Religion Ask a Christian - Part 2

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SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
I cannot be ducked looking up American craziness.
I was actually interested in hearing from Christians here that seem fond of Trump.
But it appears there are none on this forum, which is kind of good in a way.
I assumed there was more of them, than there are here.
We atheists, agnostics and nihilists have scared off most of the Christians. Thread should probs be retitled Ask An Atheist, Agnostic or Nihilist About Christianity. Some On Here Know The Bible Better Anyway.
 

footyfan1978

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We atheists, agnostics and nihilists have scared off most of the Christians. Thread should probs be retitled Ask An Atheist, Agnostic or Nihilist About Christianity. Some On Here Know The Bible Better Anyway.
Why are they scared?
They believe so much in the nuttiness that they think others represent some Satanic entity or they deep down know their beliefs are built on flimsy ideas that rely on them trusting past generations have not led them down the garden path?
 

SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
Why are they scared?
They believe so much in the nuttiness that they think others represent some Satanic entity or they deep down know their beliefs are built on flimsy ideas that rely on them trusting past generations have not led them down the garden path?
I suspect in a lot of cases, the latter.

Having spent my formative years in a deeply Christian environment, then a decade or two not knowing quite what I knew, and finally a decade or two subjecting Christianity to rational examination, I have concluded that it, like all religions, simply doesn't pass logical muster.

I have posted on this thread many times that if religious believers say "I know, it doesn't bear logical examination, but it works for me" there is nothing that anyone can criticise about that declaration.

But most of them insist on pretending that the Enlightenment didn't come along and say "actually, we now have much better answers for a lot of those questions than religion ever does" and are still trying to have a foot in both camps, arguing complete woo-woo stuff one minute, and then science the next.

Can't be done, and I think a lot of them eventually bow out quielty rather than confront that reality. Full marks to Vdubs for staying the course, even though I don't feel he/she has logically supported many of his/her claims.
 

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Pie eyed

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You already know.

Look man.. I'll give you another case scenario and that man.. say you were on X Factor.. the Voice.. or whatever.. and you decided to sing a Dua Lipa track man.. are you gonna give us Dua Lipa's version or your version? What's Guy Sebastian gonna think and that man? What's Guy Sebastian gonna think and that man?

If you give us Dua Lipa.. are you gonna win and that man? No. If you gave us your version? You're a chance.

You see.. no one is there to save you from yourself man.. the strength.. the beauty.. the courage.. the honor.. comes from within you man.. you are the universe man.. you are the universe.
LOL.
Get off the bongs Gimp, or at least share one with SBD. Man.
 

BringouttheGimp

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PAOK of SALONIKA LIVERPOOL
LOL.
Get off the bongs Gimp, or at least share one with SBD. Man.

If someone ever said to me.. I'm here to save you from yourself.. you know what I'd ask em.. is someone here to save you from yourself as well and that man? Are you God?
 
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CM9000

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I suspect in a lot of cases, the latter.

Having spent my formative years in a deeply Christian environment, then a decade or two not knowing quite what I knew, and finally a decade or two subjecting Christianity to rational examination, I have concluded that it, like all religions, simply doesn't pass logical muster.

I have posted on this thread many times that if religious believers say "I know, it doesn't bear logical examination, but it works for me" there is nothing that anyone can criticise about that declaration.

But most of them insist on pretending that the Enlightenment didn't come along and say "actually, we now have much better answers for a lot of those questions than religion ever does" and are still trying to have a foot in both camps, arguing complete woo-woo stuff one minute, and then science the next.

Can't be done, and I think a lot of them eventually bow out quielty rather than confront that reality. Full marks to Vdubs for staying the course, even though I don't feel he/she has logically supported many of his/her claims.

You make about three claims in this post that are manifestly untrue, and yet you have the nerve to say that religion doesn’t hold fast before your own scrutiny?

Great to see.
 
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SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
You make about three claims in this post that are manifestly untrue, and yet you have the nerve to say that religion doesn’t hold fast before your own scrutiny?

Great to see.
And yet you somehow fail to even identify these three claims. Kinda proves my point.
 

SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
I have a Christian question.

What happened to Lazarus?

Jesus raised him from the dead, of course. Very impressive.

But is he still alive? Probably not. I'm unaware of any currently living person claiming to be over 2,000 years old.

