Player Watch #34: Jack Graham - Part 2

[Meteoric Rise]

i personally don't think he is any slower than he was when he was younger, but the issue is- he hasn't added anything to his game since he was young - if anything, he has got less. He used to be able to impact down forward more but it feels like that part of his game is no longer there.

"Hasn't added anything to his game."

Fmd John Coleman must have been a disappointment after his first season then. What a stupid measure.

He was good enough to play in 3 flags and a minor Premiership team as an automatic selection. So if he maintains that standard he is definitely an AFL level player and a good one. And he has maintained the standard. So there is no question Graham is good enough to play his familiar role in the Richmond team. He is bloody good at it, which is precisely why other teams are interested in him as a free agent.

I would agree his skill set might be more valuable to some teams than others. But teams who have gun attacking mids like Port and Eagles, it is pretty straightforward to see why they might be keen on such a great 2 way runner.

The question for Richmond will simply be whether the offers he gets are worth matching. If JGTI gets offered $600k x 4 years or something like that, are we better off trying to fill his role with a cheaper player? And he has already had an offer superior to that when the salary cap was appreciably lower than it is now.

Graham is probably most comparable to a guy like Neal-Bullen from Melbourne. Their statistical profiles are very similar in most ways, ANB has a bit more scoring impact, JGTI a bit more tackling and pressure impact. A big difference is ANB isn't having to be thrown into the main midfield rotations at times to be made to look like a dickhead.

Some stupid denigrating of a great team player with a rare and valuable skill set, because people want to focus on the things he can't do. We just need to get other players to do those things. That is the only problem, some other teams have got those players and we haven't right at the minute.

 

[Hoos]

The thing that I notice that has gone backwards the most in his game is his kicking. He seems to not have the power that he used to.

Several leg and foot injuries can't have helped much.

 

[tropicaltiger]

"Hasn't added anything to his game."

Fmd John Coleman must have been a disappointment after his first season then. What a stupid measure.

He was good enough to play in 3 flags and a minor Premiership team as an automatic selection. So if he maintains that standard he is definitely an AFL level player and a good one. And he has maintained the standard. So there is no question Graham is good enough to play his familiar role in the Richmond team. He is bloody good at it, which is precisely why other teams are interested in him as a free agent.

I would agree his skill set might be more valuable to some teams than others. But teams who have gun attacking mids like Port and Eagles, it is pretty straightforward to see why they might be keen on such a great 2 way runner.

The question for Richmond will simply be whether the offers he gets are worth matching. If JGTI gets offered $600k x 4 years or something like that, are we better off trying to fill his role with a cheaper player? And he has already had an offer superior to that when the salary cap was appreciably lower than it is now.

Graham is probably most comparable to a guy like Neal-Bullen from Melbourne. Their statistical profiles are very similar in most ways, ANB has a bit more scoring impact, JGTI a bit more tackling and pressure impact. A big difference is ANB isn't having to be thrown into the main midfield rotations at times to be made to look like a dickhead.

Some stupid denigrating of a great team player with a rare and valuable skill set, because people want to focus on the things he can't do. We just need to get other players to do those things. That is the only problem, some other teams have got those players and we haven't right at the minute.

no one is offering JGTI 2.4m

 

[THE_GUN]

no one is offering JGTI 2.4m

Average salary next year will be around $500k

 

[richoplzbreed]

The thing that I notice that has gone backwards the most in his game is his kicking. He seems to not have the power that he used to.

Several leg and foot injuries can't have helped much.

No need to search for excuses that probably aren't there. No one's had more leg injuries than old man meatball and his kickings fine.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

no one is offering JGTI 2.4m

Why wouldn't Eagles for eg offer that much at least? Plenty of cap space and they can sure use his skill set and experience, and the example he will set, plus he is a free agent, so allows them to retain all their picks.

He mightn't be very sexy, but his value is clear to a team like this.

 

[Grrr]

Last few pages have been an interesting read

Ya think.

 

[tropicaltiger]

Why wouldn't Eagles for eg offer that much at least? Plenty of cap space and they can sure use his skill set and experience, and the example he will set, plus he is a free agent, so allows them to retain all their picks.

He mightn't be very sexy, but his value is clear to a team like this.

this bloke 4 mil over 5y better bang for buck

 

[TigerImposter]

no one is offering JGTI 2.4m

What do we get in terms of a pick if this luck falls our way TT?

 

[tropicaltiger]

What do we get in terms of a pick if this luck falls our way TT?

No idea how the AFL work the formula out, but it is now my brutal opinion.... Jack is really worth only about what we nabbed him for

a pic in the early 50s.

 

[Morro]

Yes it does. You are saying him being the slowest player in the league has "no proof"

My point is - where is yours? Why are you sitting around defending a guy who has been a massive disappointment - where is any of your proof back? why is it always on everyone else to provide than and never yourself, or others that like to lean on wishy washy bullshit comments?

have some balls mate. its a forum. Its here to voice opinions. Someone said he was the slowest mid in the league and you want proof?? GTFOuttahere

You joined an argument late, provided a whole heap of off topic dribble relating to form, tried to pass it off as evidence of the topic at hand despite it being kinda weird and now throwing your toys out of the cot?

