2019 NBA Offseason Thread - Free Agency starts 6 p.m. ET on June 30

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Dallas offered Noel a 70m deal. Paul advised to reject and play for a better one.

He’s gotten 2 near minimum deals since.

 

[Timo pez]

Westbrook is a better player than Paul though and Paul and Harden don’t mix. How that’s defined as desperation escapes me. The opportunity arose when PG left OKC, otherwise Westbrook was never on the table. They found a taker for Paul’s contract which was going to be the backbone of any move they made. I’d say desperation was when they signed Melo at the start of last season.

Interested to see how it plays out. It feels like Houston would take the opportunity to add any big name player that comes available to appease Harden and try and get some successful return out of the Harden era, regardless of the actual fit. Harden & Russ seem keen to reunite which is the main thing so maybe it WILL work.

 

[vanders]

 

[Dez!]

Westbrook gets to now drive to the basket with a floor spread with 3 point shooters (which was his main problem in OKC). Not sure how that doesn't work. Houston's 3 point shooting game plan actually fits with Westbrook (as long as he's not shooting them).

Yes, Westbrook has had a bunch of knee surgeries, but you failed to note he has missed only 14 games in the last 4 seasons compared to Paul who missed 14 games just last season (57 games total in the last 4 seasons.) So weird to talk about Westbrook's injury without talking about Paul who is as injury prone as anyone and also 3 years older than Westbrook (Westbrook also hasn't missed a playoff game compared to Paul who has).

I'm Westbrook's biggest critic, but I don't hate this trade.

He gets to drive to the basket? The NBA playing with two balls now? Good luck getting the ball out of Harden's hands.

Westbrook's game is built on athleticism, it's not just about missing games but how his game will age and like it has been in recent years he's gotten worse.

 

[fidstar]

He gets to drive to the basket? The NBA playing with two balls now? Good luck getting the ball out of Harden's hands.

Westbrook's game is built on athleticism, it's not just about missing games but how his game will age and like it has been in recent years he's gotten worse.

I'm not sure what your point is though.

All I said was that Westbrook's contract is better than Paul's. I'm not sitting here saying Westbrook is awesome. No one other than spot up shooters fit with Harden's current style. Maybe Houston will realize that isn't enough to win championships and make some changes to their offense.

I'm sure it's the general consensus in that Westbrook is currently>Paul and 3 years younger. There's a reason Houston had to sweeten the deal and add in draft picks. So, its difficult to say that Paul's contract > Westbrook's contract when they had to do that.

You bring up that Westbrook has gotten worse, but so has Paul. And Paul has had more injury problems, is older and much less likely to get over them.

I agree that Westbrook's game won't age well. But, as I've said, I'm not saying he's awesome. But it's still better than having Paul.

 

[Dez!]

I'm not sure what your point is though.

All I said was that Westbrook's contract is better than Paul's. I'm not sitting here saying Westbrook is awesome. No one other than spot up shooters fit with Harden's current style. Maybe Houston will realize that isn't enough to win championships and make some changes to their offense.

I'm sure it's the general consensus in that Westbrook is currently>Paul and 3 years younger. There's a reason Houston had to sweeten the deal and add in draft picks. So, its difficult to say that Paul's contract > Westbrook's contract when they had to do that.

You bring up that Westbrook has gotten worse, but so has Paul. And Paul has had more injury problems, is older and much less likely to get over them.

I agree that Westbrook's game won't age well. But, as I've said, I'm not saying he's awesome. But it's still better than having Paul.

You said it improved their "championship equity", it doesn't because Westbrook is an even worse fit skill-wise and IQ-wise than Paul.

Paul has injury problems yes but he still has a game that revolves around his skill and IQ, not his athleticism which is why his injury problems aren't harmful to his game.

 

[peternorth]

On?

Your clippers

 

[Dez!]

That's pretty bang on.

 

[Jimmy_the_Gent]

So Chris Paul went to the Rockets for Beverley, Lou Williams, Montrezl Harrell, 4 other nothing players and a 2018 first round pick (eventually traded for Gallinari and used by Atlanta).

The Rockets then traded Paul, 2 first rounders (2024 (1-4 protected) and 2026) and 2 pick swaps (2021 and 2025) for Westbrook.

