Analysis Lack of genuine midfield depth. No half back accumulators.

[Tas]

When have McDonald, Atley or MacMillan been given a go on the inside? Not some quasi midfield/wing/defender role but a centre square inside role? I'm guessing we could count on one hand the amount of times they've started in the centre square, let alone playing a game or even a quarter in there.

There haven't been a lot of opportunities in recent years, Atley got a look in earlier on, JMac not so much due to injuries. You don't have the same luxury to leave guys in key roles when you are trying to win enough games to make finals and try and get a home final, if we were in rebuild mode and had fewer senior players it is an easier decision to make.

I'm not suggesting they'd be the next Ablett or whatever but surely they'd (and North) be better for the experience.

For better or worse, Swallow and Cunnington are our core inside mids, nobody is really going to be displacing them outside of injuries.

It's my opinion that McDonald will be a mid eventually. I always had hopes that Scott would play Atley in bursts through there but they're all but dead after Saturday night.

I hope he does, and he has plenty of time to show that he is capable, I just am not convinced it is going to be any time soon and he is not going to displace Cunnington, Ziebell or Swallow so what role is he going to play?

I don't know man, I might be just annoyed after the game, but please, why the hell would they rotate other blokes through there? Instead they just worked any mid still standing into the ground. It's just odd.

I think the club in general is a better judge of players than most punters are, if they are not confident that a player can play a role it would be based on pre-season after pre-season of constant training with these guys. They might be wrong, but they would have some form of metrics to be able to explain their decision, we just think a player could do a role because we like snippets or passages of play. If Atley could do his dashes more than twice a game and could position himself to receive the ball he would be an exceptional midfielder, but in the games he has been tried he couldn't and I would imagine he can't at training either which is why he is a flanker instead of the player we all hoped he would become.

The club isn't making any decisions based on spite or without the opportunity if players prove they are capable of executing.

 

[Donkey Chop]

There haven't been a lot of opportunities in recent years, Atley got a look in earlier on, JMac not so much due to injuries. You don't have the same luxury to leave guys in key roles when you are trying to win enough games to make finals and try and get a home final, if we were in rebuild mode and had fewer senior players it is an easier decision to make.



For better or worse, Swallow and Cunnington are our core inside mids, nobody is really going to be displacing them outside of injuries.



I hope he does, and he has plenty of time to show that he is capable, I just am not convinced it is going to be any time soon and he is not going to displace Cunnington, Ziebell or Swallow so what role is he going to play?



I think the club in general is a better judge of players than most punters are, if they are not confident that a player can play a role it would be based on pre-season after pre-season of constant training with these guys. They might be wrong, but they would have some form of metrics to be able to explain their decision, we just think a player could do a role because we like snippets or passages of play. If Atley could do his dashes more than twice a game and could position himself to receive the ball he would be an exceptional midfielder, but in the games he has been tried he couldn't and I would imagine he can't at training either which is why he is a flanker instead of the player we all hoped he would become.

The club isn't making any decisions based on spite or without the opportunity if players prove they are capable of executing.

Yeah look I'm not trying to pretend to know more then the coaches in regards to players best roles. I'm certainly not saying that I'm not happy with our inside core. I'm also not just a robot who's happy to take whatever line the club feeds me a gospel. It's like how a new coach comes in and players change, or when a player changes clubs and exceeds expectation.

We haven't had the opportunity to blood more guys through the middle because of injury? C'mon. Injury breeds opportunity.

I don't want anyone displaced. I just want the load evened a bit. Like when 2 of our staring on ballers go down. s**t even when we're playing a weak side, sure it's a risk but with each time you do it, with experience it becomes less so. It would be great to have the flexibility across the team to move players around as needed. IMO players can be taught that. At least then when the chops are down the coaches have a couple of tricks to pull from the box.

Only a idiot would think the coaches would make any decision out of spite. From what I've seen a lot of the players stay in their set groups in training too.

 

[roos_fanatic08]

I can't speak/write for everyone but I think the idea is that we don't have enough players running through the middle in general.
We leave it to a small group and that's it. It's frustrating.

That was my premise in the OP. We have a significantly less number of guys able to rotate through the midfield than most other clubs.

There is no reason why we could have exposed Mcdonald, McMillan and Aey to a few more centre bounces over the last 18 months to two years: the weekend gone would have been a perfect chance to do so but we persisted with two cripples in dal and cunners

 

[Tas]

Yeah look I'm not trying to pretend to know more then the coaches in regards to players best roles. I'm certainly not saying that I'm not happy with our inside core. I'm also not just a robot who's happy to take whatever line the club feeds me a gospel. It's like how a new coach comes in and players change, or when a player changes clubs and exceeds expectation.

Club hasn't said s**t, they just pick the team based on who they believe are capable of playing whatever roles they need filled.

I often don't agree with decisions the club makes, but perception from the outside is often distorted and lacking in all the information.

It's like how a new coach comes in and players change, or when a player changes clubs and exceeds expectation.

The reverse often happens as well.

We haven't had the opportunity to blood more guys through the middle because of injury? C'mon. Injury breeds opportunity.

I didn't say that.

