List Mgmt. 2020 Draft and Trade Hypotheticals

[RUNVS]

Exactly. And he 1cm taller than Kruezer too so I don't get the calls that say he's an in between height for a fwd/ruck. He could certainly become a #1 ruckman if he's good enough!

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

He doesn't kick that many goals, so he isn't a true forward, and he lost the ruck duel in the under 17's All Star game last year, so he isn't even the best ruckman in the draft.

 

[BloodySwan]

I think he could be even better than Kreuzer.

But to use pick 3 on a ruck or CHF would be a waste.

Elite rucks or CHFs of Thilthorpe's kind don't win you flags though. If I have pick 3 I'm wanting a generational player who can be a major part in a premiership.

What?

If you don't use pick 3 on a key forward when do you pick them up? There's a reason the best key forwards in the league always go in the top 5

 

[TheMase]

Has he officially been signed? He might still tell us to FO if he's got an offer elsewhere. Not like we've given him strong indicator he's wanted.

Reckon you might have missed the point. It seems to me that the club had intended to delist him to put him on the rookie list (as I had suggested we might do btw!) however if they had known about the new rule to move him straight to the rookie list without delisting they would have done that instead.

Unlike everyone here on Bigfooty, I am supremely confident Fox was always aware of this.

If he had an offer elsewhere with better conditions, we would have let him go.

 

[TheMase]

Well we probably are not getting McDonald and Thilthorpe isn't really a proper KPF.

Not a proper KPF? Wtf does that even mean???

 

[caesar88]

What?

If you don't use pick 3 on a key forward when do you pick them up? There's a reason the best key forwards in the league always go in the top 5

I don't think Thilthorpe is a key forward though really. I think he will be a roaming CHF who will spend the majority of his time outside 50.

(I consider a key forward to be a goal-kicking forward, as opposed to a marking target. Eg. Heeney is a great marking target forward of centre, but I would not consider him a key forward as he doesn't play that close to goals.)

I also don't think this is an unrealistic conclusion to make. Thilthorpe averaged just under 2 goals a game in the SANFL U18s, 1 goal a game in the SANFL League in 2019, and 0.6 in the same league this year. Not exactly prolific or imposing numbers that lead me to believe he will be the scoring firepower that you'd want from a top 5 pick.

 

[RUNVS]

Not a proper KPF? Wtf does that even mean???

Just like Sinclair is not a proper KPF, or McLean. Someone who is big and tall, and can play forward at a pinch but is not the sort of player who is capable of kicking 40 or more goals in a season.

 

[TheMase]

Just like Sinclair is not a proper KPF, or McLean. Someone who is big and tall, and can play forward at a pinch but is not the sort of player who is capable of kicking 40 or more goals in a season.

Comparing two guys who were both mature age rookie recruits with a guy touted as top 5 or 10 at worst?

Not sure the talent scouts agree with your assessment of them being at all similar at the same age.

For starters Thilthorpe belts both of these guys for agility.

Averaged a goal a game playing for West Adelaide also pinch hitting in the ruck last year.

Averaged nearly 2 goals a game at sanfl u18 (mind you also 20 disposals nearly 10 marks and 10 hitouts).

A lot of people talking in absolutes from watching a few highlights.

 

[RUNVS]

Comparing two guys who were both mature age rookie recruits with a guy touted as top 5 or 10 at worst?

Not sure the talent scouts agree with your assessment of them being at all similar at the same age.

For starters Thilthorpe belts both of these guys for agility.

Averaged a goal a game playing for West Adelaide also pinch hitting in the ruck last year.

Averaged nearly 2 goals a game at sanfl u18 (mind you also 20 disposals nearly 10 marks and 10 hitouts).

A lot of people talking in absolutes from watching a few highlights.

The West Adelaide example is far better than the U18 example as guys Thilthorpe's size tend to dominate at the U18's because they are so big, both in height and weight.

Comparing how they did against men, McDonald got twice as many goals per game as Thilthorpe did.

 

[caesar88]

Comparing two guys who were both mature age rookie recruits with a guy touted as top 5 or 10 at worst?

Not sure the talent scouts agree with your assessment of them being at all similar at the same age.

