Win Prizes Ask an Atheist - Shoe's on the other foot now!

[Gethelred]

Alright, we're going to have a change of tack.

As I'm sure you can see, the thread title has been changed to Ask an Atheist. People who have a question to ask of the atheists who populate this thread - more than the christians do - should feel free to ask questions of them.

If you've still got a live question posted to a christian, feel free to continue conversing for the time being.

Standard board rules apply.

 

[travelli]

I hate seeing woman's rights confused with abortion rights.

 

[carltonchelsea]

I hate seeing woman's rights confused with abortion rights.

Don’t be a woman then and don’t get an abortion.
Simples

 

[Total Power]

I question why it means so much to you thst some of us have faith. Nothing we say will ever convince you et al. It's your choice- you don't have to believe, nobody is coercing you. So please respect that those of us who believe will not be convicted by what you deem to be inescapable facts. Despite what you dredge up, the Bible and the gospels are alive, meaningful and believable to us.
What is reading the Bible with HEARD-? a variant of heart and head?

Did Jesus Say He’d Return within His Disciples’ Lifetimes?

It seems like Jesus thought his second coming would happen within a matter of weeks or months. Did he?

www.thegospelcoalition.org

What did Jesus mean when He said, “this generation will not pass”? | GotQuestions.org

What did Jesus mean when He said, “this generation will not pass”? The generation that Jesus was speaking to did pass, and the events have not yet occurred.

www.gotquestions.org

LOL...The answer is the Great Commission? Oh dear oh dear!!!! the same GC that was added in the later half of the 5th century by the Church to evangelize the the remaining Pagans?

HOLY CRAP! lol. Your posts now show, bias, not just bias, but more desperation than bias. GC got nothing to do with this verse, joining the two is simply stupid, dumb and extreme lunacy.

Even if i admit in the authencitiy of the GC it's still a hopeless argument. Saying you need to love me more than your family, saying follow me first, saying preach my messages above everyone else, is a sign a of narcissism. The idea back then was to save people from going to hell, hence accept Jesus or be a be a sinner and rot in hell.This is what Eusebius advised Constantine to do, but the idea of Original sin came a lot later, hence GC was a byproduct of that.

Either way:

But i will make it easier for you. While no one is obligated to take C.S. Lewis as authoritative, the fact that such a serious Christian writer had no real answer to this question except for "I guess Jesus was wrong?" is illustrative of the problem here. He referred to the "some standing here" passage as the most embarrassing in the whole Bible. You made an embarrassing effort in trying to justify this error through the links you posted, which plays nothing but verbal gymnastics without producing any evidence.

Either way, we all know how the Bible written and by whom. As an aside to this, it was apparently a widespread belief that Peter wouldn't die before Jesus returned, either. The Gospel of John, written after Peter's death, explicitly makes the statement that the rumor existed and then refutes it, saying that Jesus didn't say that Peter wouldn't die, only that it was unimportant whether Jesus decided to let Peter die or not (John 21:23).

See there are also other interpretations that don't sit well with you, but so be it- He certainly is yet to return.

These are not interpretations, these are bogus apologist excuses.

He was supposed to return when the end times begun. NT writers believed End times are here.

“The end of all things is near…” (1 Peter 4:7)


“Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.” (1 John 2:18)


“…the coming of the Lord is near. …the Judge is standing right at the door.” (James 5:8, 9)


John recorded that his visions also foretold a return of Jesus near to his day. He was repeatedly told throughout his visions that Jesus was about to return soon. It is unreasonable to think that “near”, “soon” and “coming quickly” could mean thousands of years in the future especially in light of Jesus’ own prophecy that some of his listeners and the high priest would still be alive to see him return.


Apologist excuses won't get you out of failed prophecies by your Lord.

Nothing we say will ever convince you et al.

I am not here to be convinced, nor i am here to convince you. I am here to have a discussion to see if you have any substance in your argument or not, and as i suspected, your googled articles fall well short of answers. Just like a few attempts you made including 'death is a result of sin', intelligent design' , 'isiah prophecy' etc etc.

Just like Christians don't think Mohammed split the moon, although every Muslim believes this to be true, i see no substance in your argument. Your arguments are a 'special pleading' argument, it actually has zero substance (and yes i know you never made any claims about Islam, although if Islam is right, Christianity is wrong by default).

