games.

Had those as wins and losing the rest.

With the other games, I just went on form and HGA.