When you add it all up, Westbrook cost the Rockets: Williams, Beverley, Harrell, 3 first round picks and 2 pick swaps.... and 4 nothing players.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

And the kicker is that all 3 are well suited for Harden-ball. They gave up on Williams and Harrell far too soon.

 

[fidstar]

You said it improved their "championship equity", it doesn't because Westbrook is an even worse fit skill-wise and IQ-wise than Paul.

Yes, because Westbrook is just a better player than Paul. Just like right now LAC would take a fit Durant over a fit Klay Thompson. Fit wise Klay is better. But you take the talent every day of the week and make it work.

And being out on the court does influence championship equity, something that is more likely to happen with Westbrook than Paul.

Paul has injury problems yes but he still has a game that revolves around his skill and IQ, not his athleticism which is why his injury problems aren't harmful to his game.

Well he generally missing 15-20 games a year, as well as the 2 and a half most important games in Houston's last 30 years. So I'd say that his injury issues have had a big influence on his team.

And you are underrating how much CP3 dropped off last year (his eFG% dropped off over 4% while averaging a career low in points).

I say this as someone who like CP3 much more than Westbrook.

 

[BG32]

Your clippers

If Harkless and the other 2 dudes we got stay healthy we’ve gotta be in with a chance.

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

Joakim Noah is getting recruited by the New Zealand Breakers, league sources told Marc Stein of The New York Times.
The Breakers, who play in the National Basketball League, is owned by Noah's former college teammate Matt Walsh.
The 34-year-old Noah is seen as a "dream signing" for the Breakers.

 

[stewie griffen]

Joakim Noah is getting recruited by the New Zealand Breakers, league sources told Marc Stein of The New York Times.
The Breakers, who play in the National Basketball League, is owned by Noah's former college teammate Matt Walsh.
The 34-year-old Noah is seen as a "dream signing" for the Breakers.

The new whakamana express...

 

[Dez!]

Yes, because Westbrook is just a better player than Paul. Just like right now LAC would take a fit Durant over a fit Klay Thompson. Fit wise Klay is better. But you take the talent every day of the week and make it work.

And being out on the court does influence championship equity, something that is more likely to happen with Westbrook than Paul.



Well he generally missing 15-20 games a year, as well as the 2 and a half most important games in Houston's last 30 years. So I'd say that his injury issues have had a big influence on his team.

And you are underrating how much CP3 dropped off last year (his eFG% dropped off over 4% while averaging a career low in points).

I say this as someone who like CP3 much more than Westbrook.

Your analogy with Durant and Klay doesn't work because both Durant and Klay can play off ball and both fit with anyone, Westbrook doesn't fit with Harden unless Harden decides he's comfortable regulating himself to spot up shooter.

It's going to be a hilarious cluster****.

 

[fidstar]

Your analogy with Durant and Klay doesn't work because both Durant and Klay can play off ball and both fit with anyone, Westbrook doesn't fit with Harden unless Harden decides he's comfortable regulating himself to spot up shooter.

It's going to be a hilarious clusterfu**.

My analogy was you take talent over fit and make it work.

I specifically used Durant for LAC because they already have two star SFs, but I could have easily said 2016 LeBron.

 

[randyzany]

Well done in getting a lengthy LeBron bash in a topic totally unrelated to him but most of your post is absolute trash.

To insinuate that LeBron doesn't have a high bballiq is embarrassing.
To argue that jordan got his team mates involved a s**t load more than LeBron is just incorrect (lebron 35.8/31.5 ast%/usg% vs jordan 24.9/33.3 ast%/usg%)
LeBron's play making skills basic haha... just embarrassing.

You got chill, I'm a Kawhi fan and whenever I listen to Skip Bayless rant about Number 2 and his supposed moral and basketball failings I can't help but laugh. I've found that the only time criticism seems to strike a nerve is when there's significant amount of truth behind it and LeBron fans have a tendency to fly off the handle when his LeBronball system is put under the microscope so you gotta wonder...