People who do NOT change their opinions based on available evidence are fools, anti vaxxers, flat earthers etc etc. Vast majority of the people i know, will never change their opinion once they started to believe in something (anything that is, not just religion). That's how human psychology works.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I question why it means so much to you thst some of us have faith. Nothing we say will ever convince you et al. It's your choice- you don't have to believe, nobody is coercing you. So please respect that those of us who believe will not be convicted by what you deem to be inescapable facts. Despite what you dredge up, the Bible and the gospels are alive, meaningful and believable to us.
What is reading the Bible with HEARD-? a variant of heart and head?

Did Jesus Say He’d Return within His Disciples’ Lifetimes?

It seems like Jesus thought his second coming would happen within a matter of weeks or months. Did he?

www.thegospelcoalition.org

What did Jesus mean when He said, “this generation will not pass”? | GotQuestions.org

What did Jesus mean when He said, “this generation will not pass”? The generation that Jesus was speaking to did pass, and the events have not yet occurred.

www.gotquestions.org

See there are also other interpretations that don't sit well with you, but so be it- He certainly is yet to return.

Maybe Jesus was the son of god and all that, but he has issues with punctuality?

 

[Total Power]

Maybe Jesus was the son of god and all that, but he has issues with punctuality?

The propheciees in Bible makes me and my BTC predictions look like Nostradamus. Either way Christians will always try to reverse engineer a verse, you have seen in this thread, tens have tried to label Isiah as a prophecy of coming of Christ. VD included. Unfortunately , none of them have read Isiah properly to make this call, when i post the actual context that it had got nothing to do with Jesus, all i get is abuse.

 

[Total Power]

The perfect get out of jail card. DNA test fails...goddidit.

That's the thing. They can't ever be wrong. You see (for example)… prophecies in the Bible mean nothing! It will always be so vague that i can just interpret it to mean whatever i want. Or it will be one not able to be proven so i can say it’s fulfilled but you can’t prove it.

The ones that did fail , i will interpret or deny my way out of it. Egypt destroyed? No. Tyre destroyed? No. Sodom & Gomorrah rebuilt by God? NO! So for these, let’s just pretend God never said it and let’s ignore it and move on.

jesus makes a clear prophecy on his return, let’s ignore it & say he said nobody knows the time. Yes he did say nobody knows the exact date but it would be before they died. It’s like if i say I’m going to my grandmas this week but idk what day… it’s still a clear defined time. Jesus said he’d be back before the disciples could finish fleeing from house to house so there is no HONEST way to get out of this failed prophecy. However, if we ignore it and pretend he didn’t say it, it can go away.

jesus was totally supposed to die, totally not supposed to be back before those in front of him tasted death, totally not supposed to be back before the disciples fleed persecution, totally not supposed to be back before that generation passed, Paul totally didn’t mean it when he said people shouldn’t get married as the end was near. Just because the Bible says all of this stuff, it doesn’t mean it says it….or means it.

 

[Vdubs]

The propheciees in Bible makes me and my BTC predictions look like Nostradamus. Either way Christians will always try to reverse engineer a verse, you have seen in this thread, tens have tried to label Isiah as a prophecy of coming of Christ. VD included. Unfortunately , none of them have read Isiah properly to make this call, when i post the actual context that it had got nothing to do with Jesus, all i get is abuse.

Interesting. ISAIAH. None have read Isiah. But fwiw, we have read Isaiah properly. You have your pov based on ....? You read alternative explanations to suit your argument and now believe them as if gospel, no pun intended. Not abusing you at all; but the prophesies ARE there.

 

[Total Power]

Interesting. ISAIAH. None have read Isiah. But fwiw, we have read Isaiah properly. You have your pov based on ....? You read alternative explanations to suit your argument and now believe them as if gospel, no pun intended. Not abusing you at all; but the prophesies ARE there.

I have addressed this multiple times and corrected multiple posters here. Isiah is NOT about Jesus, never was, never will be. No amount of Christian lies and BS can change this.

Win Prizes - Ask an Atheist - Shoe's on the other foot now!

