Game Day Carlton Reserves Game Day Discussion Rnds 2 - 19

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4flagsin5yrs

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Highlighted is literally the reason he's on the outer, it's the reason his footy is failing him.

He holds back, he doesn't go hard, he runs around contested ground balls and is unwilling to take tackles and he let's the opposition run through contests without checking them. It's not his body not letting him do things it's his mind.

He's made it so far because of skills and smarts but if you aren't willing to embrace the contact side of the game AFL will catch you out.

He's literally not hard enough at the contest and that's why we won't play him in the midfield.

10 tackles and bugger all possessions, probably holding back and letting the opposition have first crack at the footy like I see all the time, well at least he's stopping them because he has been letting them get through him at in AFL side.

It's quite simple for SPS, get the intensity and physicality up or move on. It's not on us it's on him.

It's frustrating because he has the talent to be a top player but as many great coaches have said, it's all between the ears.
BS, if he did all that, he wouldn't have strung 3 games back to back, let alone how many?

I just reckon SPS is jack of being played out of position.

That's on Teague.
 

gbatman

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BS, if he did all that, he wouldn't have strung 3 games back to back, let alone how many?

I just reckon SPS is jack of being played out of position.

That's on Teague.
I said all this last season. SPS won't best 22 if his game does not progress and these key areas are the ones he needed to progress in. Low and behold he's not best 22. He's been moved to an outside role at half back to mature and develop and because his poor physicality keeps him out of our midfield. Docherty returning, Newman returning, Williams recruitment and then being put in defence. Stocker progressing past him, he's lost his spot.

There is clearly no spot in our midfield for him unless he improves. I'd love to have him in because he has good skills but I can't stomach the softness in his game.

SPS may want to play midfield, that's good, but his game is way off. He's proven nothing. His high skilled non-contact brand of footy at half back hardly says "put me in the midfield" just as his dreadfully low possession game in the twos.

Where his footy is at is not on Teague, it's on him. His footy is mediocre to poor and it's nothing to do with his position, it's to do with how he goes about it, how he plays, those things aren't influenced by what position or what level you play they are influenced by the player.

He's in the twos, he's in the midfield, if he's got what it takes he'll be banging on the door and killing it back there.

I tell you what, he's got all the talent but he's not hard enough, if he was his footy would have flourished at half back, he would have got midfield time and that would have progressed. However he's in the 2s he's playing midfield, if he's good enough, and I don't mean skill wise, he'll go well and won't be there long.

Here's his chance to prove himself In the 2s. Teague hasn't ruined him. If he's any good he'll play well if not he moves on.
 
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Gethelred

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I said all this last season. SPS won't best 22 if his game does not progress and these key areas are the ones he needed to progress in. Low and behold he's not best 22. He's been moved to an outside role at half back to mature and develop and because his poor physicality keeps him out of our midfield. Docherty returning, Newman returning, Williams recruitment and then being put in defence. Stocker progressing past him, he's lost his spot.

There is clearly no spot in our midfield for him unless he improves. I'd love to have him in because he has good skills but I can't stomach the softness in his game.

SPS may want to play midfield, that's good, but his game is way off. He's proven nothing. His high skilled non-contact brand of footy at half back hardly says "put me in the midfield" just as his dreadfully low possession game in the twos.

Where his footy is at is not on Teague, it's on him. His footy is mediocre to poor and it's nothing to do with his position, it's to do with how he goes about it, how he plays, those things aren't influenced by what position or what level you play they are influenced by the player.

He's in the twos, he's in the midfield, if he's got what it takes he'll be banging on the door and killing it back there.

I tell you what, he's got all the talent but he's not hard enough, if he was his footy would have flourished at half back, he would have got midfield time and that would have progressed. However he's in the 2s he's playing midfield, if he's good enough, and I don't mean skill wise, he'll go well and won't be there long.

Here's his chance to prove himself In the 2s. Teague hasn't ruined him. If he's any good he'll play well if not he moves on.
I think this is some interesting reading, but I object to a few things in both this and the prior post.

He's proven, over the course of a few years, that when he can actually run he has a bit more straight line pace than he thinks he does. The thing about that VFL performance is that he was in effect playing stationary; he couldn't run, couldn't stride out at all. I think there's a problem with assuming laziness or softness from a player who cannot run as they'd like. He's proven that he has more accumulation in him than he has shown to date, and he's demonstrated that his skills by hand are actually the superior of his skills by foot; we've not seen it much recently because he's been played behind the ball, but his handpasses from inside to a runner are sublime. We know that's not a once off, because it was a feature of his first two seasons at this club and it isn't how he's used behind the ball.