Ball hogs like Harden, Westbrook and LeBron represent the antithesis of what I wanna see in basketball games (hence I have so much disdain for them) so I give my 2 bobs worth when those guys are the topic of discussion. LeBron gets away with being an unashamed ball hog because he's just such a big tall athletic freak that his other worldly physical strength, speed and athleticism is just too much for even other great NBA athletes to handle on a basketball court. LeBron is in my estimation as an NBA player 80% athletic monster and 20% skill whereas Jordan was roughly a 50/50 split hence why Jordan is the GOAT for the vast majority of basketball fans.

But ball hog (which LeBron is) and high BBIQ do not belong in the same sentence, it's an oxymoron to me. The LeBronball system gets exposed badly by talented teams (Dallas, Golden State, Spurs, etc...) that play proper team oriented basketball. LeBron's unique physical gifts allow him to be a Jack of all Trades and accumulate stats like nobody has in the past, particularly against non contenders (majority of NBA teams) which LeBron teams usually dine out on.

However that system falls apart against teams that see the weakness of being over-reliant on 1 superstar doing everything (mainly for selfish narcissistic reasons, not for the benefit of the team), who doesn't share the ball all that much with his teammates, other than a last second pass that a ball hog hopes will bail him out.

A star ballhog's power within an organization also provides them with the opportunity to dictate to their teammates what their roles are. It's how Harden basically gets away with playing laughable defense coupled with countless iso plays, and how Westbrook has convinced other OKC players to box out for him to collect rebounds that are close to basket instead of running to the other side of the court like a good SG would do hoping to score from a fast break.

LeBron does the same thing with scoring, he's not that a good of a consistent shooter and relies mostly on his powerful drives to get his points. In tight close games against good opponents who don't allow him to penetrate the paint at will, he all of a sudden decides to play teamball and claims that he wants to choose the right play by deferring to bench scrubs. hahaha

The truth is LeBron knows he's a streaky shooter and he either doesn't want go to the free throw line or doesn't have much confidence in his shot and would rather a teammate take it and face the consequences if he misses it. It's difficult for teammates to make these shots though when they're often cold as the ball doesn't get passed around very much with LeBron wanting to play like a Point Forward for large chunks of the game and honestly he's just 'ok' at it being a playmaker, he's has no where near the sort of playmaking vision that Magic had. It would be better for LeBron to play mostly off ball like did in his time at Miami but he doesn't like not being in 'control' and would often take out that frustration on Mario Chalmers for being the designated PG of the team.

It's painfully obvious that he wants to use the 30K 8K 8K as the key argument for him to be regarded as the GOAT ahead of Jordan, Kareem, Magic, etc.. when he retires and to do that he has to have the ball in his hands pretty much the whole time. I don't think team championship aspirations are the true reasons why he insists on playing as a Point Forward.

I'm sorry if me disliking certain traits in what I consider selfish self absorbed NBA stars offends you but there are like literally hundreds of vitriolic threads about Ablett, Selwood, Danger, etc.. on BF and I don't see non-Geelong fans labeling these posters as haters or whatnot, on the contrary they seem to revel on the unsubstantiated trolling of those 3 players. These sensitive responses are humorous when you consider that they're about billionaire American athletes who (besides Durant) don't give a damn what poor plebs (LeBron has stated something along those lines) say about them. *shrugs*

 

[fidstar]

You got chill, I'm a Kawhi fan and whenever I listen to Skip Bayless rant about Number 2 and his supposed moral and basketball failings I can't help but laugh. I've found that the only time criticism seems to strike a nerve is when there's significant amount of truth behind it and LeBron fans have a tendency to fly off the handle when his LeBronball system is put under the microscope so you gotta wonder...

Ball hogs like Harden, Westbrook and LeBron represent the antithesis of what I wanna see in basketball games (hence I have so much disdain for them) so I give my 2 bobs worth when those guys are the topic of discussion. LeBron gets away with being an unashamed ball hog because he's just such a big tall athletic freak that his other worldly physical strength, speed and athleticism is just too much for even other great NBA athletes to handle on a basketball court. LeBron is in my estimation as an NBA player 80% athletic monster and 20% skill whereas Jordan was roughly a 50/50 split hence why Jordan is the GOAT for the vast majority of basketball fans.

