Geelong: why are they just not good enough?

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Sttew

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Why post 2006? Is that an important date for us? Why not since the compromised draft era?
2006 only because it was the last time Cats had a single digit draft pick. And since 2006 Tigers have had 5 single digit draft picks including Vickery and Conca.

My point is you can only work with what is at your disposal. The price you pay for sustained top 8 finishes?
 
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Rich01

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2006 only because it was the last time Cats had a single digit draft pick. And since 2006 Tigers have had 5 single digit draft picks including Vickery and Conca.

My point is you can only work with what is at your disposal. The price you pay for sustained top 8 finishes?
Is it?

Or 2017 premiership team only had 2 of our single digit draft picks in it form 2006 onwards (Vlastuin and Martin). Only one more than you guys.

Same with our 2019 premiership team.

But Hardwick also blooded premiership players that were drafted after pick 9- Ellis, Rance, Grimes, Astbury, McIntosh, Butler, Rioli, Edwards, Graham, Castagna, Bolton, Baker, Short, Soldo.

If you are talking sustained top 8 finishes as your criteria, Richmond have achieved this 6 of the last 7 years and still brought the kids through.

It’s just something Scott’s not well known for. He’s prioritised mature age recruits to keep his team up there. Bringing Grigg into a development role is good for your club. They have identified a weakness and looked to address it.
 

gbatman

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Geelong have done an awesome job staying up there. List management has been really good but the majority of their incoming top end talent being older is a ticking time bomb. Continually bringing in good mature players is sustainable but eventually it blows up in your face but if you get a flag out of it it's all worth it and they have been close.

I think they have probably been a tall forward short for a good while and they perhaps don't have the elite speed and pressure in their front half a lot of the better sides have. They seem to have goal kicking but it's the pressure and speed that seems to be important when it comes to big games. This finals series with Lynch domination one end and Hawkins in the grandstand was a massive out. Once Hawkins missed that was it for Geelong.

I think their coach is reasonable but I wouldn't call him a good coach. Made a lot of questionable moves over the years with who he plays where. Blicavs not playing in defence recently. Henderson playing forward at any stage. Ablett playing too much midfield a few years ago and not enough forward. Things like this.

I think another tall forward and a bit of youthful exuberance and a bit of genuine speed and forward pressure. If their midfield holds together then Geelong would take the next step but at this stage they have been just a step behind some really good sides.
 

Sttew

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Is it?

Or 2017 premiership team only had 2 of our single digit draft picks in it form 2006 onwards (Vlastuin and Martin). Only one more than you guys.

Same with our 2019 premiership team.

But Hardwick also blooded premiership players that were drafted after pick 9- Ellis, Rance, Grimes, Astbury, McIntosh, Butler, Rioli, Edwards, Graham, Castagna, Bolton, Baker, Short, Soldo.

If you are talking sustained top 8 finishes as your criteria, Richmond have achieved this 6 of the last 7 years and still brought the kids through.

It’s just something Scott’s not well known for. He’s prioritised mature age recruits to keep his team up there. Bringing Grigg into a development role is good for your club. They have identified a weakness and looked to address it.
Cotchin?
 

Partridge

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2006 only because it was the last time Cats had a single digit draft pick. And since 2006 Tigers have had 5 single digit draft picks including Vickery and Conca.

My point is you can only work with what is at your disposal. The price you pay for sustained top 8 finishes?
I don't think Geelong can use that excuse given the picks we've given up to get established players.

We gave up a first round pick for Henderson, pick 21 for Stanley and so on. Can't turn around now and whinge about not having picks. Some of them - not all - of the ones we did have we chose to give away. It's still clung to like a lifeboat though.
 

Partridge

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Why post 2006? Is that an important date for us? Why not since the compromised draft era? Since this time (2011), we’ve had one. Nick Vlastuin at pick 9.
Our later picks have been developed well by our coach. Which is what I’m calling out on Chris. His record with juniors is horrible.
Which is precisely what we did with the 2007-2011 teams.

These players - Milburn, Ling, Chapman, Enright, Hunt, Johnson, Lonergan, Egan*, West, Stokes, Duncan, and Christensen - were all taken outside the top 20 in the draft. That's certainly not top end talent by any stretch. The big difference was the club was prepared to be patient with them. I get the sense they're not interested in doing that anymore.

And oh yes, some draft picks fail apparently. Therefore it's not a guarantee. No kidding. Still prefer it loading up the team with rejects from other clubs in their mid-to-late 20s. But the stunning success Geelong has experienced with McIntosh, Clark, and Scott Selwood no doubt proves otherwise.

(* - Egan wasn't a premiership player. The rest all were. But he was 99.99% certain to become one if not for injury. Taken at pick 62. That's not an early pick either.)
 

PhatBoy

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Is it?

Or 2017 premiership team only had 2 of our single digit draft picks in it form 2006 onwards (Vlastuin and Martin). Only one more than you guys.

Same with our 2019 premiership team.

But Hardwick also blooded premiership players that were drafted after pick 9- Ellis, Rance, Grimes, Astbury, McIntosh, Butler, Rioli, Edwards, Graham, Castagna, Bolton, Baker, Short, Soldo.

If you are talking sustained top 8 finishes as your criteria, Richmond have achieved this 6 of the last 7 years and still brought the kids through.