I and others provided evidence, but TI provided none but I reckon you know that and are just trying to get TI to ask you out for a romantic dinner or something?

You should go back to bagging Dan Rioli as being one of the worst defenders in the game, that was some of your best work

 

[Morro]

Sure but let’s be clear, it’s blindingly obvious that ‘speed’ only became that once there was obvious proof that he actually runs faster than most other players (which you would clearly also class as speed)

Correct, it was a beautiful maneuver of the target by old no facts

 

[Morro]

no one is offering JGTI 2.4m

I agree, but WC trying to lure him there would take some extra "love" cash you would think.

 

[tony__montana]

As hard as it is to accept by some, a player in his peak years who has premiership experience and is renowned for being a team first player and is wanted by several teams (eagles, crows, power and us) will get paid well. I am hesitant to lose players from that 23-28 bracket, but for mine Graham is a player we can cover, so all power to him and us if he gets a few offers he cant refuse.

 

[Hoos]

No need to search for excuses that probably aren't there. No one's had more leg injuries than old man meatball and his kickings fine.

Yeah, fair enough. Graham's power in his kicking seems to have disappeared completely.

 

[Daka]

The thing that I notice that has gone backwards the most in his game is his kicking. He seems to not have the power that he used to.

Several leg and foot injuries can't have helped much.

The thing he used to be was a tackling machine. either he can't do it good anymore because of the shoulder injury or he has lost a yard to apply tackles.

 

[Grrr]

The thing he used to be was a tackling machine. either he can't do it good anymore because of the shoulder injury or he has lost a yard to apply tackles.

Shoulder injury, that's a while ago. He still tackles okay, but as a mid, you need a few more strings.

 

[Morro]

Shoulder injury, that's a while ago. He still tackles okay, but as a mid, you need a few more strings.

Is he even considered a mid these days? Seems to be more HHF

 

[Grrr]

Is he even considered a mid these days? Seems to be more HHF

And he played that role well in our Premiership years. He and Lambert both doing the corridor running to cover for Dusty not going into defence as a midfielder. You want to talk positive role players, those two were great examples.

But now we need our half forwards to play as attacking forwards, Dusty, Bolton, Campbell (will be one day), MRJ etc. The role he had has gone to some extent. Handy player still but we are about progressing out list right now.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

And he played that role well in our Premiership years. He and Lambert both doing the corridor running to cover for Dusty not going into defence as a midfielder. You want to talk positive role players, those two were great examples.

But now we need our half forwards to play as attacking forwards, Dusty, Bolton, Campbell (will be one day), MRJ etc. The role he had has gone to some extent. Handy player still but we are about progressing out list right now.

We need gun attacking inside mids and a gun key forward. You cannot get anywhere good without those components in your team. Letting go of Graham for what is likely to be a good rd 2 pick is going to get us that much closer to being able to trade in or draft some marquee level mids/forwards. It also clears a bit more cap space too.

But people suggesting Graham has no place in our team are clueless.

 

[THE_GUN]

I think any potential suitor would not be looking at what he is at Richmond but what he could be in their line up based on 7 years of what his assets are and how that works for them.

1 mans trash is another mans treasure
lets hope there are 2-3 clubs talking to him and drive up his cash to $600k+
(sounds alot but its a different landscape)

 

[Grrr]

We need gun attacking inside mids and a gun key forward. You cannot get anywhere good without those components in your team. Letting go of Graham for what is likely to be a good rd 2 pick is going to get us that much closer to being able to trade in or draft some marquee level mids/forwards. It also clears a bit more cap space too.

But people suggesting Graham has no place in our team are clueless.

Well that's settled then. Seems to me over the years that when a player has 161 pages (Part 2) on this forum, there is a reasonable cause for discussion as to whether they are good enough to be in the side. Clueless the lot of us, except your good self.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Well that's settled then. Seems to me over the years that when a player has 161 pages (Part 2) on this forum, there is a reasonable cause for discussion as to whether they are good enough to be in the side. Clueless the lot of us, except your good self.

I will concede clueless is possibly the wrong word.

You are following the wrong clues.

JGTI is clearly good enough to be in our side because he has basically always been auto-selected. Even when we were over-flowing with depth. It is probably a bit similar to the Brandon Ellis situation for us. If you give us J Graham for $350k a year he gets selected every week in our team. If you ask us to pay $550-600k+ then we are probably going to think we can do better overall by playing a $350k guy in his role, even though that player himself may be not quite as good as JGTI. What is different here is our second round compo won't end up at pick 45 or wherever that Brellis compo pick fell to. At the point we are trading it, it might be a pick in the high 20's, so useful to us given what we are looking to do.