But ball hog (which LeBron is) and high BBIQ do not belong in the same sentence, it's an oxymoron to me. The LeBronball system gets exposed badly by talented teams (Dallas, Golden State, Spurs, etc...) that play proper team oriented basketball. LeBron's unique physical gifts allow him to be a Jack of all Trades and accumulate stats like nobody has in the past, particularly against non contenders (majority of NBA teams) which LeBron teams usually dine out on.

However that system falls apart against teams that see the weakness of being over-reliant on 1 superstar doing everything (mainly for selfish narcissistic reasons, not for the benefit of the team), who doesn't share the ball all that much with his teammates, other than a last second pass that a ball hog hopes will bail him out.

A star ballhog's power within an organization also provides them with the opportunity to dictate to their teammates what their roles are. It's how Harden basically gets away with playing laughable defense coupled with countless iso plays, and how Westbrook has convinced other OKC players to box out for him to collect rebounds that are close to basket instead of running to the other side of the court like a good SG would do hoping to score from a fast break.

LeBron does the same thing with scoring, he's not that a good of a consistent shooter and relies mostly on his powerful drives to get his points. In tight close games against good opponents who don't allow him to penetrate the paint at will, he all of a sudden decides to play teamball and claims that he wants to choose the right play by deferring to bench scrubs. hahaha

The truth is LeBron knows he's a streaky shooter and he either doesn't want go to the free throw line or doesn't have much confidence in his shot and would rather a teammate take it and face the consequences if he misses it. It's difficult for teammates to make these shots though when they're often cold as the ball doesn't get passed around very much with LeBron wanting to play like a Point Forward for large chunks of the game and honestly he's just 'ok' at it being a playmaker, he's has no where near the sort of playmaking vision that Magic had. It would be better for LeBron to play mostly off ball like did in his time at Miami but he doesn't like not being in 'control' and would often take out that frustration on Mario Chalmers for being the designated PG of the team.

It's painfully obvious that he wants to use the 30K 8K 8K as the key argument for him to be regarded as the GOAT ahead of Jordan, Kareem, Magic, etc.. when he retires and to do that he has to have the ball in his hands pretty much the whole time. I don't think team championship aspirations are the true reasons why he insists on playing as a Point Forward.

I'm sorry if me disliking certain traits in what I consider selfish self absorbed NBA stars offends you but there are like literally hundreds of vitriolic threads about Ablett, Selwood, Danger, etc.. on BF and I don't see non-Geelong fans labeling these posters as haters or whatnot, on the contrary they seem to revel on the unsubstantiated trolling of those 3 players. These sensitive responses are humorous when you consider that they're about billionaire American athletes who (besides Durant) don't give a damn what poor plebs (LeBron has stated something along those lines) say about them. *shrugs*

Such a terrible analysis.

The LeBronball system gets exposed against talented teams?

lol

Dude beat a 73 win team.

The last two times he lost to the Warriors because that team might just be the GOAT team. Put MJ on that Cavs team and the Warriors are winning in 5. Does that make Jordan worse? Of course not. LeBron was great in those two Final series. Cavs just didn't have the talent to be competitive. The fact they made the Finals (particularly the second time) says something.

He choked against the Mavs. Not because the Mavs were better or of LeBronball, he just choked.

He's getting old now, but he made 8 straight Finals. lol @ being exposed.

If LeBron was selfish he'd have a career average of 30+ ppg.

Comparing Westbrook and LeBron might just be one of the worst comparisons of all time.

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

You got chill, I'm a Kawhi fan and whenever I listen to Skip Bayless rant about Number 2 and his supposed moral and basketball failings I can't help but laugh. I've found that the only time criticism seems to strike a nerve is when there's significant amount of truth behind it and LeBron fans have a tendency to fly off the handle when his LeBronball system is put under the microscope so you gotta wonder...

Ball hogs like Harden, Westbrook and LeBron represent the antithesis of what I wanna see in basketball games (hence I have so much disdain for them) so I give my 2 bobs worth when those guys are the topic of discussion. LeBron gets away with being an unashamed ball hog because he's just such a big tall athletic freak that his other worldly physical strength, speed and athleticism is just too much for even other great NBA athletes to handle on a basketball court. LeBron is in my estimation as an NBA player 80% athletic monster and 20% skill whereas Jordan was roughly a 50/50 split hence why Jordan is the GOAT for the vast majority of basketball fans.