It’s just something Scott’s not well known for. He’s prioritised mature age recruits to keep his team up there. Bringing Grigg into a development role is good for your club. They have identified a weakness and looked to address it.
I could be getting my wires crossed but wasn’t this tangent started in response to the notion that Scott and his recruiting team get it wrong too often?
In which case pointing out that Richmond had a fistful of too 10 picks, with only a few of them lasting the distance and being valuable, has a fair amount of relevance
 

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Rich01

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I could be getting my wires crossed but wasn’t this tangent started in response to the notion that Scott and his recruiting team get it wrong too often?
In which case pointing out that Richmond had a fistful of too 10 picks, with only a few of them lasting the distance and being valuable, has a fair amount of relevance
Geelong poster was specific in posting single digit draft picks since 2006 for some reason. Think it suited their argument somehow so I just ran with that.

Regardless of where they were drafted however, Scott’s record developing under 18s straight out of school has been horrendous.
 

Rich01

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Which is precisely what we did with the 2007-2011 teams.

These players - Milburn, Ling, Chapman, Enright, Hunt, Johnson, Lonergan, Egan*, West, Stokes, Duncan, and Christensen - were all taken outside the top 20 in the draft. That's certainly not top end talent by any stretch. The big difference was the club was prepared to be patient with them. I get the sense they're not interested in doing that anymore.

And oh yes, some draft picks fail apparently. Therefore it's not a guarantee. No kidding. Still prefer it loading up the team with rejects from other clubs in their mid-to-late 20s. But the stunning success Geelong has experienced with McIntosh, Clark, and Scott Selwood no doubt proves otherwise.

(* - Egan wasn't a premiership player. The rest all were. But he was 99.99% certain to become one if not for injury. Taken at pick 62. That's not an early pick either.)
Yes. Pre Scott, the Cats were great at developing the kids. There’s been a massive drop off in development of these juniors drafted in since Chris’s appointment as head coach.
 

Catsnlakers

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Chris Scott is the hand break on the car.

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An extremely simplistic view on what has occurred at my club since 2011....My view has remained for years, we have suffered majorly in having a clear weakness in arguably the most important position on the ground ( the ruck ), whilst simply being not good enough....When you view our team from 2007-2011 it would smash the current incarnation of Geelong, so in many ways we have done quite well having still been to 3 PF’s in 4 years!
 

Sttew

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I don't think Geelong can use that excuse given the picks we've given up to get established players.

We gave up a first round pick for Henderson, pick 21 for Stanley and so on. Can't turn around now and whinge about not having picks. Some of them - not all - of the ones we did have we chose to give away. It's still clung to like a lifeboat though.
We didn’t give away top 10 picks
 

catscollector

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Poor list management is another...........................................

I could name quite a few players to delist instead of Brownless!
Oscar is a dud.
Only getting an opportunity because of his oldman. It's what Geelong do for one another. We are the father/son club!
 

This Is Anfield

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Oscar is a dud.
Only getting an opportunity because of his oldman. It's what Geelong do for one another. We are the father/son club!
Has more promise and upside than Narkle, Cockatoo, Blicavs, Gutherie x2, Menegola, Rohan and many "senior" players that should have retired by now...............
Probably end up playing for Melbourne.
 

Partridge

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We didn’t give away top 10 picks
The briefest look at our premiership teams shows quite clearly that we were more than capable of developing superstars from outside the top 10. To act like we now need them is pretty disingenuous, and ignores our own recent history (Steve Johnson, Corey Enright, Cameron Ling, Corey Enright for starters).
 

Partridge

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Geelong poster was specific in posting single digit draft picks since 2006 for some reason. Think it suited their argument somehow so I just ran with that.

Regardless of where they were drafted however, Scott’s record developing under 18s straight out of school has been horrendous.
Wait until you look at his record of developing key forwards and ruckmen.
 

Coach_Required

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Under bomber Thompson I looked at them and they had a hard edge throughout the team, no excuses, tough and determined to get the job done on any day.

These days under Scott they just like to complain and complain again.

Gone are the days of seeing mouths open eating sandwiches during a game, now you just see mouths open like the clowns at the Royal show.

Their culture from within has changed and their focus isn't on the things that used to make them successful.
 

Sttew

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The briefest look at our premiership teams shows quite clearly that we were more than capable of developing superstars from outside the top 10. To act like we now need them is pretty disingenuous, and ignores our own recent history (Steve Johnson, Corey Enright, Cameron Ling, Corey Enright for starters).
We all get that you are on a Chris Scott hate crusade and that you have taken your campaign from the Geelong board to the main board. Apart from the reigning premiership coach in any year you can probably level criticism at any coach. My view is that a club needs to remove a coach if the coach has lost the support of the team and if the club is losing more games than it is winning. As far as I am aware Scott hasn't lost the players, and the side he coaches did finish on top after the H&A. I concede it was not a convincing top of the ladder finish
 

queensberryrules

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An extremely simplistic view on what has occurred at my club since 2011....My view has remained for years, we have suffered majorly in having a clear weakness in arguably the most important position on the ground ( the ruck ), whilst simply being not good enough....When you view our team from 2007-2011 it would smash the current incarnation of Geelong, so in many ways we have done quite well having still been to 3 PF’s in 4 years!
An extremely dillusional view.

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Partridge

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We all get that you are on a Chris Scott hate crusade and that you have taken your campaign from the Geelong board to the main board. Apart from the reigning premiership coach in any year you can probably level criticism at any coach. My view is that a club needs to remove a coach if the coach has lost the support of the team and if the club is losing more games than it is winning. As far as I am aware Scott hasn't lost the players, and the side he coaches did finish on top after the H&A. I concede it was not a convincing top of the ladder finish
Thanks for the advice.

You were the mentioning that we didn't have any top 10 picks. I simply pointed out the fact that not too long ago we were able to recruit and develop magnificent footballers outside the top 10. Same recruiter too. So I don't see why we can't do that again.
 

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