The future of South African Cricket

[The Speaker]

With the greatest respect, I think you have a very minimal knowledge of the social constructs that make up South Africa.

I'd find it more respectable if you actually answered the question.

Well that’s a reasonable point but given that coloured people make up an enourmous majority (isn’t it like 90 per cent?) if the population it’s fair to say that the percentage of the low socio economic population is even higher again so of course it’s going to favour those of colour

So it's used because it's easier, rather than because it's accurate?

 

[Buzzasto DaSilva]

I'd find it more respectable if you actually answered the question.

So it's used because it's easier, rather than because it's accurate?

The social constructs of South Africa are the reason that skin related quotas must exist. The government and sporting bodies within South Africa have a far greater insight into the need for quotas than somebody speaking with white privilege on the other side of the world.

 

[The Speaker]

The social constructs of South Africa are the reason that skin related quotas must exist. The government and sporting bodies within South Africa have a far greater insight into the need for quotas than somebody speaking with white privilege on the other side of the world.

Could you sound any more like a parody?

 

[PhatBoy]

Could you sound any more like a parody?

Is he incorrect?

 

[The Speaker]

Is he incorrect?

On multiple counts

 

[Buzzasto DaSilva]

On multiple counts

Please elaborate.

 

[iluvparis]

Well that’s a reasonable point but given that coloured people make up an enourmous majority (isn’t it like 90 per cent?) if the population it’s fair to say that the percentage of the low socio economic population is even higher again so of course it’s going to favour those of colour

Anyone one who isn't a complete closest racist knows that the correlation between skin colour and economic status in a country like South Africa is basically 1

 

[Santana]

Simon Harmer (would be challenging for best Test spinner in the world if still playing international cricket)

Doesn't he qualify for England pretty soon, maybe even next year? Looks like he'll get his chance to prove it.


Also the suggestion that Bavuma is legitimately deserving to keep his spot is laughable. If that is true than the South African batting stocks are truly dire.

 

[Buzzasto DaSilva]

Also the suggestion that Bavuma is legitimately deserving to keep his spot is laughable. If that is true than the South African batting stocks are truly dire.

Name a player not playing because of Bavuma that has been more effective when in the side?

 

[Santana]

Name a player not playing because of Bavuma that has been more effective when in the side?

I think you're a little bit too invested that you'd shoot down any name regardless of how legitimate given to you so that is a little bit pointless isn't it? It doesn't seem there is much Bavuma could do for people like you to stop backing him. For people to defend a record like Bavuma's so vehemently, then there is clearly something else going on.

There are more than a few batsmen who have better FC records than Bavuma. Yes, FC records don't always translate into good international results but are we really meant to believe that not one of these guys if given the plentiful of chances that Bavuma has been given couldn't give a return of 36 tests, 1 ton and an average of 33 if they were given the same level of chances? Not many would be given the leniency that Bavuma has been given.

Hey, maybe I'm wrong, maybe Bavuma's continuous selection is actually deserved. If that is the case then your middle order batting stocks are well and truly dire it would seem.

 

[The Speaker]

Please elaborate.

Racism of any kind is morally wrong, making skin colour quotas unjustifiable.

The governing party of South Africa has always been much more interested in pushing forward its ideology and/or enriching themselves (whichever is more necessary at the time) than in doing what's best for all South Africans, and the idea that they 'know best' is laughable.

You know nothing about my personal background.

Anyone one who isn't a complete closest racist knows that the correlation between skin colour and economic status in a country like South Africa is basically 1

I'm sure the increasing proportion of Afrikaner poor who can't afford to emigrate would be surprised to hear that. Why should they not be included in these quotas, if the intention is to bring up those from underprivileged backgrounds?

 

[Buzzasto DaSilva]

Racism of any kind is morally wrong, making skin colour quotas unjustifiable.

The governing party of South Africa has always been much more interested in pushing forward its ideology and/or enriching themselves (whichever is more necessary at the time) than in doing what's best for all South Africans, and the idea that they 'know best' is laughable.

You know nothing about my personal background.



I'm sure the increasing proportion of Afrikaner poor who can't afford to emigrate would be surprised to hear that. Why should they not be included in these quotas, if the intention is to bring up those from underprivileged backgrounds?

I know nothing about your personal background but I can gauge enough from your posts that your rhetoric is blinded by a flawed ideology that somehow every person in South Africa has an equal opportunity. And for you to label quotas as "racist" says a lot.

