Merged Thread - All Team Changes Discussion for North game

[acuguy]

I would still like to see the blokes who are more likely to get there hands on the ball at clearances in the team. Proud to me is one of them, if Schmidt was impressing me on AFLQtube then i would be pushing his case as well. Hawksley is one that catches my eye as well, he has real dash. I am also becoming a fan of Phil Smith- he carries the ball well and is quite strong.

Sometimes i think the team ethos thing is overplayed, you need to get your cattle right and then the team ethos carries from that.

 

[acuguy]

I think it's simply a matter of there being a lot that the humble supporters don't know.

Of course there is, but blind faith in the club is not the go of passionate supporters.

 

[Grimreepah]

Of course there is, but blind faith in the club is not the go of passionate supporters.

I don't see why someone who has faith in the club is less of a supporter than someone who doesn't.

The way I see it people are saying Proud should be in the team and others are saying hang on maybe there are valid reasons why he's not in the team, and what might those be.

Ultimately we are pretty much completely excluded from the decision making process. We all have our opinions on who should be in the team and who shouldn't, but I don't think it's right to stomp up and down when the club doesn't agree, because when you don't know the decision making process it is hard to critique it.

 

[Quigley]

I don't see why someone who has faith in the club is less of a supporter than someone who doesn't.

The way I see it people are saying Proud should be in the team and others are saying hang on maybe there are valid reasons why he's not in the team, and what might those be.

Ultimately we are pretty much completely excluded from the decision making process. We all have our opinions on who should be in the team and who shouldn't, but I don't think it's right to stomp up and down when the club doesn't agree, because when you don't know the decision making process it is hard to critique it.

Grim,

I am not critiquing the decision making process merely the decision. Let me explain slowly - Iiiittttsss beeecaussssse IIIII ammmm allllllwayyyssss riiiiightttttt. Just ask my wife I am sure she will be happy to confirm.


The sooner the club comes to realise that and follow my every suggestion is the sooner the Lions will be an economic power house going throught he season undefeated.

See simple.

 

[Athomas]

Jmac is listed as injured for another week.

Damn, from a test two weeks in a row to 1 week!

gl to Brissy this week!

 

[kimp]

Of course there is, but blind faith in the club is not the go of passionate supporters.

You must be right and I'm not a passionate supporter.

Did you actually read what Dalziell had to say?


I'm a big believer in a player doing what's right for the team. If there are iffy performances while the team gets used to working to a plan then so be it. I'd much rather that than some reactionary team philosophy. That is what works in finals. We proved it in 2001-2004.

(I would put a rider on the above but sometimes it's best to be extreme to get a point across)

 

[John]

Of course there is, but blind faith in the club is not the go of passionate supporters.

It is condescending remarks like this that make me less and less inclined to contribute any more.

 

[Quigley]

You must be right and I'm not a passionate supporter.

Did you actually read what Dalziell had to say?


I'm a big believer in a player doing what's right for the team. If there are iffy performances while the team gets used to working to a plan then so be it. I'd much rather that than some reactionary team philosophy. That is what works in finals. We proved it in 2001-2004.

(I would put a rider on the above but sometimes it's best to be extreme to get a point across)

Given the guys currently occupying the relevant positions is the plan not winning the ball, following your man around without doing anything to stop him getting the ball, not supporting your team mates, not running hard enough and not hitting targets when you get the chance? I would expect not and so why are they still playing?

In our premiership years we were also big on rewarding performance and that is what I am advocating especially when it is a young guy in a position of need and who happens to be up for contract renewal at the end of the year. Taking account of his Suncoast form over the course of the year is there anyone who thinks he hasn't improved? Is there anyone who thinks his onfield performances excluding any extranious theories does not warrant a game in our current position?

If I was I was him I think I would be getting extremely frustrated and getting to the stage where I would be saying thanks Lions but I am going to go and play for a team that values what I can do. The biggest loser in that scenario would be the Lions.

Given circumstances and relative performances we have everything to gain and not much to lose in playing Proud. Considering our form over the last 5 weeks does anyone really think we will be a worse team with him in it?

 

[kimp]

We need to look at what Leigh did in his first two years to get the team ready for 2001-2004. We also lost a lot of good players during that time. I don't care about the individuals, to me it's about building a great team.

Look I'vr just accepted that we're not as far along as we'd all hoped. We need to scrape into the finals this year for the experience, have a great off-season and come back next year HARD.

 

[Grimreepah]

Is there anyone who thinks his onfield performances excluding any extranious theories does not warrant a game in our current position?

I watched the game against the Sharks and Proud was good but not a stand out. If we rephrase the question 'did he demand selection?' then the answer is no.

