List Mgmt. 2022 Draft and Trade Hypotheticals: Kinnear & Dalrymple - we march to no drum but our own!

[Ticky009]

 

[The King!]

Some clubs would take him as a Free Agent. A young backline or sides that need some drive from it

there's only one club dumb enough to pay him decent coin

 

[Millky95]

there's only one club dumb enough to pay him decent coin

Sydney or Gold Coast?

He is too young for Geelong

 

[wills2g]

Can we get a mid that can rack up 30 touches?

Chad, Rowy, Mills are not it. Parker cant even get 20 sometimes and he's our most experienced mid.

 

[Kirkswan]

Can we get a mid that can rack up 30 touches?

Chad, Rowy, Mills are not it. Parker cant even get 20 sometimes and he's our most experienced mid.

Why? When our mids are all playing really well, we're bloody lucky if one of them gets 30!

We play as a team of mids, rather than one high touch count ball distributor, with others working off him.

Its a bit like goals... what we ideally want to see is 7 - 10 goal kickers; with mids we want 4 or 5 in the high 20s.

 

[wills2g]

Why? When our mids are all playing really well, we're bloody lucky if one of them gets 30!

We play as a team of mids, rather than one high touch count ball distributor, with others working off him.

Its a bit like goals... what we ideally want to see is 7 - 10 goal kickers; with mids we want 4 or 5 in the high 20s.

Against Melbourne, we had Mills 26 and a huge drop off after with Parker, Chad, Rowy, Gulden all under 20.

Against Richmond, Warner 27, Parker 26 then everyone else 20 or below.

I understand the argument for goal kickers, but imo its different for a midfield group. We don't have a consistent mid like JPK was, who will week in week out impose himself on the game. I wouldn't say JPK is a one high touch count ball distributor, but we're missing someone even 3/4 of a JPK to win some contested ball

Not going to strongly win many games with those numbers. We basically never have the ball in our hands

 

[caesar88]

Can we get a mid that can rack up 30 touches?

Chad, Rowy, Mills are not it. Parker cant even get 20 sometimes and he's our most experienced mid.

Don't put too much stock in touches. Unless you're talking a Pendlebury/Ablett esque ball user (and let's face it there's not even 5 like that in the comp), then it's just not worth having someone running around collecting cheap balls on the outside - which is how you get to 30. No one's getting to 30 on the back of 25 contested possessions and hard balls won. Not even Clayton Oliver.

I'm sure we could have Mills, Rowbottom & Warner just having the monopoly on our possessions if we wanted to. Getting all the hard ball on the inside then following it up with another disposal or two in the passage in space. But why would we want those guys getting touches on the outside when we have Gulden, Blakey, McInerney, Heeney, Florent?

I love what I've seen from our inside brigade when they're on song, because they're maximum impact players. Every disposal is a clearance or an inside 50 or a hard ball won. They break the contest open so that we can get our running game going and get it in the hands of our classier players. It would seem from injecting guys like Rowbottom and Warner into our midfield, that we're actively trying to avoid the kind of repeat stoppages and rolling scrums that lead to high disposal counts.

 

[caesar88]

Against Melbourne, we had Mills 26 and a huge drop off after with Parker, Chad, Rowy, Gulden all under 20.

Against Richmond, Warner 27, Parker 26 then everyone else 20 or below.

I understand the argument for goal kickers, but imo its different for a midfield group. We don't have a consistent mid like JPK was, who will week in week out impose himself on the game. I wouldn't say JPK is a one high touch count ball distributor, but we're missing someone even 3/4 of a JPK to win some contested ball

Not going to strongly win many games with those numbers. We basically never have the ball in our hands

Also just gonna quote myself from last week here:

Could be wrong but I feel like every game this year where I've thought our midfield has been great, I've looked at the stats sheet after the game and seen the mids had very low numbers, relatively speaking.

