Are South African racial quotas hurting the game?

[STFU Donnie]

If de Kock went it would be a big name and he is still young enough to represent England down the track.

Cook will probably go when he's cooked and they have some other young promising white batsmen in the ranks. They might be targeted to play for England as well, for example Aidan Markram. They have already snapped up Colin Ackerman who showed promise in the junior ranks.

Maybe England and SA could merge!

You do know that Cook is 34, don't you? Hardly a " young promising white batsman in the ranks"

 

[Donnie Darko]

I read it as the fact that currently most of the players and the depth are still white and losing all of that in the near future would be in real danger of going down the same path as Zimbabwe in cricketing terms.

The Zimbo's did what South Africa are doing and forced out all the white players , coaches ,etc.. 10 years later they are a chaotic mess and their cricket scene is dead. All thanks to their glorious leader Mugabe . The man who basically ordered the killing / eviction of white farmers. Two years later the penny dropped that they made all the countries food and people were starving. So he asks for 2 billion dollars of food aid.

I can see the same process happening in S.A..
the players realise it and are taking the chance to jump ship.

 

[STFU Donnie]

The question originally posed was "Are South Africa's racial quotas hurting the game?" I would respond by asking "Are South Africa's racial quotas hurting South Africa?"

Here are their full test results over the last five years:

2016/17 SA vs SL SA 2-0, still in progress
2016/17 SA vs Aus SA 2-1
2016/17 SA vs NZ SA 1-0
2015/16 Ind vs SA Ind 3-0
2015/16 Ban vs SA 0-0 (both tests washed out)
2014/15 Zim vs SA SA 1-0
2014/15 SL vs SA SA 1-0
2014/15 SA vs WI SA 2-0
2013/14 SA vs Ind SA 1-0
2013/14 SA vs Aus Aus 2-1
2013/14 SA vs Ind SA 1-0
2013/14 Pak vs SA 1-1
2011/12 SA vs SL SA 2-1
2011/12 SA vs Aus 1-1

Crisis? What crisis?

 

[nobbyiscool]

The Zimbo's did what South Africa are doing and forced out all the white players , coaches ,etc.. 10 years later they are a chaotic mess and their cricket scene is dead. All thanks to their glorious leader Mugabe . The man who basically ordered the killing / eviction of white farmers. Two years later the penny dropped that they made all the countries food and people were starving. So he asks for 2 billion dollars of food aid.

I can see the same process happening in S.A..
the players realise it and are taking the chance to jump ship.

Your comment suggests you know nothing about what happened in Zimbabwe or what is happening in South Africa.

The world is a smaller place thanks to the internet. You should do some reading before making comments on something you know nothing about.

 

[The_Reaper]

Just to be clear, I understood what you were saying, but I don't agree with your overall point.

It's interesting to see your best XIs of the '90s, '00s and '10s; we see an increasing number of black players. That would suggest the quota system is working in producing black players of Test quality. The racial quota is not new, it's just an expansion; it's been working so far, so who's to say it won't keep working?

The formal quota was introduced in 2015. After Bavuma and Rabada were already in the team

 

[The_Reaper]

This also shouldn't be seen in isolation as some sort of attack on cricket. This is part of a process that is happening at every level throughout the country.

As a convenient deflection from Zuma's poor leadership

 

[Gough]

As a convenient deflection from Zuma's poor leadership

Zuma's a punk, but that doesn't change the fact that what's happening is necessary. Cyril Ramaphosa is my hope for the future.

 

[JackOutback]

The formal quota was introduced in 2015. After Bavuma and Rabada were already in the team

Yes, but an informal quota has been place for a while now.

 

[The_Reaper]

Yes, but an informal quota has been place for a while now.

Informal is better than formal.

It allows more flexibility for one and two players still think they might have a chance

 

[PhatBoy]

The question originally posed was "Are South Africa's racial quotas hurting the game?" I would respond by asking "Are South Africa's racial quotas hurting South Africa?"

Here are their full test results over the last five years:

2016/17 SA vs SL SA 2-0, still in progress
2016/17 SA vs Aus SA 2-1
2016/17 SA vs NZ SA 1-0
2015/16 Ind vs SA Ind 3-0
2015/16 Ban vs SA 0-0 (both tests washed out)
2014/15 Zim vs SA SA 1-0
2014/15 SL vs SA SA 1-0
2014/15 SA vs WI SA 2-0
2013/14 SA vs Ind SA 1-0
2013/14 SA vs Aus Aus 2-1
2013/14 SA vs Ind SA 1-0
2013/14 Pak vs SA 1-1
2011/12 SA vs SL SA 2-1
2011/12 SA vs Aus 1-1

Crisis? What crisis?