When you say best for "all South africans", are you really just referring to the 9% of white South Africans that were allowed to prosper under apartheid?


Quotas are absolutely essential, mostly in lower grades and junior cricket but also at senior level to ensure equal opportunities are afforded to all.

 

[The Speaker]

I know nothing about your personal background but I can gauge enough from your posts that your rhetoric is blinded by a flawed ideology that somehow every person in South Africa has an equal opportunity. And for you to label quotas as "racist" says a lot.

I have never stated that every person in South Africa has an equal opportunity, as that is plainly untrue, just as it is in every country.

I am saying that not all coloured people are less privileged than all white people, and to imply otherwise is itself racist. To bring in a quota system based on skin colour is inherently racist, even if it is perceived as a good thing.

When you say best for "all South africans", are you really just referring to the 9% of white South Africans that were allowed to prosper under apartheid?

No, the ANC works to the detriment of anyone not connected to the party in some way, regardless of skin colour. It is a terrible organisation.

Quotas are absolutely essential, mostly in lower grades and junior cricket but also at senior level to ensure equal opportunities are afforded to all.

Quotas based on socio-economic circumstances in a nation that has vast gulfs between them, and (unlike, say, India) struggles to find places for those from lower socio-economic backgrounds? Fine. But that's not what's happening.

 

[to1994]

Name a player not playing because of Bavuma that has been more effective when in the side?

This is a flawed question because the potential batsman haven't really gotten opportunities. We've had Amla, well past his prime taking up a spot and the last time they bothered to really try a young player was Markram who currently averages 43 with 4 hundreds to Bavuma's 1.

You can also argue that Bavuma got opportunities over Rilee Rossouw and the latter left South African Cricket along with a lot of other talent for reasons that are obvious. Dane Vilas also just hit a double hundred for his county side and I feel he'd be a better specialist bat then a lot of the South African side right now.

We've also just seen Rassie van der Dussen play a lone hand for South Africa in the World Cup and his FC record is better then Bavuma's, he's yet to even get an opportunity.

I don't mean to pick on Bavuma, the quota system hasn't quite affected their bowling because Rabada and Nigidi are so good and both probably deserve best XI over Abbott and Olivier anyway but it absolutely has affected their batting.

 

[iluvparis]

I'm sure the increasing proportion of Afrikaner poor who can't afford to emigrate would be surprised to hear that. Why should they not be included in these quotas, if the intention is to bring up those from underprivileged backgrounds?

Classic argument - but there are poor white people too!?!?! Why don't they get quotas!??!?1

No one is arguing that only black people are poor in South Africa - but as I already stated - unless you are a complete racist it is blatantly obvious that the correlation between skin colour and socioeconomic background in South Africa is basically 1.

 

[The Speaker]

Classic argument - but there are poor white people too!?!?! Why don't they get quotas!??!?1

No one is arguing that only black people are poor in South Africa - but as I already stated - unless you are a complete racist it is blatantly obvious that the correlation between skin colour and socioeconomic background in South Africa is basically 1.

Not seeing any attempt on your part to explain why racist quotas are superior to socio-economic ones.

 

[iluvparis]

Not seeing any attempt on your part to explain why racist quotas are superior to socio-economic ones.

That's the point you don't understand - the result will be the same either way - hence the correlation comment.

 

[The Speaker]

That's the point you don't understand - the result will be the same either way - hence the correlation comment.

You speak of me not understanding? Ha. It won't be the same, because people like the very much privileged Kagiso Rabada are included in the racial quotas but wouldn't be included in socio-economic quotas. Unless you think that he isn't privileged because he's black, even though his father is a doctor, his mother is a lawyer and he attended one of the most prestigious private schools in the country.

 

[iluvparis]

Ok - so if we switch from skin colour quotas to socio economic quotas and take random samples from each - how many less coloureds would we expect there to be in the side on the basis of the quota

Answer: none - it would be exactly the same.

 

[The Speaker]

Ok - so if we switch from skin colour quotas to socio economic quotas and take random samples from each - how many less coloureds would we expect there to be in the side on the basis of the quota

Answer: none - it would be exactly the same.

Actually, you may even have more in the side, and will have done so through a method which isn't morally reprehensible.

 

[iluvparis]

Actually, you may even have more in the side, and will have done so through a method which isn't morally reprehensible.