For starters Thilthorpe belts both of these guys for agility.

Averaged a goal a game playing for West Adelaide also pinch hitting in the ruck.

Averaged nearly 2 goals a game at sanfl u18 (mind you also 20 disposals nearly 10 marks and 10 hitouts).

A lot of people talking in absolutes from watching a few highlights.

Going to assume I am not one of the 'lot of people' as I am actually ignoring the highlights and speaking based on what I've seen from entire games, and from those who have seen all his games. He just doesn't spend much game-time inside 50 or close to goals. That is just a fact. If there were heat-maps for the SANFL, it would be piping hot between the arcs.

And for the record, I actually consider that to be a good thing. I've been consistent that he is my pick of the talls, and I rate him very highly, and think the criticism of him is harsh and unfounded. For a bloke of his size to be covering the ground like that and winning possession the way he does is bloody impressive. I think I even said that he has the brain of a midfielder.

But to say he is a key forward like other top 5 picks before him - Franklin, Roughead, Kennedy, even the King brothers - is being purely hypothetical, as he's actually rarely played as a key forward.

However I suppose it depends on what you consider a key forward to be, and whether scoreboard impact alone fits that definition in your view or not.

 

[TheMase]

Big guy that has the agility and the engine to get up the ground and give us an outlet link between forward and defence is valuable imo. These players also bring the outside runners into the game by releasing them after they mark around the middle of the ground.

Yes you need to win the clearances but you also need to move the ball up the ground.

I see the want for an inside player as well but it’s tough.

 

[TheMase]

Going to assume I am not one of the 'lot of people' as I am actually ignoring the highlights and speaking based on what I've seen from entire games, and from those who have seen all his games. He just doesn't spend much game-time inside 50 or close to goals. That is just a fact. If there were heat-maps for the SANFL, it would be piping hot between the arcs.

And for the record, I actually consider that to be a good thing. I've been consistent that he is my pick of the talls, and I rate him very highly, and think the criticism of him is harsh and unfounded. For a bloke of his size to be covering the ground like that and winning possession the way he does is bloody impressive. I think I even said that he has the brain of a midfielder.

But to say he is a key forward like other top 5 picks before him - Franklin, Roughead, Kennedy, even the King brothers - is being purely hypothetical, as he's actually rarely played as a key forward.

However I suppose it depends on what you consider a key forward to be, and whether scoreboard impact alone fits that definition in your view or not.

Oh no not at all. You’ve said all along you rate him, just not as much for us because you prefer a mid as much as anything else.

Definitely of a key forward is a fair point, as you’ll note in my above post advocating for a player between the arcs LOL!

 

[TheMase]

Comparing how they did against men, McDonald got twice as many goals per game as Thilthorpe did.

In a different competition, one playing deep and one not (as per my discussion with Caesar above).
Not sure they can directly compared as they are playing different positions really.

 

[RUNVS]

In a different competition, one playing deep and one not (as per my discussion with Caesar above).
Not sure they can directly compared as they are playing different positions really.

To me Thilthorpe feels like a jack of all trades, master of none player. He feels like a future David Hale

David Hale

Age

39

Ht

201cm

Wt

102kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.6

3star

K

5.7

2star

HB

4.9

4star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.9

4star

No current season stats available

D

6.6

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

2.0

2star

M

3.6

4star

T

0.8

3star

G

0.4

3star

, but that is just my opinion.

If the Swans do draft him I hope I am very wrong.

 

[caesar88]

Oh no not at all. You’ve said all along you rate him, just not as much for us because you prefer a mid as much as anything else.

Definitely of a key forward is a fair point, as you’ll note in my above post advocating for a player between the arcs LOL!

I see your point about the player who can cover the ground well, and lead up and down the wings to help transition from back 50 to forward 50. But I also posted a few weeks back how I would like to see Heeney & Dawson be those players. Maybe I am dispirited after being let down by so many talls in recent years, but I trust Heeney to win a 1v1 up the ground or take a strong pack mark down the line more than any bloke who might be over 195cm. Even more so than Buddy, and probably more than Thilthorpe. And Dawson can cover the ground as well as anyone while also being 6cm taller than Heeney (!)