Left out England last summer. 2-1 loss.

I don't think their efforts over the best part of a decade prior to that loss in India will be fully appreciated for a while yet.

Statistically as far as eras go, only the West Indies and Australians from their respective golden eras have enjoyed more success over such a time

 

[STFU Donnie]

Left out England last summer. 2-1 loss.

I don't think their efforts over the best part of a decade prior to that loss in India will be fully appreciated for a while yet.

Statistically as far as eras go, only the West Indies and Australians from their respective golden eras have enjoyed more success over such a time

Bugger!

 

[Carl Hooper]

Bavuma ends up averaging 50 in icc2016 lmao

 

[TommyD13]

I just reckon they should throw the quotas in the bin, and just pick your best players. In time your team will have enough coloured people in it if that is what they want. Test cricket is not a political platform, it is a sport for the best XI cricketers in the country. Whether those eleven people happen to be black, white, purple or orange, it does not matter. Are you telling me that coloured children will only be interested in playing cricket if there are coloured people playing in the national team? Absolute garbage!

 

[PhatBoy]

I think perhaps on reflection, as someone who fully supports what they are trying to do, maybe their focus would be better spent on the domestic level rather than the international platform. It will turn less players away if they know that they can get to first class level and have a fair shot at international cricket regardless of race whereas players who can't crack domestic cricket because of their colour may realistically have had no real shot at an international career anyway.

 

[Damon_3388]

I just reckon they should throw the quotas in the bin, and just pick your best players.

Would their team honestly look much different right now?

 

[The_Reaper]

Would their team honestly look much different right now?

At the moment no.

But they are losing their depth which is going to hit them hard given the ages of Amla, De Villiers, Faf, Cook, Duminy, Steyn and Morkel and even Philander.

Realistically speaking if they are going to continue with the quota they have to really start moving those guys on now.

 

[ioppolo]

Would Duminy have played this many internationals if quotas weren't around? I doubt it.

 

[PhatBoy]

Would Duminy have played this many internationals if quotas weren't around? I doubt it.

I think so.

He was used for a lengthy time as a second and even first spinner, and he has been one of those players who seems to make a score just often enough to avoid being dropped

 

[TommyD13]

Would their team honestly look much different right now?

No not necessarily now, but what happens in their next series if Amla retires, and Philander pulls a hamstring? Now say that Rossouw and Abbott did not sign with county teams, they would have been next in line if it wasn't for the quotas (If Morkel and AB weren't fit). But if those two players (Amla and Philander) were unavailable they would have to find two players of international quality, that are non-white. I think that this is the reason that Rossouw and Abbott left (also money and financial security i know). This is just ridiculous and is stopping white players of international quality the opportunity to represent their country! And no it might not affect the make-up of the side if my scenario doesn't happen but why have the quotas enforced then? Why not just pick XI players and if seven happen to have black skin colour then yippee and if they dont who really cares?

 

[The Speaker]

It isn't that it's hurting the first XI right now, it's that it's hurting their first XI in five, ten, twenty years from now.

In the last three months, they've lost Abbott, Roussow, David Wiese, Simon Harmer, Stiaan van Zyl, Hardus Viljoen and Colin Ackermann. CSA is responding by trying to limit the ability of these players to play domestic cricket in South Africa which will, of course, only lower the quality of domestic cricket (even more so than it is already by the quota system already being in place there).

I read an article recently which put forward the thesis that the concept of race is one of science's worst and most damaging inventions. It's hard to argue otherwise.

 

[nobbyiscool]

It isn't that it's hurting the first XI right now, it's that it's hurting their first XI in five, ten, twenty years from now.

In the last three months, they've lost Abbott, Roussow, David Wiese, Simon Harmer, Stiaan van Zyl, Hardus Viljoen and Colin Ackermann. CSA is responding by trying to limit the ability of these players to play domestic cricket in South Africa which will, of course, only lower the quality of domestic cricket (even more so than it is already by the quota system already being in place there).

I read an article recently which put forward the thesis that the concept of race is one of science's worst and most damaging inventions. It's hard to argue otherwise.

If this is true, and it hurts the first XI in 20 years time, it won't be the fault of the Government for implementing the policy - it will be the fault of CSA for continuing to do so little to develop non-white players.