Alright, we're going to have a change of tack. As I'm sure you can see, the thread title has been changed to Ask an Atheist. People who have a question to ask of the atheists who populate this thread - more than the christians do - should feel free to ask questions of them. If you've still got...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Vdubs]

I have addressed this multiple times and corrected multiple posters here. Isiah is NOT about Jesus, never was, never will be. No amount of Christian lies and BS can change this.

Win Prizes - Ask an Atheist - Shoe's on the other foot now!

Alright, we're going to have a change of tack. As I'm sure you can see, the thread title has been changed to Ask an Atheist. People who have a question to ask of the atheists who populate this thread - more than the christians do - should feel free to ask questions of them. If you've still got...

www.bigfooty.com

Luke 14-21 :Jesus Rejected at Nazareth​

14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15 He was teaching in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.

16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favour.”
20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

22 All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” they asked.

23 Jesus said to them, “Surely you will quote this proverb to me: ‘Physician, heal yourself!’ And you will tell me, ‘Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.’”

 

[Total Power]

Luke 14-21 :Jesus Rejected at Nazareth​

14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15 He was teaching in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.

16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favour.”
20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

22 All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” they asked.

23 Jesus said to them, “Surely you will quote this proverb to me: ‘Physician, heal yourself!’ And you will tell me, ‘Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.’”

Huh? relevance? I was talking about Isiah.

Anyway, Luke 14:26 is my favourite NT verse. No one is stupid enough to fall for this. Even the dumbest of the dumb.

 

[Vdubs]

Huh? relevance? I was talking about Isiah.

Anyway, Luke 14:26 is my favourite NT verse. No one is stupid enough to fall for this. Even the dumbest of the dumb.

you haven't read this properly- it's clearly Jesus referring to Isaiah about Himself

 

[Total Power]

you haven't read this properly- it's clearly Jesus referring to Isaiah about Himself

No it isn't and going by your track record of trying to revers engineer verses, you are wrong, again.

I have posted evidence from Isiah that the reference to the Messiah was not Jesus. No matter what you say will not change this.

Jesus did not fulfill ANYTHING the Messiah was supposed to do. Is Israel liberated? till today?

 

[Vdubs]

No it isn't and going by your track record of trying to revers engineer verses, you are wrong, again.

I have posted evidence from Isiah that the reference to the Messiah was not Jesus. No matter what you say will not change this.

Jesus did not fulfill ANYTHING the Messiah was supposed to do. Is Israel liberated? till today?

Your choice to remain in your state of denial about the possibility, and believing whatever alternative suits your mindset.
We agree to disagree on what we believe.
Do not try and suggest you have evidence, and I am going on blind faith wrt Jesus and prophesy in Isaiah.

 

[Total Power]

Your choice to remain in your state of denial about the possibility, and believing whatever alternative suits your mindset.
We agree to disagree on what we believe.
Do not try and suggest you have evidence, and I am going on blind faith wrt Jesus and prophesy in Isaiah.

LOL state of denial, oh the irony. This comes from a man who tried to tell us a verse added in 575 AD by the Church is the proof that what Jesus said didn't mean what it's supposed to mean. LOL despite the NT authors, Paul, stressing the end times are very close. They are all wrong of course.

Of course i have evidence, Isiah , the whole chapter itself. Isiah kept mentioning Jacob and Israel, over and over again, not one mention of anyone special like Jesus.

Isiah ALSO states that GOD (YWH) will remain unknown to humans. Nek minit, Jesus. Whatever NT says about OT is actually IRRELEVANT. NT was written by people trying to confirm Christianity, specially John. Hardly relevant.

So if Jesus is supposed to be the one mentioned by Isiah, he has truly liberated the Jews then? Jews were the most persecuted for the next 2,000 years.

So if you are right, the prophecy failed then.

You are ******ed, both ways.

You are blind, i have seen that, i have no issues with what you choose to belief, but don't claim you have evidence, cause you simply don;t.

Read, Torah and the Talmud for a greater context on this, Isiah was never about Jesus. Jews will wait for their Messiah to be liberated.

I don't believe in anything, definitely not plagiarized mythology aimed at converting people anyway.

But the proof is in the pudding, Jews remain the most persecuted through our history. FACT!! No amount of bullshit from you or Christian writers will change this.