Secondly, to say it isn't on the club that he's not developed as we would wish is to completely ignore that fact that now - right now - is the first time we have had the depth in any of his positions to drop him. It's taken us this long before we had players we could say without dishonesty that he's not playing well enough to play ones footy. At Geelong or Sydney, he'd have played twos until he'd hit the required KPI's for running, conditioning, skills and role knowledge; at Carlton, he's had to learn that on the go against the best. He came off two preseasons in which he had no actual preseason; you think that played no role in his development?

And so we come to your description of him as 'soft'. I think it's interesting who gets labelled soft in the AFL. It makes me wonder something about the person making that claim, the hits they've worn, the level of play they themselves have reached. It makes me curious about how many talent scouts, coaches, clubs, experts in the very thing we're talking about would have to be wrong for that label to stick. But what do they know? We're just anonymous keyboards twittering away on the internet; you could be a Nobel Prize winning writer or Emma Quayle herself for all I know. Then, I think of what I'm seeing (a player that cannot run) and I think of how unfair that label is to be thrown at someone like that.

And then it makes me wonder what I wondered about a week ago, in the VFL thread; the thing that I can't say or refer to or question.

Anyway, here's hoping he does what you say he does, and belts the door down with his performances through the midfield. Like Weitering did.
 
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The Blue Weirdo

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I think this is some interesting reading, but I object to a few things in both this and the prior post.

He's proven, over the course of a few years, that when he can actually run he has a bit more straight line pace than he thinks he does. The thing about that VFL performance is that he was in effect playing stationary; he couldn't run, couldn't stride out at all. I think there's a problem with assuming laziness or softness from a player who cannot run as they'd like. He's proven that he has more accumulation in him than he has shown to date, and he's demonstrated that his skills by hand are actually the superior of his skills by foot; we've not seen it much recently because he's been played behind the ball, but his handpasses from inside to a runner are sublime. We know that's not a once off, because it was a feature of his first two seasons at this club and it isn't how he's used behind the ball.

Secondly, to say it isn't on the club that he's not developed as we would wish is to completely ignore that fact that now - right now - is the first time we have had the depth in any of his positions to drop him. It's taken us this long before we had players we could say without dishonesty that he's not playing well enough to play ones footy. At Geelong or Sydney, he'd have played twos until had hit the required KPI's for running, conditioning, skills and role knowledge; at Carlton, he's had to learn that on the go against the best. He came off two preseason in which he had no actual preseason; you think that played no role in his development?

And so we come to your description of him as 'soft'. I think it's interesting who gets labelled soft in the AFL. It makes me wonder something about the person making that claim, the hits they've worn, the level of play they themselves have reached. It makes me curious about how many talent scouts, coaches, clubs, experts in the very thing we're talking about would have to be wrong for that label to stick. But what do they know? We're just anonymous keyboards twittering away on the internet; you could be a Nobel Prize winning writer or Emma Quayle herself for all I know. Then, I think of what I'm seeing (a player that cannot run) and I think of how unfair that label is to be thrown at someone like that.

And then it makes me wonder what I wondered about a week ago, in the VFL thread; the thing that I can't say or refer to or question.

Anyway, here's hoping he does what you say he does, and belts the door down with his performances through the midfield. Like Weitering did.
I don't think Samo is soft, just lacks urgency and is too slow. He's paying the price for Carlton's obsession with recruiting/drafting so many inside mids the past 3 or 4? seasons. The game has become much quicker and not all shall prosper, just hope he gives 100% for the remainder of the season.
 

Gethelred

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I don't think Samo is soft, just lacks urgency and is too slow. He's paying the price for Carlton's obsession with recruiting/drafting so many inside mids the past 3 or 4? seasons. The game has become much quicker and not all shall prosper, just hope he gives 100% for the remainder of the season.
Jimmae posted in the gameday thread several of SPS's predraft videos, and the difference between the player we saw in the game and the player we saw in them couldn't be more stark. He could not run faster than a jog, and when he tried to extend he couldn't stride out properly at all.

I look at Samo's record in the ones, and he's only ever not played ones since joining the club when injured. I look at a dude who can't run properly and see that he laid 10 tackles, and then I see accusations that he's soft, and it kind of makes me see red.

I think he needs to be given the time we couldn't take at the start of the rebuild to develop him properly into where he and we need him to be.

Every now and then, he's felt confident enough in himself on the day that he has caught someone who had his measure, broken away when someone thought they could catch him etc. That's the problem, because while he's evasive and capable of finding space inside a thimble, unless your name is Pendlebury you cannot get away with standing still in a game of footy, and even Pendles needs Grundy tapping it straight to him for it to work.
 

gbatman

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I think this is some interesting reading, but I object to a few things in both this and the prior post.