 

[Quigley]

We need to look at what Leigh did in his first two years to get the team ready for 2001-2004. We also lost a lot of good players during that time. I don't care about the individuals, to me it's about building a great team.

Look I'vr just accepted that we're not as far along as we'd all hoped. We need to scrape into the finals this year for the experience, have a great off-season and come back next year HARD.

He played the young guys and rewarded performance.

What I am saying here Kimp is that it is not like the guys currently playing have been doing the things they should be. Why use that excuse to keep one guy out of the side and several in there. If anything dropping one or two of the non-performing veterans is likely to have a much more significant effect on culture than punishing a young player for barely perceptible shortcomings.

 

[Quigley]

I watched the game against the Sharks and Proud was good but not a stand out. If we rephrase the question 'did he demand selection?' then the answer is no.

Taking his three most recent Suncoast games as a whole which player has put himself forward the most? 2 BOGs and named amongst the best (yes the Sharks game)

The answer would have to be Proud (although some case maybe could be made for Clousten).

 

[John]

Given circumstances and relative performances we have everything to gain and not much to lose in playing Proud. Considering our form over the last 5 weeks does anyone really think we will be a worse team with him in it?

Lets just play him. I have never had an issue with him being selected.
I am actually worried for him though as he is being portrayed (though denied) as the 2nd coming. Imagine that a 2nd year player. Poor sod.

I also suspect that some around here are actually not that interested in really having in intelligent discussion and are in fact looking for opportunities to boost their egos in the furure. If (hopefully) he is the 2nd coming I am looking forward to the "told you so"s. Booooooooooring!

 

[Quigley]

To tell you the truth I am more against what I perceive as the injustice of him not being selected rather than how well he will do when he gets another chance.

If he gets a chance I think he would be looking at 12-15 possessions, 3 or so tackles, 3 or 4 clearances and maybe a goal. Solid but not spectacular.

I will come out and say that last year I was not really on the Proud bandwagon. He did impress me a lot in the preseason though and have been pushing for him since.

 

[John]

To tell you the truth I am more against what I perceive as the injustice of him not being selected rather than how well he will do when he gets another chance.

If he gets a chance I think he would be looking at 12-15 possessions, 3 or so tackles, 3 or 4 clearances and maybe a goal. Solid but not spectacular.

I will come out and say that last year I was not really on the Proud bandwagon. He did impress me a lot in the preseason though and have been pushing for him since.

Injustice? Odd term Quigs. You imply a conspiracy. I would imagine that if the selection committee thought that with him in the team we were certainties to win they would not hesitate to select him or anyone else running around in the ressies for that matter. I would have thought that Mathews as head coach and a reputation on the line would not be making a non selection because of maybe some sense of arrogance towards a 2nd year player and treating him without justice. Not sure I understand why you would think that this in unjust.

 

[Grimreepah]

Taking his three most recent Suncoast games as a whole which player has put himself forward the most? 2 BOGs and named amongst the best (yes the Sharks game)

The answer would have to be Proud (although some case maybe could be made for Clousten).

But Suncoast form does not necessarily translate into senior form, and the Lions would have other indicators that would suggest who is and isn't ready to take the step up. Quigley, the main thing I disagree with you about is your thinking that fitness isn't an issue, because to me it seems the central issue.

Proud sounds like he has been playing fairly well especially of late, and he would no doubt be in strong contention for a call up. But my guess is that the Lions will be making a decision not just on form, but whether he has the fitness to take that form to senior level. Basically the reasoning would be there's no point being hard at the ball if you can't get near it, there's no point be a good tackler if you can't catch your man, etc.

I also suspect Proud knows he hasn't been ready for the seniors and is not bemused like people on here. As spectators a lack of running power is not so obvious as say a lack of skills, but as a player he would be acutely aware of his limitations and how this affects the team. I would hope that rather than 'Leigh why can't I get a game?' it would be 'Leigh, I know what I have to do and I will get there'.

 

[Quigley]

Injustice? Odd term Quigs. You imply a conspiracy. I would imagine that if the selection committee thought that with him in the team we were certainties to win they would not hesitate to select him or anyone else running around in the ressies for that matter. I would have thought that Mathews as head coach and a reputation on the line would not be making a non selection because of maybe some sense of arrogance towards a 2nd year player and treating him without justice. Not sure I understand why you would think that this in unjust.

The team is not a certainty to win whether he is in the team or not. That is hardly the issue. The issue is whether his performances justify selection and from my perspective they do. I think the injustice arises from the fact that poorer performing players are being selected ahead of him and retaining their spots.