RD1 vs GWS:
Mills - 21 disposals
Parker - 21 disposals
Florent - 20 disposals
Rowbottom - 18 disposals

RD11 vs Richmond:
Warner - 27 disposals
Parker - 26 disposals
Mills - 20 disposals
Rowbottom - 19 disposals

RD12 vs Melbourne:
Mills - 26 disposals
Warner - 19 disposals
Parker - 17 disposals
Rowbottom - 16 disposals

I feel like we are better when the midfield is in bang for their buck mode. You don't need to accumulate if every touch is a hard ball won, a clean break from congestion, a thumping deep entry inside 50, a line breaking change of direction, a simple handball to a free man on the outside, or a touch earned from causing a turnover. I think when the mids are doing these things, there's less over-possessing, less repeat stoppages and less rolling scrums. It means they're less prolific individually but far more damaging as a unit and better suited to our fast, direct, attacking game plan.

 

[wills2g]

I'm sure we could have Mills, Rowbottom & Warner just having the monopoly on our possessions if we wanted to. Getting all the hard ball on the inside then following it up with another disposal or two in the passage in space. But why would we want those guys getting touches on the outside when we have Gulden, Blakey, McInerney, Heeney, Florent?

I don't see Gulden, Blakey or JMac getting consistent outside ball from our mids. Its almost always from defence, where they have to go the whole field. Why not from the source? Get a head start on field positioning rather than always starting from d50

 

[caesar88]

I don't see Gulden, Blakey or JMac getting consistent outside ball from our mids. Its almost always from defence, where they have to go the whole field. Why not from the source? Get a head start on field positioning rather than always starting from d50

Indeed, but that's because they're still all clicking. My point is what we are clearly trying to build towards. Efficiency. When our inside and outside brigades have both been on song, that whole quality over quantity factor really stands out for us. Given that both feature young players whose performances are ebbing and flowing, we haven't seen enough of it this year. If we had, I suspect we'd be better than 8th on the ladder.

 

[wills2g]

I use Melbourne and Richmond as examples because we honestly had no right to win those from such a points deficit. Conceding 100 against Richmond, does not show that the midfield group is working well, just our forwards being extremely efficient to outscore.

I rather get a 25-30 touches mid than a KPD in the off season. You can cover a weaker defence with flooding, but you cant cover a weak defence if you concede centre bounce clearance

 

[momentbymoment]

Gee after that game against port, we need KPP's ASAP. Paddy, Tommy and Ramps can have some great games, but games like that where they are constantly undersized, it feels like we need some more support from them. Midfielder and a KPP hopefully we will take in the draft.

I’ll say it again.
Reid can go back - would be a brilliant 3rd tall - and Amartey can take his place forward.

 

[caesar88]

I use Melbourne and Richmond as examples because we honestly had no right to win those from such a points deficit. Conceding 100 against Richmond, does not show that the midfield group is working well, just our forwards being extremely efficient to outscore.

I rather get a 25-30 touches mid than a KPD in the off season. You can cover a weaker defence with flooding, but you cant cover a weak defence if you concede centre bounce clearance

So their midfields were better than ours because they got 30 points ahead? How is it any different from our midfield getting us those 30 points back and then winning the game?

And if that's breaking even then sign me up. I rate Melbourne and Richmond's midfields as elite. Melbourne's is best in the comp, Richmond's an underrated force. Were you expecting our midfield being led by kids to give them a thumping in there?

 

[wills2g]

So their midfields were better than ours because they got 30 points ahead? How is it any different from our midfield getting us those 30 points back and then winning the game?

And if that's breaking even then sign me up. I rate Melbourne and Richmond's midfields as elite. Melbourne's is best in the comp, Richmond's an underrated force. Were you expecting our midfield being led by kids to give them a thumping in there?