 

[Vdubs]

LOL state of denial, oh the irony. This comes from a man who tried to tell us a verse added in 575 AD by the Church is the proof that what Jesus said didn't mean what it's supposed to mean. LOL despite the NT authors, Paul, stressing the end times are very close. They are all wrong of course.

Of course i have evidence, Isiah , the whole chapter itself. Isiah kept mentioning Jacob and Israel, over and over again, not one mention of anyone special like Jesus.

Isiah ALSO states that GOD (YWH) will remain unknown to humans. Nek minit, Jesus. Whatever NT says about OT is actually IRRELEVANT. NT was written by people trying to confirm Christianity, specially John. Hardly relevant.

So if Jesus is supposed to be the one mentioned by Isiah, he has truly liberated the Jews then? Jews were the most persecuted for the next 2,000 years.

So if you are right, the prophecy failed then.

You are ******ed, both ways.

You are blind, i have seen that, i have no issues with what you choose to belief, but don't claim you have evidence, cause you simply don;t.

Read, Torah and the Talmud for a greater context on this, Isiah was never about Jesus. Jews will wait for their Messiah to be liberated.

I don't believe in anything, definitely not plagiarized mythology aimed at converting people anyway.

But the proof is in the pudding, Jews remain the most persecuted through our history. FACT!! No amount of bullshit from you or Christian writers will change this.

Is there some stubborn reason you refuse to even spell properly the name of the book we are discussing?
ISAIAH.
Over and over.

 

[Total Power]

Is there some stubborn reason you refuse to even spell properly the name of te book we are discussing?
ISAIAH.
Over and over.

Auto correct on my I-pad, i have employees with that name.

But quality reply, as usual.

To be clear, i do not really care what you believe in, we are here to have a discussion, what you believe in your personal life is entirely your business.

Do tell, are the Jews liberated? why are the jews waiting for their Messiah then? read the Torah, the number 1 job of the mssiah was to liberate the jews. Has this happened???

 

[Evolved1]

I hate seeing woman's rights confused with abortion rights.

Some pro-choice Jews view it as a religious rights issue.

Some Jewish groups blast the end of Roe as a violation of their religious beliefs

According to the Women's Rabbinic Network, some of the religion's most sacred texts — the Torah, the Mishnah and the Talmud — view a fetus as a soul only once it's born.

www.npr.org

 

[Evolved1]

Is there some stubborn reason you refuse to even spell properly the name of te book we are discussing?
ISAIAH.
Over and over.

When you read the alleged prophicies in context, it becomes clear they have nothing to do with Jesus. Why not ask the Jews what those passages mean since it's their book?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Can someone explain what "successful" prophecies are supposed to show? I don't even get the concept.

- The prophet is amazing because he/she knows what's going to happen in the future? (But they won't tell me who's going to win the third race at Rosehill and they didn't tell me that I was going to be hit by a bus?)

- He/she shows that everything in our lives is scripted. So you need to believe the bible?

Leaving aside the whole issue of educated guesses (not to mention sheer luck), what are we supposed to be being impressed by?

 

[Total Power]

Can someone explain what "successful" prophecies are supposed to show? I don't even get the concept.

- The prophet is amazing because he/she knows what's going to happen in the future? (But they won't tell me who's going to win the third race at Rosehill and they didn't tell me that I was going to be hit by a bus?)

- He/she shows that everything in our lives is scripted. So you need to believe the bible?

Leaving aside the whole issue of educated guesses (not to mention sheer luck), what are we supposed to be being impressed by?

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.

C.S Lewis said this is one of the worst things about the Bible. Prophecies, specially failed ones, but VD tries to google answers from apologists. For example, above, That generation passed away a long time ago and none of those events took place. The same prediction is made in mark 13:24/33 and Luke 21:25. Apologists like VD will argue Jesus is referring to a non-dead generation that was alive 2000 years ago but is somehow also alive today. They will likely say that when Jesus used the word generation, he didn't literally mean that generation. (You'd then have to wonder why he bothered saying it at all if he didn't really mean it.) This isn't as certain of a mistake as the other example, but it still requires an elaborate series of mental gymnastics to resolve.