He's proven, over the course of a few years, that when he can actually run he has a bit more straight line pace than he thinks he does. The thing about that VFL performance is that he was in effect playing stationary; he couldn't run, couldn't stride out at all. I think there's a problem with assuming laziness or softness from a player who cannot run as they'd like. He's proven that he has more accumulation in him than he has shown to date, and he's demonstrated that his skills by hand are actually the superior of his skills by foot; we've not seen it much recently because he's been played behind the ball, but his handpasses from inside to a runner are sublime. We know that's not a once off, because it was a feature of his first two seasons at this club and it isn't how he's used behind the ball.

Secondly, to say it isn't on the club that he's not developed as we would wish is to completely ignore that fact that now - right now - is the first time we have had the depth in any of his positions to drop him. It's taken us this long before we had players we could say without dishonesty that he's not playing well enough to play ones footy. At Geelong or Sydney, he'd have played twos until had hit the required KPI's for running, conditioning, skills and role knowledge; at Carlton, he's had to learn that on the go against the best. He came off two preseasons in which he had no actual preseason; you think that played no role in his development?

And so we come to your description of him as 'soft'. I think it's interesting who gets labelled soft in the AFL. It makes me wonder something about the person making that claim, the hits they've worn, the level of play they themselves have reached. It makes me curious about how many talent scouts, coaches, clubs, experts in the very thing we're talking about would have to be wrong for that label to stick. But what do they know? We're just anonymous keyboards twittering away on the internet; you could be a Nobel Prize winning writer or Emma Quayle herself for all I know. Then, I think of what I'm seeing (a player that cannot run) and I think of how unfair that label is to be thrown at someone like that.

And then it makes me wonder what I wondered about a week ago, in the VFL thread; the thing that I can't say or refer to or question.

Anyway, here's hoping he does what you say he does, and belts the door down with his performances through the midfield. Like Weitering did.
Your assessment of his skills are on the money, he's a very skilled player, his running ability is also fine, his outside game is pretty good. It's his contested game that lets him down. As for your assessment of what his situation would be at a stronger club, that's on the money too, he would have played a hell of a lot of footy. It's only because he was good enough and we were weak enough that he has played so much AFL however we have come to a point where competition for spots has pushed him out.

I don't like to use the term soft as it's a pretty broad term however his approach on contested situations is poor, he's not physical enough and doesn't commit his body to the contest. I don't think it matters what the person making the judgement has achieved in their own lives, what matters is what they observe and how well they observe it. I go to a game and watch someone get their hands to the footy 10 times and they drop 8 times, I don't need to have been a good mark myself to say that that player has poor hands.

My criticism of SPS is nothing new, in fact it's years old. I see him let players have first access to ground balls because they attack it hard. I see him let players through who should be 'checked', I seem him chose not to run straight lines at ground balls, run around them instead and fumble and the opposition get it or it causes a stoppage that should have been our ball. I've seen players improve in this area, Zac Fisher being a good example.

I look at SPS and I see a player with all the talent in the world who lacks the will to commit 100% to the contest. So you pin him in the outside roles however modern footy has no purely outside roles. The flanks are as close as you get. So what you have here a guy who is half a good footballer half a mediocre one because he has literally half a game, a very good outside game but he is missing an inside game/contested. If you add an inside game to this player you get a very good player but it must come from him and how he choses to go about the contested stuff.

You look at teams like Hawthorn and Geelong of the past, players like that don't get a game until they commit to the contests fully. Teague is clearly big on it and so he must be. Some players just come good in this area like Walsh, he sees the footy, he runs at it at full speed regardless of what is coming, it's what makes him so good. Some have to develop it and it comes with maturity and with SPS it's 50/50 that he will.

It does not matter at all where SPS is played, backline, midfield AFL or VFL. It matters how he plays. Here's his chance to get things right.
 

Gethelred

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Your assessment of his skills are on the money, he's a very skilled player, his running ability is also fine, his outside game is pretty good. It's his contested game that lets him down. As for your assessment of what his situation would be at a stronger club, that's on the money too, he would have played a hell of a lot of footy. It's only because he was good enough and we were weak enough that he has played so much AFL however we have come to a point where competition for spots has pushed him out.

I don't like to use the term soft as it's a pretty broad term however his approach on contested situations is poor, he's not physical enough and doesn't commit his body to the contest. I don't think it matters what the person making the judgement has achieved in their own lives, what matters is what they observe and how well they observe it. I go to a game and watch someone get their hands to the footy 10 times and they drop 8 times, I don't need to have been a good mark myself to say that that player has poor hands.