But ball hog (which LeBron is) and high BBIQ do not belong in the same sentence, it's an oxymoron to me. The LeBronball system gets exposed badly by talented teams (Dallas, Golden State, Spurs, etc...) that play proper team oriented basketball. LeBron's unique physical gifts allow him to be a Jack of all Trades and accumulate stats like nobody has in the past, particularly against non contenders (majority of NBA teams) which LeBron teams usually dine out on.

However that system falls apart against teams that see the weakness of being over-reliant on 1 superstar doing everything (mainly for selfish narcissistic reasons, not for the benefit of the team), who doesn't share the ball all that much with his teammates, other than a last second pass that a ball hog hopes will bail him out.

A star ballhog's power within an organization also provides them with the opportunity to dictate to their teammates what their roles are. It's how Harden basically gets away with playing laughable defense coupled with countless iso plays, and how Westbrook has convinced other OKC players to box out for him to collect rebounds that are close to basket instead of running to the other side of the court like a good SG would do hoping to score from a fast break.

LeBron does the same thing with scoring, he's not that a good of a consistent shooter and relies mostly on his powerful drives to get his points. In tight close games against good opponents who don't allow him to penetrate the paint at will, he all of a sudden decides to play teamball and claims that he wants to choose the right play by deferring to bench scrubs. hahaha

The truth is LeBron knows he's a streaky shooter and he either doesn't want go to the free throw line or doesn't have much confidence in his shot and would rather a teammate take it and face the consequences if he misses it. It's difficult for teammates to make these shots though when they're often cold as the ball doesn't get passed around very much with LeBron wanting to play like a Point Forward for large chunks of the game and honestly he's just 'ok' at it being a playmaker, he's has no where near the sort of playmaking vision that Magic had. It would be better for LeBron to play mostly off ball like did in his time at Miami but he doesn't like not being in 'control' and would often take out that frustration on Mario Chalmers for being the designated PG of the team.

It's painfully obvious that he wants to use the 30K 8K 8K as the key argument for him to be regarded as the GOAT ahead of Jordan, Kareem, Magic, etc.. when he retires and to do that he has to have the ball in his hands pretty much the whole time. I don't think team championship aspirations are the true reasons why he insists on playing as a Point Forward.

I'm sorry if me disliking certain traits in what I consider selfish self absorbed NBA stars offends you but there are like literally hundreds of vitriolic threads about Ablett, Selwood, Danger, etc.. on BF and I don't see non-Geelong fans labeling these posters as haters or whatnot, on the contrary they seem to revel on the unsubstantiated trolling of those 3 players. These sensitive responses are humorous when you consider that they're about billionaire American athletes who (besides Durant) don't give a damn what poor plebs (LeBron has stated something along those lines) say about them. *shrugs*

LeBron having 20% skill may be the stupidest thing I have ever read. Well done mate.

 

[BEaston]

You got chill, I'm a Kawhi fan and whenever I listen to Skip Bayless rant about Number 2 and his supposed moral and basketball failings I can't help but laugh. I've found that the only time criticism seems to strike a nerve is when there's significant amount of truth behind it and LeBron fans have a tendency to fly off the handle when his LeBronball system is put under the microscope so you gotta wonder...

Ball hogs like Harden, Westbrook and LeBron represent the antithesis of what I wanna see in basketball games (hence I have so much disdain for them) so I give my 2 bobs worth when those guys are the topic of discussion. LeBron gets away with being an unashamed ball hog because he's just such a big tall athletic freak that his other worldly physical strength, speed and athleticism is just too much for even other great NBA athletes to handle on a basketball court. LeBron is in my estimation as an NBA player 80% athletic monster and 20% skill whereas Jordan was roughly a 50/50 split hence why Jordan is the GOAT for the vast majority of basketball fans.

But ball hog (which LeBron is) and high BBIQ do not belong in the same sentence, it's an oxymoron to me. The LeBronball system gets exposed badly by talented teams (Dallas, Golden State, Spurs, etc...) that play proper team oriented basketball. LeBron's unique physical gifts allow him to be a Jack of all Trades and accumulate stats like nobody has in the past, particularly against non contenders (majority of NBA teams) which LeBron teams usually dine out on.