 

[Roylion]

When you read the alleged prophicies in context, it becomes clear they have nothing to do with Jesus. Why not ask the Jews what those passages mean since it's their book?

Christians wrote their Gospels with clear purposes in mind - one of which was that their Messiah (at that time one of many messiahs) would be seen as the true Messiah because he fulfilled OT prophecy. (Matthew 16:13-20, Mark 8:27–30 and Luke 9:18–20 )

Biblical 'prophecy' in general is often so vague, it can be interpreted in a number of ways. The interpreter can therefore find a meaning in the words that is true to them.

To give credibility to their new found religion, New Testament writers often distorted Old Testament scriptures or quoted them entirely out of context to shape them into "prophecies" that seemed to fit contemporary people and events they were writing about. For example the 'virgin' birth (Isaiah 7:14) and the "prophecy" that Messiah was going to be a Nazarene, which of course is derived very loosely from Isaiah 1:11. Matthew 2:23 "And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, “He shall be called a Nazarene.”

Another good example of this type is the "prophecy" by Micah, that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem. (Micah 5:2)

Christopher Hitchens summed 'prophecy' up as such

"If you pick up any of the four Gospels and read them at random, it will not be long before you learn that such and such an action or saying, attributed to Jesus, was done so that an ancient prophecy should come true. If it should seem odd that an action should be deliberately performed in order that a foretelling be vindicated, that is because it is odd. And it is necessarily odd because, just like the Old Testament, the "New" one is also a work of crude carpentry, hammered together long after its purported events, and full of improvised attempts to make things come out right."

 

[Evolved1]

Can someone explain what "successful" prophecies are supposed to show? I don't even get the concept.

- The prophet is amazing because he/she knows what's going to happen in the future? (But they won't tell me who's going to win the third race at Rosehill and they didn't tell me that I was going to be hit by a bus?)

- He/she shows that everything in our lives is scripted. So you need to believe the bible?

Leaving aside the whole issue of educated guesses (not to mention sheer luck), what are we supposed to be being impressed by?

The idea is that statistically it should be near impossible for the prophecies to be fulfilled by chance, so there's indisputable evidence Christianity is real. That's certainly the way fundamentalist apologists look at it.

It seems far more probable and logical to me that fulfillment of prophecies was a retro fit. Someone pulled passages from the old testament and made their messiah fit into them.

Passages from the old testament and quoted in the new testament as evidence for Jesus usually have nothing to do with the messiah.

 

[Vdubs]

The idea is that statistically it should be near impossible for the prophecies to be fulfilled by chance, so there's indisputable evidence Christianity is real. That's certainly the way fundamentalist apologists look at it.

It seems far more probable and logical to me that fulfillment of prophecies was a retro fit. Someone pulled passages from the old testament and made their messiah fit into them.

Passages from the old testament and quoted in the new testament as evidence for Jesus usually have nothing to do with the messiah.

BUT... WHAT IF...
.... have you ever pondered the possibility that it is true, that Jesus was the messiah prophesied in Isaiah?
And what if it is?
Again, there is nothing lost for believers, is there?
Can you imagine life without this beautiful piece of music?



Interesting read about Handel's Messiah

Messiah (Handel) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Roylion]

BUT... WHAT IF...
.... have you ever pondered the possibility that it is true, that Jesus was the messiah prophesied in Isaiah?

Why should it be considered as true? What's the supporting evidence other than an assertion made by a ancient writer?

And what if it is?

What if Thor and Odin were actual deities?

Can you imagine life without this beautiful piece of music?

Well yes...I can. There are other beautiful pieces of music that do not rely on any religious belief.

 

[carltonchelsea]

BUT... WHAT IF...
.... have you ever pondered the possibility that it is true, that Jesus was the messiah prophesied in Isaiah?
And what if it is?
Again, there is nothing lost for believers, is there?
Can you imagine life without this beautiful piece of music?



Interesting read about Handel's Messiah

Messiah (Handel) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can’t imagine that Jesus wasn’t the messiah, so why the * should us non christo-fascists entertain the idea that a fictional story be true?
On Handel, or any religious piece of music for that matter, insert any inspiration and you get the same piece of music or art.
Richard Dawkins has addressed this matter more than adequately!