I think we should have experiment on Friday night rather than flog Cunnington and Dal Santo. We have had a lot of midfielder injuries over the last three years, we have tried other players in the middle, it is not like we have gone with the same handful of players all the time.

I don't want anyone displaced. I just want the load evened a bit. Like when 2 of our staring on ballers go down. s**t even when we're playing a weak side, sure it's a risk but with each time you do it, with experience it becomes less so. It would be great to have the flexibility across the team to move players around as needed. IMO players can be taught that. At least then when the chops are down the coaches have a couple of tricks to pull from the box.

lol so you are telling me that if we rested core mids and we dropped games to teams like Melbourne then you would be okay with that? The sack Scott thread would go into meltdown if that s**t happened.

Our club has constructed this gameplan out of the players we have available and is largely limited by the restriction in terms of accessibility to high-end talent. Brad's eye would likely twitch at the prospect of putting in players he doesn't believe will get enough of the hard ball or stop the opposition from doing so and the gameplan they have constructed would come crumbling down.

It is why Fremantle went from losing 3 H&A games to being woeful in the space of one pre-season with basically the same side, once Fyfe and Mundy went down and Barlow lost form and they had to rely on other players... fubar.

Our club will push Dumont in and he will leapfrog any of these fringe role players, because he is executing the same game plan just at a lower level, the club would have far more confidence in him filling a gap than they would the guys who don't play in the middle.

Only a idiot would think the coaches would make any decision out of spite. From what I've seen a lot of the players stay in their set groups in training too.

At the end of the day, you have to specialise and be good at something, we can't have defenders spending too much time as midfielders, otherwise they wont be good enough in either role.

 

[GarnerSmash]

That was my premise in the OP. We have a significantly less number of guys able to rotate through the midfield than most other clubs.

There is no reason why we could have exposed Mcdonald, McMillan and Aey to a few more centre bounces over the last 18 months to two years: the weekend gone would have been a perfect chance to do so but we persisted with two cripples in dal and cunners

Pretty sure that over the course of preseason the intention was to rotate the following through :
Cunnington
Ziebell
Swallow
Jacobs
Wells
Dal Santo
Higgins
Anderson
Thomas

All 9 were considered best 22 at first bounce and we have lost 3 to LTI's. Then on Saturday we lost another and had 2 crocked. Thimas got a run in there at some point.

So all preseaon we trained for the half forwards to be involved in rotations with the likes of Cunners, JZ and Wells resting in the front half. Then we lost our half forwards capable of rotating through the middle. And a mid rotation in Jacobs.

The issue with rotating half backs theough the guts is that you have to then play resting mids in defensive roles. Not sure that is such a great outcome for a few reasons. Firstly i think it pretty clear that as defenders our resting mids make great forwards. Secondly the premise of the 'defensive group'. I also think it clear that it is this part or the ground where having a really settled unit is most important.

Regardless we would have been pushing s**t up hill moving Ats or McDonald into the guts on Satdee because we then would have needed to replace them with an unconcious Swallow and half paced Dal and Cunners. I think the logic was that the settled defensive group are best placed to stem the Geelong flood once it hits them, then we counter, but the countering part ended up being too hard as we were down mids.

I love the idea of having Ats and McDonald in the guts for spurts but we have gone with half forward rotations and a settled defensive unit as the preferred method of resting the mids and frankly it makes sense.

 

[Hearts to hearts]

Pretty sure that over the course of preseason the intention was to rotate the following through :
Cunnington
Ziebell
Swallow
Jacobs
Wells
Dal Santo
Higgins
Anderson
Thomas

All 9 were considered best 22 at first bounce and we have lost 3 to LTI's. Then on Saturday we lost another and had 2 crocked. Thimas got a run in there at some point.

So all preseaon we trained for the half forwards to be involved in rotations with the likes of Cunners, JZ and Wells resting in the front half. Then we lost our half forwards capable of rotating through the middle. And a mid rotation in Jacobs.

The issue with rotating half backs theough the guts is that you have to then play resting mids in defensive roles. Not sure that is such a great outcome for a few reasons. Firstly i think it pretty clear that as defenders our resting mids make great forwards. Secondly the premise of the 'defensive group'. I also think it clear that it is this part or the ground where having a really settled unit is most important.

Regardless we would have been pushing s**t up hill moving Ats or McDonald into the guts on Satdee because we then would have needed to replace them with an unconcious Swallow and half paced Dal and Cunners. I think the logic was that the settled defensive group are best placed to stem the Geelong flood once it hits them, then we counter, but the countering part ended up being too hard as we were down mids.

I love the idea of having Ats and McDonald in the guts for spurts but we have gone with half forward rotations and a settled defensive unit as the preferred method of resting the mids and frankly it makes sense.

I hadn't thought of it that way, but it does make sense, even at U10s - defence is a hard job to do part-time. Losing all those HFs has really messed with the season - amazing to be in the top group with ten wins so far when you think about it.

 

[Donkey Chop]

That's all well and good but on Saturday (and normally) we didn't have a 'back 6'.

Tarrant, Thompson, Firrito, Macmillan, McKenzie, Atley, McDonald & Mullett

That's 8

Can't tell me we couldn't have changed things around a bit.