I lol'd

 

[The Speaker]

I lol'd

LOL all you like, but there is not one good thing that has ever been achieved by dividing people according to their skin colour, and there never will be.

 

[Park cricketer]

I'm not South African and I don't claim to fully understand the socioeconomic and racial differences in that country but I can provide an Indian perspective because we have similar inequalities based on caste structure and we have had a similar reservation system that aims to uplift the downtrodden among the lowest castes. India has always had disparities in its society as a result of centuries long caste system. That gap only got widened as a result of 200 years of painful colonisation because the British elites preferred the upper castes because they were the only educated class while the uneducated lower castes were largely used as hard labour in plantations. As a result, at independence nearly 70% of India's population was below the poverty line, most of it was formed by the lower most castes. After independence, India started the "affirmative action plan programme" in 1950 in a bid to alleviate these disparities and form a more equal society.

This resulted in the upliftment of vast swathes of downtrodden people because they were reserved certain amount of seats (nearly 50-60% in various categories) in educational and administrative institutions because providing someone education and work is the easiest way to lift a generation out of poverty. Now the right wing has been rising in India and you can find a lot of RW people criticising this reservation system and denigrating the students who get admission under these quotas as "quota students" (insinuating that they're of inferior quality and only got a seat through a "quota" and not through merit). There are exceptions but there's a correlation with caste and the leaning towards RW politics in India, the general thumb rule is that the higher a person's caste, generally the more right wing he is.

I'll try to answer some of the common questions raised by the right wing with regards to the reservation system.

Why should there be a reservation system?

Because it is the easiest way to provide targeted upliftment of the downtrodden who have been oppressed because of their identity for years together. To provide some context, 70% of India's population was below the poverty line. After nearly 70 years of the reservation system, the number currently stands at 2.8% of India's population.

I did not commit those atrocities, so why should I be published for something that happened when I wasn't even born?

Nobody insinuates that the current people are responsible for the condition of the poor and downtrodden. They are nevertheless benefactors of that privilege which has been passed over the years even if unintentional.

Why should reservation be based on caste instead of economic based reservation? There are poor people in upper castes too.

Nobody says that there are no poor people in the upper castes. But on an average, there are far more poor people in the lower castes than the upper castes. If you take a median income evaluation on different castes, you'll find that the number is vastly lower in the lowermost castes when compared to the upper castes. A few affluent persons from the lower castes benefiting from the reservation does not negate this fact.

Secondly the biggest point is that the reservation system was implemented to "reverse" years of injustice meted out to the lower castes, to put them on an equal footing. The very notion of referring to them as "quota" students is wrong and actually condescending too because they have a right to those benefits because of years of being deprived of the same opportunities as the upper castes. In India, even if two people (one from lower caste and one from upper caste) have the same amount of money and qualifications and both attend a job interview, there are far more chances of the upper caste person getting employment because that is how class privilege works. So when you ask why reservation is not extended to the upper caste people, you are arguing on the premise that both classes are on an equal footing which is entirely wrong. When some community was discriminated based on its identity, it is only fair that it gets benefited based on the same identity to reverse those injustices. For the privileged, the mere thought of reversing the effects of privilege accumulated over the years through unfair means feels like discrimination.

Besides one of the reasons why an economic based system won't work is because of the fact that it's far more easier to fake one's income than fake one's caste (or race in the case of SA) and it's easier for the privileged people to do so rather than the lower castes.

Is the reservation system going to be permanent?

No, it should not be a permanent system but should be in place as long as the disparity exists. India is currently a low middle income country, when it becomes atleast a high middle income country, then debates can start about the use of the reservation system. Discrimination existed for centuries, you can't question the affirmative policy after just 70 years in action.

I talked about the caste sytem and reservation policy in India because it is largely similar to the racial issues and quota system in SA. Replace "caste" with "race" and reservation with quota system and I think it would largely apply to the South African conversation as well.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Gonna take a rain check because i have NFI about the inequalities of south africa and im not going to pretend to either.

Bavuma is great. Absolute fighter. Pointing out his runs is probably not the best way to describe or point out his importance for the SA team. Yes the game the runs are counted. He's an absolute stabilizer in the middle order.

Wouldnt call him young however. Clearly they still have some world class bowlers, But their batting stocks looks thin. Puts us in the same boat really

 

[Ishikawa]

I reckon Bavuma is reasonable and to be honest even with his most recent series being horrible is likely their best option at 6. Calling him great is a big stretch though (unless solely referring to his fielding!).