 

[Quigley]

But Suncoast form does not necessarily translate into senior form, and the Lions would have other indicators that would suggest who is and isn't ready to take the step up. Quigley, the main thing I disagree with you about is your thinking that fitness isn't an issue, because to me it seems the central issue.

Proud sounds like he has been playing fairly well especially of late, and he would no doubt be in strong contention for a call up. But my guess is that the Lions will be making a decision not just on form, but whether he has the fitness to take that form to senior level. Basically the reasoning would be there's no point being hard at the ball if you can't get near it, there's no point be a good tackler if you can't catch your man, etc.

I also suspect Proud knows he hasn't been ready for the seniors and is not bemused like people on here. As spectators a lack of running power is not so obvious as say a lack of skills, but as a player he would be acutely aware of his limitations and how this affects the team. I would hope that rather than 'Leigh why can't I get a game?' it would be 'Leigh, I know what I have to do and I will get there'.

Grim the Lions played him earlier in the year when he was likely less fit and in worse form and his problem has never been getting to contests but rather getting to space.

I point again also that he could be equally as effective up forward and his perceived lack of running power would be less of an issue. Also Leigh's perchant for giving lesser TOG to guys starting out would also reduce this as a factor. I am not saying that there is not an issue but rather that I don't see it being enough to keep him out of the side.

I hope though that you are right about his attitude as I think he could be an important part of the team going forward.

 

[John]

The team is not a certainty to win whether he is in the team or not. That is hardly the issue. The issue is whether his performances justify selection and from my perspective they do. I think the injustice arises from the fact that poorer performing players are being selected ahead of him and retaining their spots.

I beg to differ. It has to be the issue. This is why we are having this debate. Changes to the side for a vital game this weekend. We are a chance of finals footy and until we are not we must pick a team to win.

As to poorer performing players I have not seen all the ressies games but after the couple that I have I have never once thought that those elevated after those games have not deserved to be selected. Using Sherman as a recent example he stood out and I mean "stood out".
IMO If Albert gets elevated he in my eyes deserves to.

 

[Hollow Knight]

I think everyone here is excited about Proud (and many have been long before certain bandwagons kicked off this year). I think he's more than overdue for another senior berth.

Its just that some people are pushing the wagon so fiercely that by comparison, anyone trying to objectively assess why he hasn't been selected gives the illusion that they don't rate him.

Its really quite funny now.

 

[acuguy]

Let me address my passionate supporters don't have blind faith in the club comment, i didn't say it to elevate anyone as a supporter over another supporter, my intention was to promote the thought amongst all of us (we are all passionate supporters) that the club may not always be right with what they are doing. Posting doesn't allow for tone and when i re read what i wrote, i realise why some posters have take exception to the comment, poor worded, may apologies.

The Proud debate is interesting, i have been a keen fan of Albert. My main issue for selecting him is we need another in an under mid who is able to win the contested ball and then distribute it effectively, i think Proud can do that, the whole messiah/second coming is a nice idea, but the reality is 15 touches a game from Proud would benefit our team. If he isn't fit enough to run out a game then maybe we should play him, there is no steeper learning curve then being thrown in the deep end.

Albert plays a very physical and aggressive game plan, to execute his style of play and then be able to run all day like a Stiller etc requires absolute elite fitness, this will take him at least 4-5 pre seasons. Physical footy is taxing on your body and leaves you looking for more petrol tickets, i think this applies to Proudy.

 

[Quigley]

I won't be able to watch the game on Sat - Proud is sure to play now.

 

[blynd_freddie]

If he isn't fit enough to run out a game then maybe we should play him, there is no steeper learning curve then being thrown in the deep end.

Why would you suggest letting someone who is not yet a "strong swimmer" attempt to rescue a "drowning team"?

Acuguy, I also see Albie still on a learning curve, one cannot question that he has a physical and aggressive game but he must learn to this legally.

By putting him in the same pack as Brent Harvey will surely only increase the occurrence of frees for North, twofold.

 

[acuguy]

Why would you suggest letting someone who is not yet a "strong swimmer" attempt to rescue a "drowning team"?

Acuguy, I also see Albie still on a learning curve, one cannot question that he has a physical and aggressive game but he must learn to this legally.

By putting him in the same pack as Brent Harvey will surely only increase the occurrence of frees for North, twofold.

At least Harvey will earn them! Look we need another ball winner at the clearance, Proud is the best at this outside of the seniors, give him a crack.

 

[blynd_freddie]

Yeah I understand your point but at least a turn over from an ineffective kick is 20,40,50 metres down the paddock not at the contest. North will most likely play a small running side and similar in game plan to the Dogs, Dons and Tigers I can see Hooper adding pace but I'm still not sold on Albie... But I sooooooo want be wrong on this, trust me!