So presumably he eventually died a second time.

So what does this tell us?

That Jesus's awesome powers had their limits? (Well, obviously. Every day, people who die stay dead. Jesus is clearly not in the business of raising everybody from the dead.)

That Jesus used his awesome powers sparingly? (Presumably predicated on who he cast his piercing super power gaze on?)

That the chroniclers of Jesus's life didn't feel that the ongoing saga of Lazarus's travails were relevant to the meta narrative of Jesus? (Everything in the bible is so relevant, of course. Not an ounce of padding.)

Or perhaps that, somewhat embarrassingly, Lazarus re-karked it shortly after being raised from the dead, and his corpse was quickly whisked from view?

The problem always with "miracles" is deciding where do we draw the boundary around them. (Sometimes I think it's actually much better to just stick to reality and established fact.)
 

SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
Miracles would be the dodgiest part of the religious story.
Yup. I’ve said it many times on here, if Jesus died and rose from the dead, well he obviously wasn’t dead, was he?

Unless you have a different definition of “dead”.

Mine is, y’know, um…. dead. Hard to think of another word less susceptible to ambiguity.

And time and again Christians think I’m making an inconsequential point about dictionary definitions.
 

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CM9000

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And yet you somehow fail to even identify these three claims. Kinda proves my point.

The claims that are untrue are:

1. Religion does not hold up to logical scrutiny.
2. The Enlightenment provided better, more complete and irrefutable answers to the questions religion used to cover, as if it proved to be “progressive“
3. Religious people, once exposed to the pure light of reason and logic, fall to ignorance or justify everything with emotion.

These are all lies, brother. They make a number of axiomatic assumptions about religion, history, the human person, the Enlightenment, religious belief and science that are contentious, at the very least.
 

SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
The claims that are untrue are:

1. Religion does not hold up to logical scrutiny.
2. The Enlightenment provided better, more complete and irrefutable answers to the questions religion used to cover, as if it proved to be “progressive“
3. Religious people, once exposed to the pure light of reason and logic, fall to ignorance or justify everything with emotion.

These are all lies, brother. They make a number of axiomatic assumptions about religion, history, the human person, the Enlightenment, religious belief and science that are contentious, at the very least.
Tosh. The bible is riddled with all manner of nonsense that is demonstrably impossible.

The rise of the scientific method has made a mockery of the religious explanation for the origins of life.

Science doesn't offer answers to everything; it may never do so.

But to accept some sort of unfalsifiable mumbo-jumbo in those instances where science has yet to provide an explanation, is embarrassingly juvenile.

So you believe Christ "ascended" to heaven, yes? Even though we know - through human exploration of space subsequent to the writing of the bible - that within minutes of his elevation he would have suffocated and turned into a man-sized ice block? (The tragic stories of asylum seekers stowing away in aeroplane undercarriages and being frozen solid didn't ever make you go "hang on..."?)

This is just one of hundreds of examples of embarrassingly pre-scientific beliefs that Christians cling to.

Open your eyes. And open your mind.
 

owen87

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So you believe Christ "ascended" to heaven, yes? Even though we know - through human exploration of space subsequent to the writing of the bible - that within minutes of his elevation he would have suffocated and turned into a man-sized ice block? (The tragic stories of asylum seekers stowing away in aeroplane undercarriages and being frozen solid didn't ever make you go "hang on..."?)

Isn't it more of a spiritual ascension than a physical one?
 

CM9000

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Tosh. The bible is riddled with all manner of nonsense that is demonstrably impossible.

The rise of the scientific method has made a mockery of the religious explanation for the origins of life.

Science doesn't offer answers to everything; it may never do so.

But to accept some sort of unfalsifiable mumbo-jumbo in those instances where science has yet to provide an explanation, is embarrassingly juvenile.

So you believe Christ "ascended" to heaven, yes? Even though we know - through human exploration of space subsequent to the writing of the bible - that within minutes of his elevation he would have suffocated and turned into a man-sized ice block? (The tragic stories of asylum seekers stowing away in aeroplane undercarriages and being frozen solid didn't ever make you go "hang on..."?)

This is just one of hundreds of examples of embarrassingly pre-scientific beliefs that Christians cling to.

Open your eyes. And open your mind.