My criticism of SPS is nothing new, in fact it's years old. I see him let players have first access to ground balls because they attack it hard. I see him let players through who should be 'checked', I seem him chose not to run straight lines at ground balls, run around them instead and fumble and the opposition get it or it causes a stoppage that should have been our ball. I've seen players improve in this area, Zac Fisher being a good example.

I look at SPS and I see a player with all the talent in the world who lacks the will to commit 100% to the contest. So you pin him in the outside roles however modern footy has no purely outside roles. The flanks are as close as you get. So what you have here a guy who is half a good footballer half a mediocre one because he has literally half a game, a very good outside game but he is missing an inside game/contested. If you add an inside game to this player you get a very good player but it must come from him and how he choses to go about the contested stuff.

You look at teams like Hawthorn and Geelong of the past, players like that don't get a game until they commit to the contests fully. Teague is clearly big on it and so he must be. Some players just come good in this area like Walsh, he sees the footy, he runs at it at full speed regardless of what is coming, it's what makes him so good. Some have to develop it and it comes with maturity and with SPS it's 50/50 that he will.

It does not matter at all where SPS is played, backline, midfield AFL or VFL. It matters how he plays. Here's his chance to get things right.
... where I view that as analysis free of context.

My views as to 'soft' come less from what you've done and who you are, and more along the lines of who the fu** do you think you are to make that statement of another person, let alone someone playing AFL footy? You taking the hits he is at training, doing the running he's doing through pain? I feel the echo of SPS's 'lazy' and 'uncommitted to the contest' when I read threads talking about how Cripps is 'out the door', 'disinterested', 'not committed'; I wonder how many people could walk the walk of these players in their shoes.

Nonetheless, your opinion is your own, and we agree on what SPS should do if not on why.
 

gbatman

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... where I view that as analysis free of context.

My views as to 'soft' come less from what you've done and who you are, and more along the lines of who the fu** do you think you are to make that statement of another person, let alone someone playing AFL footy? You taking the hits he is at training, doing the running he's doing through pain? I feel the echo of SPS's 'lazy' and 'uncommitted to the contest' when I read threads talking about how Cripps is 'out the door', 'disinterested', 'not committed'; I wonder how many people could walk the walk of these players in their shoes.

Nonetheless, your opinion is your own, and we agree on what SPS should do if not on why.
Depends how you take it. As a derogatory insult or a description of what's wrong with a players game. As I've said previously I don't like using the term soft because it's too broad and I can be more descriptive however with his deficiencies and how he plays it's hard not to.

I've seen a lot of players never go past the mediocre level either because they have great skills but aren't good enough in a contest or they lack skills but are hard as nails. Put both together and your well on your way to being a good AFL player.

Hopefully he does however it's on him. He's got to play like he really wants it. He's got to become a hard competitor and earn his spot and his position. No more poor excuses blaming the coach and club, he's had more opportunities than most, it's all about how he plays which is up to him now.

I'd love to see him come good however his footy goes nowhere unless his contested game improves and that's the harsh reality, let's hope it does and if he's a quality player it will. IMO he has the rest of the year to prove himself however if he fails to do so he'll be shopped around.
 

Gethelred

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Depends how you take it. As a derogatory insult or a description of what's wrong with a players game. As I've said previously I don't like using the term soft because it's too broad and I can be more descriptive however with his deficiencies and how he plays it's hard not to.

I've seen a lot of players never go past the mediocre level either because they have great skills but aren't good enough in a contest or they lack skills but are hard as nails. Put both together and your well on your way to being a good AFL player.

Hopefully he does however it's on him. He's got to play like he really wants it. He's got to become a hard competitor and earn his spot and his position. No more poor excuses blaming the coach and club, he's had more opportunities than most, it's all about how he plays which is up to him now.

I'd love to see him come good however his footy goes nowhere unless his contested game improves and that's the harsh reality, let's hope it does and if he's a quality player it will. IMO he has the rest of the year to prove himself however if he fails to do so he'll be shopped around.
Problem is, 'soft' is less about what you're doing and who you are.

As for 'no more poor excuses blaming the coach and the club', I'd be interested to see where and when he's offered any. Or are you talking to me there?
 

norway blue

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Problem is, 'soft' is less about what you're doing and who you are.

As for 'no more poor excuses blaming the coach and the club', I'd be interested to see where and when he's offered any. Or are you talking to me there?
Sps tends to sit off contests and hang an arm out . Waiting on the outside to then dinky kick to retain possession. He can tackle and wrap someone up in close . I mean murph buried someone last week. Put him in the gym and retain him. Especially now that cunners is out .