 

[The Speaker]

If this is true, and it hurts the first XI in 20 years time, it won't be the fault of the Government for implementing the policy - it will be the fault of CSA for continuing to do so little to develop non-white players.

The implication being that players leaving has no flow-on effect on the ability of CSA to continue to developing players of the same standard, which is simply untrue.

 

[nobbyiscool]

The implication being that players leaving has no flow-on effect on the ability of CSA to continue to developing players of the same standard, which is simply untrue.

No, that's not the implication at all.

The implication is that the period of "diminished quality" in the first class system should've already occurred. That it may happen now as a result of the Kolpak deals only further goes to show that CSA should've done more to deal with the issue years ago. And if it is worse again 20 years from now, it will have been because CAS continued doing very little.

Regardless, I don't think I agree with what you're saying anyway. As an example, in the mid-90s to mid-00s Australian cricket in the national team and in first class cricket was as good as it has ever been - we know this by the guys who never got an opportunity (or only got limited opportunities) in the national team. If we take your... theory I guess (I can't think of a better word) that strong players help develop strong players, why were we so woefully prepared to replace that national team "golden generation" when Warne, McGrath, Hayden, Gilchrist et al retired? How did having guys like Law, Siddons, Cox, Macgill et al help develop the next generation?

I would argue that it didn't - so the reverse also must be true. If great players doesn't automatically lead to similarly great players, "worse" players don't necessarily lead to even worse players. Coaching and development has a big role to play in it as well, and that is where CSA has continuously let itself and its country down. (Which, incidentally, is the primary reason that Australia weren't adequately prepared to replace that generation in my opinion - we took a while to get the transition away from the cricket academy in Adelaide right. ie. It was about coaching and development, it wasn't about the standard of the Sheffield Shield.)

Edit: The other thing I wanted to add to this is that I think you're assuming that the players in the first class system now are the absolute best players in the country, and that there aren't dozens, possibly hundreds of black kids living in slums that, given the right identification and development from CSA, wouldn't be even better players than those currently in the system. Having seen random cricket games all over the South African countryside, I don't believe that to be the case.

 

[The Speaker]

No, that's not the implication at all.

The implication is that the period of "diminished quality" in the first class system should've already occurred. That it may happen now as a result of the Kolpak deals only further goes to show that CSA should've done more to deal with the issue years ago. And if it is worse again 20 years from now, it will have been because CAS continued doing very little.

Regardless, I don't think I agree with what you're saying anyway. As an example, in the mid-90s to mid-00s Australian cricket in the national team and in first class cricket was as good as it has ever been - we know this by the guys who never got an opportunity (or only got limited opportunities) in the national team. If we take your... theory I guess (I can't think of a better word) that strong players help develop strong players, why were we so woefully prepared to replace that national team "golden generation" when Warne, McGrath, Hayden, Gilchrist et al retired? How did having guys like Law, Siddons, Cox, Macgill et al help develop the next generation?

I would argue that it didn't - so the reverse also must be true. If great players doesn't automatically lead to similarly great players, "worse" players don't necessarily lead to even worse players. Coaching and development has a big role to play in it as well, and that is where CSA has continuously let itself and its country down. (Which, incidentally, is the primary reason that Australia weren't adequately prepared to replace that generation in my opinion - we took a while to get the transition away from the cricket academy in Adelaide right. ie. It was about coaching and development, it wasn't about the standard of the Sheffield Shield.)

We have an entire thread on this forum dedicated to how the lower levels of cricket in Australia have had their guts ripped out, part of which is due to experienced players not sticking around to pass their experience on - which is exactly what will be happening in South Africa with all these players leaving.

To this day, CSA has been in at least a mildly precarious position wrt resources. You can't establish development in areas of a country that have been neglected for years if you have no money, and you won't have money if you don't have a good team (thx to the ICC).

You also do not need to introduce quotas in order to create good development, which is what we have to come back to. The question is whether it is right or wrong for South Africa to introduce quotas based on the colour of people's skin for the cricket team.

 

[PhatBoy]

I can see merit in the argument that this could decimate the future of SA cricket.....

There is a real possibility that it could happen with 5 years.

BUT.

If this works how they want it to, in 20 years there is also the possibility that the bigger than ever pool of cricketers in SA will produce a better side than they've ever had.

Australia love cricket that involves a gamble. SA are taking a huge one but who knows, maybe it will pay off.