I'm also just not concerned by our defensive transitions at all. I think it's been a real strength of ours in recent times. We sure as hell ain't generating scores from centre bounces, so our goals have to be coming from somewhere. Thilthorpe would be a great asset there, but he'd be the cherry on top of a cake for us in an area that's already working pretty well, at least in my opinion.

I would like for pick 3 to be a 'cake' type, which is why I've put aside my excitement where Thilthorpe is concerned, and why I'd even prefer McDonald, though I rate him the inferior prospect, as at least we could attempt to build something around him.

 

[Punts]

Club knows far better than I do but I'll be spewing if they go the hybrid ruck

 

[TheMase]

I see your point about the player who can cover the ground well, and lead up and down the wings to help transition from back 50 to forward 50. But I also posted a few weeks back how I would like to see Heeney & Dawson be those players. Maybe I am dispirited after being let down by so many talls in recent years, but I trust Heeney to win a 1v1 up the ground or take a strong pack mark down the line more than any bloke who might be over 195cm. Even more so than Buddy, and probably more than Thilthorpe. And Dawson can cover the ground as well as anyone while also being 6cm taller than Heeney (!)

I'm also just not concerned by our defensive transitions at all. I think it's been a real strength of ours in recent times. We sure as hell ain't generating scores from centre bounces, so our goals have to be coming from somewhere. Thilthorpe would be a great asset there, but he'd be the cherry on top of a cake for us in an area that's already working pretty well, at least in my opinion.

I would like for pick 3 to be a 'cake' type, which is why I've put aside my excitement where Thilthorpe is concerned, and why I'd even prefer McDonald, though I rate him the inferior prospect, as at least we could attempt to build something around him.

All fair points!

 

[Punts]

Is Heeney back running etc?

Last I heard his ankles were stuffed and going to be a major concern heading into the future

 

[caesar88]

Is Heeney back running etc?

Last I heard his ankles were stuffed and going to be a major concern heading into the future

Not sure about running, but he was seen walking through K-mart last week, spent a lot of time checking out the zimmer frames so make of that what you will.

 

[RUNVS]

Not sure about running, but he was seen walking through K-mart last week, spent a lot of time checking out the zimmer frames so make of that what you will.

I saw Rampe buying vinegar and baking soda at a supermarket last week, along with paper and glue.

 

[Kiama Chris]

Reckon you might have missed the point. It seems to me that the club had intended to delist him to put him on the rookie list (as I had suggested we might do btw!) however if they had know the new rule to move him straight to the rookie list without delisting they would have done that instead.

Unlike everyone here on Bigfooty, I am supremely confident Fox was always aware of this.

If he had an offer elsewhere with better conditions, we would have let him go.

Bang on

 

[Bear31]

To me I see Gulden as becoming a hard running small forward, a small forward who can push up into the midfield whenever he wants because of his endurance.

I think he has Papley traits

 

[RUNVS]

I think he has Papley traits

So do I. From what I know of Gulden he has a natural ability to know exactly where the ball is going to be.

 

[Wheresbuddy]

If McLean could develop into our next LRT, then I would be happy.
LRT could do a role back, forward and in the ruck - nothing too flashy, just 110% effort and was very rarely beaten.

 

[MarkP]

Club knows far better than I do but I'll be spewing if they go the hybrid ruck

Do they? Do they really: I reckon they have just as much as a stab as most of us.

Bit more data available to them but there are so many busts year on year do they really have any greater insight?

Look at Beatsons record really critically - and he is touted as as good as it gets. Does it really show expertise? Or could a numpty like me look at a few videos have a chat and go * it you will do.

Lots of monkeys tossing poo at targets I reckon and then they dine out on the good ones ignoring the multiple losses.

 

[RUNVS]

Do they? Do they really: I reckon they have just as much as a stab as most of us.

Bit more data available to them but there are so many busts year on year do they really have any greater insight?

Look at Beatsons record really critically - and he is touted as as good as it gets. Does it really show expertise? Or could a numpty like me look at a few videos have a chat and go fu** it you will do.

Lots of monkeys tossing poo at targets I reckon and then they dine out on the good ones ignoring the multiple losses.

Beatson is first class when it comes to finding gems later in the draft.