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Gethelred

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Sps tends to sit off contests and hang an arm out . Waiting on the outside to then dinky kick to retain possession. He can tackle and wrap someone up in close . I mean murph buried someone last week. Put him in the gym and retain him. Especially now that cunners is out .


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Is that him, or a stoppage coach's direction? Where is he most dangerous? Getting the ball out, or being the first receiver and finding Walsh, Martin, Williams etc by hand?

In any case, I do not disagree that I'd prefer him getting more inside ball and going for the ball more. What I'd like more than that would be for him to rediscover the burst he had as a junior, because we've never seen it in a Carlton jumper.
 

norway blue

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Is that him, or a stoppage coach's direction? Where is he most dangerous? Getting the ball out, or being the first receiver and finding Walsh, Martin, Williams etc by hand?

In any case, I do not disagree that I'd prefer him getting more inside ball and going for the ball more. What I'd like more than that would be for him to rediscover the burst he had as a junior, because we've never seen it in a Carlton jumper.
Middle and forward of centre is my guess . Where would another team play him and would he hurt us . ?



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Jimmae

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Teague's comments in the post-match seem to suggest there was some kind of scratch match before the game for the CFC listed players that travelled up?

Presumably the spare Sydney and Carlton listed players got together and had a hit out?
 

BigFrizz36

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Teague's comments in the post-match seem to suggest there was some kind of scratch match before the game for the CFC listed players that travelled up?

Presumably the spare Sydney and Carlton listed players got together and had a hit out?
Heard from a player from another team (on radio maybe Richmond) that one of theirs played in a scratch match against Carlton yesterday.
Teague noted that Kennedy and Dow were standards.
 

Harcourt

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Teague's comments in the post-match seem to suggest there was some kind of scratch match before the game for the CFC listed players that travelled up?

Presumably the spare Sydney and Carlton listed players got together and had a hit out?
There was a scratch match on the ground outside the members . didnt see a whole lot .Certainly saw O' Brien who was getting plenty of the ball and attacking the contest .He seemed to be playing back .Kennedy played a lot in the forward line that i saw marking well .
Dow was moving well although although a bit loose with disposal at times .did a banana from back flank into a crowded corridor which luckily ended as a bounce . SPS was being himself . Kemp Ramsey also played but didnt notice much but as i said only saw the last 30 mins and some a little earlier.
Teague and all the coaches and Russell were watching . My son and daughter thought Charlie looking a unit . Fish , Plow also there as spectators .
 

norway blue

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There was a scratch match on the ground outside the members . didnt see a whole lot .Certainly saw O' Brien who was getting plenty of the ball and attacking the contest .He seemed to be playing back .Kennedy played a lot in the forward line that i saw marking well .
Dow was moving well although although a bit loose with disposal at times .did a banana from back flank into a crowded corridor which luckily ended as a bounce . SPS was being himself . Kemp Ramsey also played but didnt notice much but as i said only saw the last 30 mins and some a little earlier.
Teague and all the coaches and Russell were watching . My son and daughter thought Charlie looking a unit . Fish , Plow also there as spectators .
Thanks for the report.


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Jimmae

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There was a scratch match on the ground outside the members . didnt see a whole lot .Certainly saw O' Brien who was getting plenty of the ball and attacking the contest .He seemed to be playing back .Kennedy played a lot in the forward line that i saw marking well .
Dow was moving well although although a bit loose with disposal at times .did a banana from back flank into a crowded corridor which luckily ended as a bounce . SPS was being himself . Kemp Ramsey also played but didnt notice much but as i said only saw the last 30 mins and some a little earlier.
Teague and all the coaches and Russell were watching . My son and daughter thought Charlie looking a unit . Fish , Plow also there as spectators .
So it was Sydney, Adelaide, GWS, Carlton and Richmond players altogether?
 

Harcourt

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So it was Sydney, Adelaide, GWS, Carlton and Richmond players altogether?
Not really sure .One team had red jumpers , Nick Blakey in this team . The light blue team had all the Carlton players in it including Newnes who i forgot to mention . The Carlton players were all wearing white shorts while the rest of the blue team wore red shorts none of whom i recognised although some of these guys played really well . Some one told me there was a Tiger player .
There was sydney and carlton trainers and staff ,but none from other clubs that i saw .
We went to the club function at the pub which was packed so after buying raffle tickets left early to go watch the scratch match . Going again next week so ill keep an eye out . LOB looked the best i have seen him play .
i was amused that Luke Power spent a lot of time right out in the middle of the ground almost in the action .
 

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