I think that's the issue. Breaking even against those midfields - ok fine, tick. The issue is that our midfield's ceiling is breaking even against any side - even North.. That's where an elite mid will help out, to win those bottom 8 games, so we don't just break even

 

[caesar88]

I think that's the issue. Breaking even against those midfields - ok fine, tick. The issue is that our midfield's ceiling is breaking even against any side - even North.. That's where an elite mid will help out, to win those bottom 8 games, so we don't just break even

But if they're breaking even against quality midfields when they are 21 years old, I think that suggests they will be able to achieve much more when they're 24/25.

If you're looking for an elite accumulator though, you don't rate Mills?

 

[wills2g]

But if they're breaking even against quality midfields when they are 21 years old, I think that suggests they will be able to achieve much more when they're 24/25.

Yes but its about winning the flag this year or next

If you're looking for an elite accumulator though, you don't rate Mills?

I do, but he needs help. When Mills has been moved back to Defence, some consider it a genius move. If you look at it from the other perspective, Horse has basically said, our best midfield setup of Mills, Parker, Rowy, Chad is not good enough to stop the bleeding/momentum, and he's hoping our other option of Defence holding up instead.

To me, that's screaming for another elite mid.

 

[The King!]

can we trade the players we don't rate for guns please

 

[dosser]

can we trade the players we don't rate for guns please

The wisdom of the elders

 

[alex4445]

Against Melbourne, we had Mills 26 and a huge drop off after with Parker, Chad, Rowy, Gulden all under 20.

Against Richmond, Warner 27, Parker 26 then everyone else 20 or below.

I understand the argument for goal kickers, but imo its different for a midfield group. We don't have a consistent mid like JPK was, who will week in week out impose himself on the game. I wouldn't say JPK is a one high touch count ball distributor, but we're missing someone even 3/4 of a JPK to win some contested ball

Not going to strongly win many games with those numbers. We basically never have the ball in our hands

IMO low individual disposal numbers are down to our play style and if we are playing well should never be overly high.

We look to be aggressive out of clearances and backline with long direct kicks ideally through the middle. This fast ball movement leads to an open forward line and very few disposals for a shot at goal. In addition to this we now have multiple attacking players running through our defence in Blakey, McInerney, Florent and Paddy Mac taking possessions away from the midfield players.

In the past we have played with a highly defensive backline that struggled to provide much rebound so our mids were the ones picking up disposals coming out of defence and then responsible for taking it the whole length of the ground. This meant we had better team defence but much worse attack and often unable to move the ball out of our defensive end.

 

[Punts]

Personally wouldn’t be renewing Lloyd

Florent should be put up but probably not even worth it what we would get back

Gould should get another year cause rampe will fall even further and most likely be in the 2s halfway through next year

 

[Punts]

Be going after a gun mid

Be going for someone from the dogs

Get smith out of the spotlight of Melbourne

 

[Punts]

Hooper also would walk into our side

 

[Punts]

Degoey would be on the cheap , we had a crack few years.

Yes his off field isn’t the greatest but get him out of spotlight

The no dickhead policy doesn’t matter cause ladhams was apparently not the greatest off field amd we new about , got mentioned yesterday again

 

[Dan87]

Drinking piss, having dreads, and losing your cool at your old club are not sexual assault allegations fyi

 

[Punts]

Drinking piss, having dreads, and losing your cool at your old club are not sexual assault allegations fyi

Wasn’t found guilty like Micky O

On the field he can be weapon

 

[SGBeach]

Personally wouldn’t be renewing Lloyd

Florent should be put up but probably not even worth it what we would get back

Gould should get another year cause rampe will fall even further and most likely be in the 2s halfway through next year

It'll be interesting what happens with Gould. Every bit Ive seen of him this year, He's been improving to the point he might be good? Im no expert judge on KPDs. KPD is certainly an area we lack depth, so if the Swans are happy with Goulds progress, they might give him 2 years??
Agree re Lloyd. In my dreams I see North thinking he's the exact type of player they need to settle their defence and transition, and they offer him 4 years on big $$ so the Swans get a good compo pick.
I like the idea of Florent playing Lloyds role. Florent is a quicker, taller, a good kick and a much better defender. He generally would offer more all round from that position.