Hint when following clues to work out the value of a player: Trust the thoughts of the people in the best position to assess the player's value, ie, the selectors. That is always the primary clue to follow. Don't trust TigerImposter 's eyes or his weird physics theories.

 

[Grrr]

I will concede clueless is possibly the wrong word.

You are following the wrong clues.

JGTI is clearly good enough to be in our side because he has basically always been auto-selected. Even when we were over-flowing with depth. It is probably a bit similar to the Brandon Ellis situation for us. If you give us J Graham for $350k a year he gets selected every week in our team. If you ask us to pay $550-600k+ then we are probably going to think we can do better overall by playing a $350k guy in his role, even though that player himself may be not quite as good as JGTI. What is different here is our second round compo won't end up at pick 45 or wherever that Brellis compo pick fell to. At the point we are trading it, it might be a pick in the high 20's, so useful to us given what we are looking to do.

Hint when following clues to work out the value of a player: Trust the thoughts of the people in the best position to assess the player's value, ie, the selectors. That is always the primary clue to follow. Don't trust TigerImposter 's eyes or his weird physics theories.

Or you could follow the general flow of the last 150 odd pages that have debated whether Graham is worth his place in the side. Generally, when that happens, the player is not long for the side because we don't debate the good to very good players.

Graham is a veteran of his position, he is at his peak age, yet he is still in the bottom 6 players in our side, for either value as a player, or value for the position he plays. He is a high half forward, that is not an essential position generally. I have noted that he was good in that position early in his career, but he has not progressed, even those like yourself who value him would concede that, and that the need to provide Dusty when on ball defensive presence is no longer needed. So he is now being measured on actual form. His 15 possession, 1 tackle game is not really making him safe. He had plenty of similar games last year as well.

I and many other posters don't need the TI seal of approval/disapproval to make an opinion valid. We've have had plenty of disagreements over the years, but I generally value his sometimes harsh assessments, because like all of us, he's sees things his way and has a right to voice that. Take what you want out of it, like all posters. I even liked our rather forthright WA college, sheesh I've forgotten his name(s), but he has disappeared.

Graham and MacIntosh, the two in the gun from posters over the last two years, (beside Ellis who you mention), were always going to stay in the side in the short term. Yze was hardly going to come in and run a line through players that have served us so well, and that's good. Hardwick was loyal to the back teeth, which made him the coach he was, but by the end he was not the same coach. So quoting coaches value things that we don't see does not wash with me. We have all been around long enough to value our own judgement, which in general is the eye test, not stats or opinion of others.

I will be surprised if Graham lasts the season. If he does it will be because he has regained real form, if so well and good. I also do not care about trading him for a higher pick because he has played all year, what message would that send. I would be surprised if Graham went for a draft pic of note, because he is not the sort of players clubs chase. He may have been a few years ago.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Or you could follow the general flow of the last 150 odd pages that have debated whether Graham is worth his place in the side. Generally, when that happens, the player is not long for the side because we don't debate the good to very good players.

Graham is a veteran of his position, he is at his peak age, yet he is still in the bottom 6 players in our side, for either value as a player, or value for the position he plays. He is a high half forward, that is not an essential position generally. I have noted that he was good in that position early in his career, but he has not progressed, even those like yourself who value him would concede that, and that the need to provide Dusty when on ball defensive presence is no longer needed. So he is now being measured on actual form. His 15 possession, 1 tackle game is not really making him safe. He had plenty of similar games last year as well.

I and many other posters don't need the TI seal of approval/disapproval to make an opinion valid. We've have had plenty of disagreements over the years, but I generally value his sometimes harsh assessments, because like all of us, he's sees things his way and has a right to voice that. Take what you want out of it, like all posters. I even liked our rather forthright WA college, sheesh I've forgotten his name(s), but he has disappeared.

Graham and MacIntosh, the two in the gun from posters over the last two years, (beside Ellis who you mention), were always going to stay in the side in the short term. Yze was hardly going to come in and run a line through players that have served us so well, and that's good. Hardwick was loyal to the back teeth, which made him the coach he was, but by the end he was not the same coach. So quoting coaches value things that we don't see does not wash with me. We have all been around long enough to value our own judgement, which in general is the eye test, not stats or opinion of others.

I will be surprised if Graham lasts the season. If he does it will be because he has regained real form, if so well and good. I also do not care about trading him for a higher pick because he has played all year, what message would that send. I would be surprised if Graham went for a draft pic of note, because he is not the sort of players clubs chase. He may have been a few years ago.

"Not the sort of player clubs chase."

In the 2022 off season a player called Ben Long was traded from St Kilda to the Suns for pick 32.

Tom Berry went from Lions to the Suns for roughly similar value.

Tobias Bedford went from Demons where he wasn't getting a game to GWS for pick 44.

2023 Zac Fisher from Carlton to North for probably the value of pick 30 odd.

Lachie Schultz pick 34 and a future first.

Small selection from the last couple of off seasons. If those guys are being traded for those picks then there is definitely a market for Jack Graham, basically a triple flag, automatic selection, model citizen footballer.