 

[shintemaster]

Regardless we would have been pushing s**t up hill moving Ats or McDonald into the guts on Satdee because we then would have needed to replace them with an unconcious Swallow and half paced Dal and Cunners. I think the logic was that the settled defensive group are best placed to stem the Geelong flood once it hits them, then we counter, but the countering part ended up being too hard as we were down mids.

Agree with pretty much all of your post and particularly this, I was more than comfortable with retaining the backline setup. I don't necessarily have an issue with the midfield performance on Saturday - that was a particularly tough set of circumstances to counter. I did say in another thread that I would have preferred to push our bigger forwards up, possibly there was a fitness issue there with Drew (neck) and Waite (whatever) - that does highlight why taking players into games under a question mark is dangerous, particularly lots of them. A fit Daw in might have meant Goldy resting forward most of the game (and helping him while under duress) or replacing one of the others if they are playing with significant niggles.

Still, assuming all who take the field are fit before hand I would have liked to have seen Waite and Drew both play well up field. I can understand however how a 5-6min run on can be a short amount of time to make adjustment, we were up at half time and while I thought that it was obvious that Geelong would hit us as hard between the eyes and run hard after half time - perhaps it wasn't so to the club or they thought we were still holding up well...

Too long, too boring version.

I'd have emptied the forwardline first and hoped to get them over the top while stacking the defensive side of the ground and the midfield with extra players.

 

[GarnerSmash]

That's all well and good but on Saturday (and normally) we didn't have a 'back 6'.

Tarrant, Thompson, Firrito, Macmillan, McKenzie, Atley, McDonald & Mullett

That's 8

Can't tell me we couldn't have changed things around a bit.

Macmillan ain't a defender really. More a winger like Gibson but one who sweeps deeper. The rest of the guys generally get assignments for the weeks with back up matches organised in case opponents get off the leash or go down during the game, but even if they did get a run in the middle it would have required a hobbled mid to play either a man on man role or one that requires a *load of running. Not ideal.

 

[shintemaster]

Macmillan ain't a defender really. More a winger like Gibson but one who sweeps deeper. The rest of the guys generally get assignments for the weeks with back up matches organised in case opponents get off the leash or go down during the game, but even if they did get a run in the middle it would have required a hobbled mid to play either a man on man role or one that requires a ****load of running. Not ideal.

Yep. That's why I'd have robbed the forward line - which was arguably underperforming when it comes to the big guys anyway.

 

[GarnerSmash]

Yep. That's why I'd have robbed the forward line - which was arguably underperforming when it comes to the big guys anyway.

Yeah, fair call. Somewhat heavily defensive but when under siege ya gotta do what ya gotta do to stay alive.

 

[Donkey Chop]

Macmillan ain't a defender really. More a winger like Gibson but one who sweeps deeper. The rest of the guys generally get assignments for the weeks with back up matches organised in case opponents get off the leash or go down during the game, but even if they did get a run in the middle it would have required a hobbled mid to play either a man on man role or one that requires a ****load of running. Not ideal.

Yeah I do understand that. I get what you mean about MacMillian but at the very least he's a defensive mid. I'm talking about playing in the guts.

While I'm frustrated by Saturday night, I've been on this for a while, we don't have enough flexibility across our 22. Against the Cats we really got shown up in that regard, while injuries obviously played a massive role, it also showed how inflexible we are.

I think to get better we need to start giving more players short bursts on the inside.

 

[Donkey Chop]

Example.

Nahas breaks his finger, can't handle the ball.
Move Nahas to defence
Move McDonald to the middle
Move Cunnington Forward

 

[GarnerSmash]

Yeah I do understand that. I get what you mean about MacMillian but at the very least he's a defensive mid. I'm talking about playing in the guts.

While I'm frustrated by Saturday night, I've been on this for a while, we don't have enough flexibility across our 22. Against the Cats we really got shown up in that regard, while injuries obviously played a massive role, it also showed how inflexible we are.

I think to get better we need to start giving more players short bursts on the inside.

I reckon youre right in that we need more players capable of playing mid minutes. Playing Nahas, Harvey and Thomas, as well as an extra tall up forward really limits the options. Not sure how many teams have 6 blokes in their forward half who rarely if ever go onball.

 

[GarnerSmash]

Example.

Nahas breaks his finger, can't handle the ball.
Move Nahas to defence
Move McDonald to the middle
Move Cunnington Forward

Opposition coach.

Nahas cant spoil. Isolate Nahas one on one and go through his player.

 

[Donkey Chop]

Opposition coach.

Nahas cant spoil. Isolate Nahas one on one and go through his player.

Totally. At least we've got more of an opportunity to win the ball in the first place though.

Also as it were. Opposition coach, Cunnington can't run, Swallow off. Rotate as much as possible and spread hard from the contest and we'll break them.

What I'm suggesting might not work.

What the caches did, we know failed

 

[King Corey]

What the caches did, we know failed

Keep the computer talk out of it egghead.

 

[Donkey Chop]

Keep the computer talk out of it egghead.

Sorry I'm not sure whether I should be offended or flattered? Or both?