However that system falls apart against teams that see the weakness of being over-reliant on 1 superstar doing everything (mainly for selfish narcissistic reasons, not for the benefit of the team), who doesn't share the ball all that much with his teammates, other than a last second pass that a ball hog hopes will bail him out.

A star ballhog's power within an organization also provides them with the opportunity to dictate to their teammates what their roles are. It's how Harden basically gets away with playing laughable defense coupled with countless iso plays, and how Westbrook has convinced other OKC players to box out for him to collect rebounds that are close to basket instead of running to the other side of the court like a good SG would do hoping to score from a fast break.

LeBron does the same thing with scoring, he's not that a good of a consistent shooter and relies mostly on his powerful drives to get his points. In tight close games against good opponents who don't allow him to penetrate the paint at will, he all of a sudden decides to play teamball and claims that he wants to choose the right play by deferring to bench scrubs. hahaha

The truth is LeBron knows he's a streaky shooter and he either doesn't want go to the free throw line or doesn't have much confidence in his shot and would rather a teammate take it and face the consequences if he misses it. It's difficult for teammates to make these shots though when they're often cold as the ball doesn't get passed around very much with LeBron wanting to play like a Point Forward for large chunks of the game and honestly he's just 'ok' at it being a playmaker, he's has no where near the sort of playmaking vision that Magic had. It would be better for LeBron to play mostly off ball like did in his time at Miami but he doesn't like not being in 'control' and would often take out that frustration on Mario Chalmers for being the designated PG of the team.

It's painfully obvious that he wants to use the 30K 8K 8K as the key argument for him to be regarded as the GOAT ahead of Jordan, Kareem, Magic, etc.. when he retires and to do that he has to have the ball in his hands pretty much the whole time. I don't think team championship aspirations are the true reasons why he insists on playing as a Point Forward.

I'm sorry if me disliking certain traits in what I consider selfish self absorbed NBA stars offends you but there are like literally hundreds of vitriolic threads about Ablett, Selwood, Danger, etc.. on BF and I don't see non-Geelong fans labeling these posters as haters or whatnot, on the contrary they seem to revel on the unsubstantiated trolling of those 3 players. These sensitive responses are humorous when you consider that they're about billionaire American athletes who (besides Durant) don't give a damn what poor plebs (LeBron has stated something along those lines) say about them. *shrugs*

Sorry but you have no idea. I'm no LeBron fan over any other non-Dallas player, just calling out tripe when I see it. The fact you've interjected two essays about the guy into a convo that was completely unrelated shows who's really off the handle about him.

 

[peternorth]

Some very robust discussion this weekend here.

 

[Royces Hart]

Joakim Noah is getting recruited by the New Zealand Breakers, league sources told Marc Stein of The New York Times.
The Breakers, who play in the National Basketball League, is owned by Noah's former college teammate Matt Walsh.
The 34-year-old Noah is seen as a "dream signing" for the Breakers.

Will his free throws spin the opposite direction in the southern hemisphere?

 

[Dez!]

LeBron having 20% skill may be the stupidest thing I have ever read. Well done mate.

You can't just take a small snippet, you have to look at the whole thing.

10 percent luck
20 percent skill
15 percent concentrated power of will
5 percent pleasure
50 percent pain
100 percent reason to remember the name

Your selective reading is disgusting.

 

[Timo pez]

Assuming the Pistons offer would have included Drummond or Blake? If not, Blake, Dre and Westbrook would have been a hell of a combo.

 

[Son of Skeletor]

Marcus Morris and Nerlens Noel have fired agent Rich Paul, league sources told Stefan Bondy of the New York Daily News.
Morris recently backed out of an agreement with the Spurs to sign a one-year deal with the Knicks.
Noel reached an agreement to return to the Thunder after initially backing out of a deal with the team.

Dallas offered Noel a 70m deal. Paul advised to reject and play for a better one.

He’s gotten 2 near minimum deals since.

Let us hope this is the beginning of something.

Will be really interested to see Klutch's trajectory after LeBron retires.