Before you can make such a claim, however, you have to justify why one should hold fast to the conviction that there is only one physical reality, with nothing beyond it. This is physicalism, and it requires justification beyond simple assertion. Because you‘re questioning the bodily ascension into heaven of Jesus on this basis.

I won’t be able to engage in a discussion at the moment, however - I’m a bit busy at the moment.

If you’re interested in the ways in which philosophers have critically examined religion, I would recommend A New History of Philosophy by Anthony Kenny, where he presents a good overview of the topic. There’s also this article on the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: Religion and Science (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

You should be able to find more resources from the bibliography of that article which examine the relationship between science and religion.
 

SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
Before you can make such a claim, however, you have to justify why one should hold fast to the conviction that there is only one physical reality, with nothing beyond it. This is physicalism, and it requires justification beyond simple assertion. Because you‘re questioning the bodily ascension into heaven of Jesus on this basis.

I won’t be able to engage in a discussion at the moment, however - I’m a bit busy at the moment.

If you’re interested in the ways in which philosophers have critically examined religion, I would recommend A New History of Philosophy by Anthony Kenny, where he presents a good overview of the topic. There’s also this article on the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: Religion and Science (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

You should be able to find more resources from the bibliography of that article which examine the relationship between science and religion.
Oh I’m fine with the notion that we may one day discover the existence of a parallel physical reality.

Just that so far, Christianity has provided zero evidence of it.

And given the last revision of the bible was some two thousand year ago, it’s pretty unlikely to happen now.

We’ve moved beyond Christianity, and probably most religions for that matter. Religions served an evolutionary purpose for millenia, but increasingly less so now.
 

owen87

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I recall the bible is pretty clear it was supposedly a physical ascension up into the sky.

the daily show no GIF by The Daily Show with Trevor Noah
 

Roylion

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What happened to Lazarus?

Jesus raised him from the dead, of course. Very impressive.

Pure invention by the author or authors of the Gospel of John' of course.

Matthew, Mark and Luke don't mention the raising of Lazarus (Eleazer) at all, which surely they would have as it would have been an excellent demonstration of the 'miraculous' powers of Jesus. Even more tellingly the Synoptic Gospels do include passages concerning the activities of the sisters of Lazarus but fail to mention their brother's resurrection. The author / authors of John almost certainly have combined elements from several, perhaps originally unrelated, stories into a single narrative for theological purposes.

These stories derive originally from parts of Mark 14, Matthew 26, Luke 7, Luke 10, Luke 16 as well as other stories of Jairus' daughter (Mark 5, Matthew 9 and Mark 8) and the raising of the son of the widow of Nain in Luke 7 (which in turn is close copy of the story of Elijah rasing the son of the widow of Zarephath in 1 Kings and Elisha raising the son of the woman of Shunem in 2 Kings).
 
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Vdubs

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Pure invention by the author or authors of the Gospel of John' of course.

Matthew, Mark and Luke don't mention the raising of Lazarus (Eleazer) at all, which surely they would have as it would have been an excellent demonstration of the 'miraculous' powers of Jesus. Even more tellingly the Synoptic Gospels do include passages concerning the activities of the sisters of Lazarus but fail to mention their brother's resurrection. The author / authors of John almost certainly have combined elements from several, perhaps originally unrelated, stories into a single narrative for theological purposes.

These stories derive originally from parts of Mark 14, Matthew 26, Luke 7, Luke 10, Luke 16 as well as other stories of Jairus' daughter (Mark 5, Matthew 9 and Mark 8) and the raising of the son of the widow of Nain in Luke 7 (which in turn is close copy of the story of Elijah rasing the son of the widow of Zarephath in 1 Kings and Elisha raising the son of the woman of Shunem in 2 Kings).
Even more basis for the validity imho.
If all gospels were nearly the same, surely that would ring alarm bells.
 

Roylion

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Even more basis for the validity imho.

Absolutely not. You don't think that the earlier Gospels having mentioned Lazarus' sisters wouldn't have mentioned Lazarus being raised from the dead if such a remarkable event was actually historical? Only the Gospel written furtherest from the time of the alleged events so described actually mentions it.
If all gospels were nearly the same, surely that would ring alarm bells.

Four different sources mentioning the same event would actually increase the likelhood of it being true wouldnt it? Having said that its clear that Matthew and Luke used Mark as a source and embellished the stories found in Mark.
 

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